2015-07-20 02:23:28

Erm, the only issue of that answer for me is that it does give an explaination to followers on the authors being true, but there's stillt he question if it was not interfered with and altered by others or by the author itself after the fact for some reason.  Considering some of the texts that could of been in the bible were left out for varios political, or contrary beliefs, there is human influence on the book that can muddy the text a bit.  However, still reading through it, I do get a message built together that is fairly consistently formed, but uh, the text does have oddities.  For all I know that is intentional and means something but....eh.  Back to reading again.

   Also, we cannot just say Musims are wrong just like that.  It is kind of diving into the same methods some people dismiss Christianity with due to lack of actual artifacts and accurate historical information.  Also Islam probably also has its share of historical information and digs that support some of their claims just as much.  (Also better combat edicate apparently with captured lands on their crusades back in the past, that's a plus for them honestly for those who actually keep to their virtues instead of applying/disapplying it by will).

2015-07-20 02:36:37

@Bladestorm: You never considered viewing the universe itself as God then? That surely would make it intelligent enough to create life.
Also, when you take the vast size of the universe into consideration, along with how long it has existed... I'm talking about more than ten thousand years, I can't really see how it's such a miracle. The only reason I can think of for thinking that life is such a great miracle is because we can reason. The problem I have with your hypothesis is that you're asuming that there must be a reaning to our existence and that Things can't just happen by random chance. That's your choice though, and of course you're free to do so smile

And if we're talking impirical evidence, I don't think evolution can be tested either. Science can easily find evidence of species mutating, but mutations are almost always bad and even perceived benefitial ones are at the cost of something else. If someone is told when their wife is pregnant that their baby has a mutation, no one ever asks, oh, is it a good one? Therefore, mutation can not be how we would have evolved, if that's how it had happened.

I would love to know where you have gotten the idea of mutations always being bad from. Sure, some most likely haven't been the best ones, and have therefore been sorted out through the natural selection. The ones that mutated in a benefitial direction naturally had better chances of surviving. You keep talking about archeological and historical evidence that backs up your claims too, I can't recall you showing any of these.
Further more you're saying that evolution, and with that mutations, can't be observed directly. Do I even need to say anything here? To be honest I don't even know what to say, so I'll just throw you another link... Why should I say something others have already written so nicely: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic … eationist/

To see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4

2015-07-20 13:24:21

I'm setting myself up for ridicule, but, I stand as a Christian.  My beliefs ae not based on science, but on a deep seeded faith that there is a God and that for me, *for me*, He is very real.  I've seen evidences in my own life, and those are good enough for me.  According to science, I shouldn't even be alive.  I was born at mid term in my mother's pregnancy over 40 years ago weighing in at less than 2 pounds.  I am a healthy and sound individual with only my blindness as a result.  I've seen food appear on my porch when mmy folks were worried about where that food was going to come from.  A person brought it, but, I believe that God lead them to do so.  I could argue but, I think it is not a matter for argument, but a choice of what one chooses to believe.  I will not condemn another for what one believes, nor will I say what you believe is wrong.  I just know what I believe, and it is the right choice for me.  In so saying, I wish all of you a very blessed day.

There is way too much blood in my caffine system!  I require coffee in great amounts for total thought processes.

2015-07-20 15:26:13

bladestorm360 wrote:

SpiralingWyvern, I never said muslams were wrong, Jesus said that. I was simply confirming his words.

Let's look at some of the stuff that Jesus said... This one is to a Roman dude, certainly not a Jew or Christian:
Matthew 8:5-13New International Version (NIV)
The Faith of the Centurion
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.


And Again on the cross. Keep in mind that we have no idea what religion, if any, these criminals were leaning towards:
32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed.33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left.34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”
38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

And here, a last one, where it, to me, sounds like he's quite open to whatever form of way you choose to follow him as long as your intentions are good:
John 4New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
4 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John—2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4 Now he had to go through Samaria.5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph.6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.
7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?”8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
17 “I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband.18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

As for the universe being god, then what created the universe? Only the god of the bible makes a claim to being eternal, that is, he existed eternally before the creation of the universe, and will exist afterword eternally. So God doesn't need a creator, whereas a finite universe would certainly need a beginning cause. Either God is that beginning cause, or there is somehow an infinite chain of cause and effect going back indefinitely, and that invalidates the scientific law of cause and effect because there would be no beginning cause.

Since time along with Space was created at the beginning of the universe it really makes zero sense to say, that God existed eternally before that. Likewise it's pointless to say that he will whenever the universe is gone, since it will eliminate time as well.
As for the infinite chain I'll give you the big bounce, which is, I'll gladly admit that, still a hypothesis, but still one that people are looking into and researching on.

To see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4

2015-07-21 16:05:25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
Your statement about Jesus saying that Muslims are wrong just confused me a bit, and when I read those quotes I can't really imagine him saying that either, unless he changes his mind from day to day.
And while the big bounce can't be proven or disproved I mainly sent you in that direction as a suggestion on how to solve the problem you brought up.
I haven't really seen any proper forces or conditions for the claim that Earth is only 6000 years old either though. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of Things pointing in the 4.5 billion years direction instead.
I watched a debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham yesterday, if you haven't done that too, I can recommend it though it's about three or so hours long. Ham never really gave any solid proofs to back up his claim. Instead he kept pointing to his own interpretation of the Bible, a book that has went through a myriad of translations, editions and rewritings throughout the last two to three mellinia... I think the safest option would be to agree on disagreeing. We both know what we believe in. Although I'd gladly change my believe if the right proofs were presented. I can't for example see what stops God from sending a new son to us. I'm sure we can agree that the World is still filled with sin, probably more now than on Jesus' time.
Another thing is... We agree on the fact that Jesus took our sins on his own shoulders and gave us forgiveness and what not... If it is a sin to not believe in him, then why do I still go to Hell? Unless it of course was only the sins from the Fall and up till Jesus' death, in which case I can't really see why it needs to be mentioned since it doesn't affect us all that much. Yes, we know he had that ability and Thus we should pray to him... But if it's just that, then it would fit better as just a mere side comment. Because of that I'll asume that it is all sin from whatever time you pick. Then Again, I guess I am going to Heaven anyway, I'm both baptised and confirmed, so I should be fine.

To see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4

2015-07-21 17:12:58

Well, even though I come at this from a scientific viewpoint I do not in fact believe that science can disprove the existence of God any more than Christians can prove the existence of God. I just do not think the evidence is strong enough to be certain one way or another. I am pretty sure if there were a 100% reliable way for testing and disproving the existence of God the very vocal atheists like Richard Dawkins would beat Christians over the head with it every chance they got.  I have read some of Richard Dawkins books and while interesting from an atheistic viewpoint they aren't full of evidence that can absolutely prove there is no God with any certainty. It is for that reason I feel the best answer to a question like this is an agnostic one. That is to say the evidence as it currently stands is uncertain, and the best answer is we don't know for sure one way or another as far as empirical evidence goes. What I can say is at the end of the day what we have to do as people is make an educated guess, a subjective opinion, on the matter based on what evidence we do have and what makes sense to us.

That said, it isn't that simple. Most people, including myself, do not make decisions on evidence or rationality alone. We are emotional beings with thoughts, feelings, and a personal sense of self which makes us decide matters like this from a more emotional viewpoint than a rational evidence based viewpoint.

For example, in this thread I have read a few messages that express the opinion that life without God is pointless. If science could disprove the existence of God that would make us worthless, make everything pointless, and totally meaningless. This is not the first time I have heard such arguments for God. They aren't the kind of arguments one can fight with evidence because those are subjective viewpoints based on a way a person feels, and what it would mean to that person if God were suddenly removed from their lives or could be proven to be false. Therefore that person's beliefs are justified from an emotional standpoint because he or she has a lot of their personal state of mind invested in that belief. Right, wrong, or otherwise it is an emotional attachment to the belief that can't be proven true or false based on evidence.
However, Christians aren't the only ones who make judgments based on emotion. I'm pretty sure the majority of agnostics, atheists, and humanists have emotional reasons for disbelieving in God. I can't speak for every single one of them, but I can speak for myself.

I have to say my deconversion, if we can call it that, really began when I was around age 7. When I was 7 I started having terrible headaches and began losing the sight in my left eye. Of course, everyone I knew friends, family, ministers, etc were all Christians and they did what Christians always do in such times of trouble. They encouraged me to keep the faith, to pray, and God would make things better. Instead of receiving some miraculous healing my medical condition worsened. In a few years I lost the sight in my right eye. No matter how much I prayed, my family prayed, or anyone else prayed my conditioned continued to get worse. The doctors couldn't do anything for me and God, if he existed, seemed to totally ignore me completely. I can remember nights praying for a healing, begging, pleading, and even crying and nothing ever came of it.

To make a long story short by the time I went to college and began to encounter agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christians they didn't exactly have to twist my arm to convince me there was no god. After all, I had been praying for years and years for some divine intervention with none forthcoming. It made rational sense to me if there was no god, that all I had been told was a lie, that he could not or would not heal me. He simply did not exist. It made much more sense than the various explanation my family, friends, and ministers would give me when I ask them why God wasn't healing me. All their answers just seemed like a bunch of excuses than explanations.

The bottom line here is this. I don't believe God exists because I was a believer, grew up a believer, but when the chips were down, when I really and truly needed help from God, he was not there. He didn't do anything for me. Why should I believe in or worship a God who can not or will not be there for someone in his or her greatest hour of need?

I realize my reasons are pretty subjective. They don't prove anything in a scientific sense. However, as far as personal proof goes I have all the evidence I need to pretty much conclude religion is a sham. If someone wants to prove me wrong let him or her give me my sight back, give me my hearing back, and correct everything else that is wrong with my failing body and then we can talk about the existence of God.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2015-07-21 17:31:02

Bladestorm,

Not sure where you read about Jesus being the leutennant of Muhammad S.A.W but that's not true. Basicly the truth is this. At the end of time, Dajjal, also known as the false masiah, will claim to be Allah and a great war will be waged against the Muslims. Imam Muhammad Al-Mahdi will be our caliph at that time. The Muslims will go out at that time and will fight the Dajjal Insha Allah, accept those who are staying in Mecka and Madinah. Those will be the two protected places from his evil on the face of the earth. Whenever he tries to approach them, angels will draw swords against him and he will be forced to flee. Eventually, Jesus piece be upon him will come from heaven and kill the Dajjal himself with a speare. After that, Allah will tell us Muslims "I have made nations that none of you ccan fight against." Gog and Maggog will break from their trap. Basicly King Dul Carnain, the friend of Ibrahim piece be upon him, built this wall made from molten metal if I remember correctly to keep those two tribes out, for they were causing problems. As we speak, these two tribes are working their socks off trying to pound the wall, saying "Insha Allah." The next day, Allah repairs the whole. However he eventually lets them through and they will cause mischief in the earth. Many people will be led to hell. Jesus piece be upon him will go to a mountain with his companions and pray to Allah, and Allah will destroy them. After that piece will remain until Jesus As dies. The Mahdi will be an adviser to Jesus As. In fact, in a Hadith, the world will be so pieceful that a girl will run at a lion and the lion won't even harm her.
Best regards,
Thunderfist.

2015-07-21 17:32:47

Sorry, minor correction. Jesus will return from a place that Allah has taken him to.

2015-08-02 08:03:58

Hi Bladestorm,

As for the Mahdi, I believe he is true and will come. Jesus will not be a lesser prophet, he will be the Caliph. Regarding Wahabis, not all of them are like that. There are good and bad ones amongst them. What you said can bear some weight. What I mean is, there are people who do claim to be Mahdi. It's not only from the Wahabis, but all across the Muslim world. The guy goes on Tv and essencially claims to be Mahdi, thus leading people astray.

The thing about death really comes about the verses that deal with the kafirun disbelievers. In arabic, kafir has two meanings. 1. Too disbelieve, 2, to knowingly cover up truth with falsehood. So you could have a friendly kafir. What these extremist Brothers and Sisters don't really realise is that if Allah allowed men to marry Christians and Jews, why would then he allow us to kill them without provication accept for our conceived ideas? What's also interesting is that Allah says regarding Christian and Jewish women, "nore take them as secret concubins." So it is clear that once you're married with them, they have the same rights a Muslim Wife would have.
Now there are several reasons why this ignorance exists, and has lead to the growth of organisations like Isis.
1. Islamic websites. There are really bad ones out there, like Islamca, that promote this sort of thing.
2. Parents. It is the responsibility of the Mother and Father to educate the children in the religion, although most of it is best to do by the Mother since the Mother shares a connection with the child that the Father does not have, therefore she can understand her child better and adapt her teaching. Unfortunately, parents sit 24 7 watching Tv,, not praying, and let their children get to their own devices, which, as anyone knows, is bad parenting. Tv should only be watched for a bit.
3. Family influences. The thing about this kind of family is that they indoctrinate children with these damaging beliefs from a young age.
4. Ignorance. People don't read the Qur'an properly.  You can't just understand the Qur'an by reading it. And that's with any religious book. You need to read a comintary. For the Qur'an I suggest read Tafsir Ibn Kathir, it's online and free of charge and very good. Ignorance also means making the wrong sort of friends, whom can influence the person.

What these Muslims don't realise is that Abu-Talib, the uncle of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W, was a non believer, yet the Prophet S.A.W loved him.
Hope this helps. Remember, it wwould better to ask a good Sheikh such as Sheikh Hasan  Ali. They know the Qur'an better than I do and I only know  some of it, so I don't want to say the wrong thing. If you live in the Uk it would be easy to attend his lectures provided they're not too far away. Check his facebook regularly, he regularly posts where his new lectures  will be. Additionally, if you want to get in contact with him, ask Ebrahim collige (just type it into google.) You might be able to contacct him through Hikma online. Don't expect an immediate response because these institutions are quite busy. And the staff may be on holiday. Give it a few weeks before resending the email and hopefully they'll reply.

2015-08-03 08:23:25 (edited by Nocturnus 2015-08-03 08:36:07)

Here's an interesting question I'd like to see answered by those who say they would follow God if he personally presented himself, and I made this question of my own self a year ago just before becoming a Christian, which is why I don't feel any hesitation asking it.
Think about this seriously for just a second and honestly tell me that you would follow Jesus if Jesus came to you and said he was Jesus?  What stops him from being Satan?  What stops him from being an evil apparition trying to deceive you?  What prevents him from simply being a figment of your imagination and you possibly losing your mind?  You could ask him questions, sure.  You could even atempt to gauge by the responses he gives that he is in fact the son of God, but how would you truly know, and why would you honestly believe his answers so quickly if he has left you evidence before and you did not believe?  Would you suddenly believe it if he told you bladestorm or Nocturnus was right?  Would you believe him if he said to you that everything you heard on a forum on a website called audiogames net was true?  Would you honestly be able to throw away all your rationality, all of your reasonability and all of the evidence you have previously been presented with against him just to follow him?
I think not; you would still have to decide.  You wouldn't be forced into it; he wouldn't make you come along and subject you to torture if you didn't.  If the rapture occured tomorrow and billions of Christians disappeared from their homes and from business establishments in which they work, you would still have a choice to make.  If God spoke to everyone through a giant cloud that suddenly covered all of the heavens, darkening everything the eye could see, you would still have a choice to make.  If God presented you with a check today containing more than a million dollars and it were signed by him in such a way that no computer could read said signature but you clearly could and so could anyone else at the bank you went to cash it in at, you would still have a choice to make.  If he saved you from falling off a cliff just before you hit the ground by extending a visible hand through the air and said, follow me son, daughter, I love you, I want you, I cherish you more than you could ever imagine and I want to save your soul from eternal damnation, and all you need do is follow me, just follow me, please, follow me, you would still have a choice to make.  You could choose to suggest that a strange phenomena is responsible for the disappearance of billions in the case of the rapture, could choose to believe your vision and your hearing were playing tricks on you as the result of fear and that you misheard the entire thing or that it in fact did not exist and that everyone around you is deluding themselves and that there never was a cloud, or that said cloud could be explained away scientifically but that it would take thousands of years to pinpoint its origin, might choose to believe that the check was a huge hoax, could  choose to believe that you managed to escape the fall by shere chance and dumb luck and that all you saw before you nearly hit the ground was brought on by intense fright, or you could choose to follow Jesus.
Because, you see, the entirety of a relationship with anyone, is based on choice.  You don't immediately believe that your husband or wife is going to be the best for you.  You don't innitially walk up to someone and think to yourself, this person will always be my best friend and never do anything to hurt me and I can trust them entirely.  You never walk into your place of employ and automatically know that your boss or some other fellow employee will turn out to be the nicest person you've ever met or the most royal pain.  There is a choice to be made.  You either trust, or you don't.  You either choose to have faith in them, or you don't.  You give them your time, or you don't.  God is the same way.  On a night I can remember as clearly as if it were yesterday though the date happens to be April 30th of 2014, I decided to follow Jesus because a man came up to me and said, I don't know what you're going through, but I promise you that you don't have to go through it alone.  You are incredulous, your mind is a firm one full of ideas and perspectives.  You are inteligent, rational, reasonable, well educated and eager to learn more, and all you currently know suggests to you that all you have heard within these wals could be a huge lye.  I had a choice to make.  Tell me now, reader, which is the easiest of the two, walking out of this church away from this man who has no clue about me and who might possibly have no clue what he is saying, or following Jesus?
In one of the most notable and powerful messages ever given on Jesus Christ, S. M. Lockridge atempted to give an eloquent description of a king as he knew him.  "The bible says he is the king of the jews.  He is the king of Israel.  He's the king of righteousness.  He's the King of the ages. He's the King of Heaven. He's the King of glory. He's the King of kings and He is the Lord of lords. Now that's my King.  Well, I wonder if you know Him. Do you know Him? Don't try to mislead me. Do you know my King? David said the Heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork. My King is the only one of whom there are no means of measure that can define His limitless love. No far seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of the shore of His supplies. No barriers can hinder Him from pouring out His blessing.  He's enduringly strong. He's entirely sincere. He's eternally steadfast. He's immortally graceful. He's imperially powerful. He's impartially merciful. That's my King. He's God's Son. He's the sinner's saviour. He's the centerpiece of civilization. He stands alone in Himself. He's honest. He's unique. He's unparalleled. He's unprecedented. He's supreme. He's pre-eminent. He's the grandest idea in literature. He's the highest personality in philosophy. He's the supreme problem in higher criticism. He's the fundamental doctrine of historic theology. He's the carnal necessity of spiritual religion. That's my King."  You see, we can present you with any number of arguments and ideas and perspectives and yes, even evidence, but in the end, you have a choice to make.
And so it comes down to this; no matter how much proof you have, no matter where it comes from or how it gets there, no matter what you believe or why you believe it, you still have a choice to make.  You can say that it would be easier to choose if you knew more one way or the other, could say that it would be wiser to wait until you were far more certain, can claim that you're just waiting for this or that sign, but no proof, no evidence, no hypothesis or theory, not even God will make the choice for you, a choice that is entirely yours to make.  There are times when, I confess, my choice brings me less comfort, times when my choice seems like such a sad prospect, times when because of doubt I wonder if I'm throwing my life away, times when I feel like God himself is driving me mad because he doesn't seem to answer when I pray.  But know this, though I may wonder, I still will follow; no turning back, no turning back.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.