2015-08-02 05:20:05

Obviously the only sure way to know if it would work is to test the apps/pages themselves in OS X, however I'm pretty certain what you're talking about is just mouse manipulation and that's supported. MouseOver works; in fact you can have the mouse pointer move with the VO cursor and thus automatically trigger them, which is what I do all the time. For links, both title and link text are accessible and I have my preferences announce both for maximum coolness (text first, followed by title, kicks arse on Wikipedia). Then as TechMaster says you have arbitrary movement with a trackpad which you should get. Most of the time if the object is custom-drawn then you won't get anything except the fact that it is there, because unless they have implemented ARIA that's all the information available. VO will just see it as text, but you'll presumably know that it's a clickable object and click it yourself. Sometimes if VO can detect the event then it may actually declare it as clickable, in which case the default action command (VO-space) should work.

Insert+F12 in NVDA/JAWS is to tell the time, but I don't set up a key for that since it's right there in the status area (VO-M-M).

If you're still interested in trying Chrome and ChromeVox then we could probably get you going with that, however it's still quite a jump and the CV code is under quite active development, so the experimental stuff isn't actually in use yet. So I'd say, if it's just for Flash, it's a bit of a last resort. If push comes to shove and you have to use IE still on some broken site, well we could always employ the WiPOS hack to get it at least patched up enough for that.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-02 05:40:40

For most screen readers, Modifier-F12 tells the time, but that's for another day.

Ah, as for Chrome, yes a lot has change in a years time... Quite a bit!

To download Chrome for Mac the "easy" way, simply head on over to This link on behalf of Mac Update , and download it straight away!
For the Chromevox extension, head on over to:
http://chromevox.com
, and click the "Install Chromevox" link.
Once the dialog comes up, tab to the "Add To Chrome" button, and follow the prompt.

BTW, unless it has changed, the Chromevox modifier by default on a mac, is still ctrl-command.

2015-08-02 05:48:39

Adding on to @Sebby's comment, if you are going to use Chromevox with Chromevox, you may wish to switch the keyboard layout to "the Flat" one, which acts more like normal screen readers.
To do this, pres Chromevox-O>O to open the Chromevox Options screen, then tab till ya reach the combo-box which says "Select A Keyboard Layout" and arrow down "once." Finally, close the window with CMD-W.

To get a list of all Chromevox commands, press Chromevox-Period.

2015-08-02 12:03:48

Ah, well to be honest if i want to know the time I just check the status area clock with dolphin curser, or better still just, you know use my talking clock or my talking watch or something that actually tells the time big_smile.
As to chrome, well I really don't care or see much advantage to the thing, right now I'm more concerned over whether a mac will do what I want, which it sounds like it probably will.

Supernova sometimes displays clickable object on clickable text, but as you said it often does not and is a case of just clicking, puppet nightmares was pretty dire until I worked out this problem.
Mouseovers are again something else that comes up in web games a lot, especially mouseovers that exist on clickable elements. For example puppet nightmares again has mouseover information for pretty much every single thing on the battle screen from named attacks in the log to the names of the participating creatures. I didn't realize how to access this until I found the right ctrl f5 (or right ctrl delete), command to position the mouse pointer at the dolphin curser's current location and leave it there while I went off and read the screen.

It also comes up in various parts of core exiles, and in blood wars where it's necessary to read the various xp requirements to level, indeed mouseovers seem increasingly common in web games, especially for information or explanations.

So, glad to hear mac has this level of mouse control, sinse it is definitely something I'd miss.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-02 18:04:02

If the elements on those pages are displayed as tooltips, Then VoiceOver will automatically put them into the control as a help tag. Mac help tags work exactly like iOS hints do, so you can have them spoken automatically or not, but also you have a hotkey to read them even if you have auto reading help tags turned off. Help tags also often help you label buttons in somewhat inaccessible apps, if you ever decide to do more than just web browsing on the mac.

On that note, one resource you have on OS X which should make finding straightforward download links much, much easier is the macupdate site. It's sort of like the mac app store, but predates it by many years and also includes all of the apps that you need to download from elsewhere, which is most of the interesting ones. So, it's an app directory where you can read descriptions, review apps and so on. It's actually the place I check before checking the mac app store if I ever need something, because it also includes app-store only apps as well.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-08-02 18:12:20 (edited by Chris 2015-08-02 18:36:00)

I find that VO has easier commands to manipulate the mouse and other cursors. In OS X, there are 3 cursors. The first is the keyboard focus which is what moves around when you tab or arrow or switch applications with command tab. This is the default system cursor that anyone can use. Think of it as the standard keyboard focus in Windows. The second cursor is the VoiceOver cursor. This is a cursor that you move around the screen with VoiceOver commands. Think of this like the NVDA review cursor. I think it may be the SuperNova cursor, but I don't know since I have not tried Supernova. Unlike the keyboard cursor, the VoiceOver cursor can read everything in the window including chunks of text and splitters. Again, this is the virtual screen reader cursor. I would compare it to the Jaws cursor, but I think that's just the mouse pointer. Someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. I am not very familiar with Jaws. The final cursor is the mouse cursor or mouse pointer. This is the standard mouse cursor that moves around when you move the mouse. VoiceOver has commands to move these cursorsto one another. VoiceOver also has a feature called cursor tracking. This means that the Voiceover and keyboard cursors always follow each other. If you move the keyboard focus using tab, the VoiceOver cursor will move to the new point on the screen as well. The same is true of moving the VoiceOver cursor. THe keyboard will move to the spot the VoiceOver cursor landed on. You can also set the mouse behavior. If either follows the VoiceOver cursor, ignores the VoiceOver cursor or moves it. I would recommend setting this to follow VoiceOver cursor.

VoiceOver also has ways to drag and drop items. I'm not sure how much you will need to do this, but the option is there if you need it.

Web navigation is different than Windows screen readers. in most screen readers like Jaws and NVDA, the web page is treated as a document. You move around with the arrow keys and use first letter navigation to jump by common form elements. I don't know how SuperNova works, but I'm assuming it treats web content the same. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. When you move the VoiceOver cursor, it treats text as a big chunk. For instance, this text should all read as 1 element. The only way I've found to split these chunks into different items is to make 2 new lines and start typing again. I'm not sure what causes this, but it is rather odd.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-08-02 18:47:35

To clarify, the mouse pointer in SN is these days called the "Dolphin" cursor. Back in the olden days, it was called "Virtual Focus."

2015-08-02 18:58:46 (edited by Sebby 2015-08-02 19:00:42)

Supernova was by far the most technically literate of all the Windows screen readers. Those were happy days indeed, that I used Pegasus Mail as my email client which nobody else could touch.

But times change and I think the need of a screen reader to be competent far outpaces any philosophical desire. The ideal is that which is both, of course. OS X comes close, but Apple would never concede any accessibility outside of its APIs--not yet, anyway. Fortunately, they don't concede an awful lot of much else, either, which means many Mac apps (those bought both from within and without the Mac App Store) basically just work. This is similar to iOS (except you can't buy from outside the store, obviously).

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-02 21:13:08

At least in dom navigation, elements are split by element like link, heading, control and so on, while for chunks of text I think it's split by paragraphs (the

<p>

tag in HTML). I think the forum automatically does that when you put 2 newlines in a post.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-08-02 21:43:44

Hmmm...
Keyboard shortcuts for SN 14 anyone?
http://www.yourdolphin.com/manuals/044QRG_v14_WEB.pdf

Mainly for comparison I suppose...
Yes its in a .PDF file...

2015-08-02 22:39:25

Supernova actually doesn't work by reformatting web pages as I said, it's much more physical movement although columnization is something that you can play with online or off it, one reason it works so well with smugglers, indeed the keys to jump between headings, edit areas and such are comparatively recent additions and even then are pretty physical in nature, eg, it's easy to check what is above or below controls and move round a page etc.
As to the mouse curser, actually mouse manipulation is not instant. The virtual focus can emulate mouse movement, controls and clicks, but where you put the mouse curser is up to you.

So, Vo having several cursers makes sense to me, thanks for the explanation.
I've actually noticed the weerd object flicking on Ios, and found it a wee bit confusing, though that's not what stops vo on Ios being convenient,mainly it's the fact that for some reason random stuff, even perfectly normal stuff like links don't display on Ios (perhaps to do with the screen), and because for some strange reason buttons such as the submit post button on this forum wouldn't work, (I tried using my Iphone to post while I had no pc but had to giveup), however I'm fairly sure both of those are Ios specific an possibly related to the screen size too so would not translate to the mac.

As to Mac aps, well I will probably want a youtube to mp3 converter, and I might end up getting vlc for convenience, though in general aps on a mac are something I'm going to worry about later, especially because I know other than web games games are a none starter on mac, (I believe there are if and mud programs but I might as well keep to those on windows), at the moment internet navigation is as I said my primary concern an the reason I'm likely getting the dam thing.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-02 22:45:07

Mmm, games aren't non-existent on Mac, but there are far, far fewer of them: Chess included, Draconis, AudioQuake and all the stuff now coming out of audiogame.it. But if you already have them on Doze you of course don't need to worry about them on Mac. Same for IF and MUDs: it's doable but with Windows you're going to end up just using that. Ditto for PlayRoom. Bit of a theme here. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-03 00:01:41

You can actually use the Playroom in Safariwith the web client. I find it works just aswell as the native program for Windows.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-08-03 06:39:44

Yep, lack of native mac games is certainly a factor and is another reason I want to keep a windows machine, sinse it's not really system for games, browser stuff not withstanding. Interestingly enough, I know there are those who cry "Give us cross platform or give us death!" but even as far as graphical games go, Ios is still far more popular than mac for developers for some reason so I doubt this will be changing too much in the future, although if it does I'll still of course have a mac myself, interestingly enough though, Entombed ii will have a mac version as well as a windows one.

I have unfortunately realized that sinse I'll be leaving for a week and a half at aims music school a week next Wednesday, getting a mac now might not be such a good idea, sinse while I could likely get one delivered this week, I'll then be buggering off for an extended period not long after, and coming back utterly and completely shattered, so I don't want to start to get used to using the thing, then leave, come back feeling very dead (a week of solid singing will do that to you), and have to pickup again at that point, I'd be better off just having a clear fortnight or so to tinker with the mac I think.

So, it'll probably be waiting until the end of August.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-03 11:56:56 (edited by Sebby 2015-08-03 12:00:44)

Well, I'm not sure I'd go that far: cross-platform is important because Windows isn't the only OS in the world, but equally you can hardly avoid it if it's your only choice. Then, yes, Windows is becoming less and less relevant, so cross-platform is now a growing concern. And if you need to take steps to get access to Windows, then it's arguable that users of alternative systems are still being inconvenienced by a barrier that otherwise wouldn't be there. So, I think that, to the extent Macs have benefited at all, it has been in the ethos of broader compatibility, as people finally learn that Windows isn't the only option available.

Good luck on your travels, and your singing. I will be away in Turkey very shortly, so I don't know when I'll be back around here. Regardless, I won't be back home until sometime in September. By then presumably you'll be well rested, and hopefully, so will I. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-03 16:47:03

I'm not saying windows is the only game option, just that even for sighted gamers the mac doesn't seem to be attracting developer attention half as much as Ios in general. If someone wants to write games for mac I'm not against it, but it seems that generally it's not being used as a game related platform so much, not counting that arse fest known as steam of course, still I can see this changing in the future which is why I'm keeping options open as far as having both platforms goes.

I'm not leaving immediately, it just occurred to me getting a mac and then leaving a weak later wouldn't be good for easy learning of the system, so the thing will need to be somewhat more delayed than I planned, still no worries.

Have fun yourself in Turkey.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-03 17:17:53

Exactly, so for example Steam and Unity are both ported to Mac, but if the game dev didn't write a native game on OS X where there exists a native game on Windows, then Windows it is. However, I think it's fair to say that many gamers are being sorely disappointed by current Windows releases for which games are being natively targeted (for release on Steam or Xbox, EG), just as you are, and that there's a real desire to get off it (usually to SteamOS/Linux). This is all somewhat ironic given that early games had a similar transition from DOS to Windows, during which time much of the code in games was simply to support portability; thus many classics such as Doom or Quake were then or later written or easily adapted for Linux. Oh, how times change!

I worked so hard to get things off my plate for this holiday that I now, somewhat ironically, find myself bored and looking for things to do. No worries, I've found some, for when I'm back from the outdoors. I hope to get some 3G Internet so I can at least check mail and things, and surf my favourite sites including this place. Fun times. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-03 20:32:30

Well it's a different world from the dos days, particularly sinse a lot of dos stuff can successfully be run on xp, now most mainstream games are engine specific rather than system specific, which isn't good for access given both steam and unity, like game consoles don't have access options.

As I said, I'm moving to mac purely for internet reasons not really for gaming, and not really  even for computer related stuff such as media and word processing or playing dvds sinse I'm quite happy with those things on xp anyway, though of course this again could change in the future, indeed I suspect internet streaming services will become more important which is why I want the big screen on the mac when I do get one.

As to checking this site,hope you get Ios to work. I have no idea why vo on ios wouldn't press buttons such as those to login and submit posts, it was very strange indeed. In fact I do believe it's a recent bug sinse I'm fairly sure Ios 7 didn't have this issue, though as internet browsing on my Iphone is a bit fiddly (possibly due to screen size on the Iphone 5), I don't tend to bother with it much.

Annoyingly my xp box seems to have a major error that even booting into safe mode didn't cure, though possibly related to Avg, Java or malware bites, but oh well, even if it needs a full reinstall of the os I've got everything backed up anyway, it's just a pest, paticularly sinse I'll need to cart it 100 miles down from my flat back to the people who built it in order for them to fix it.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-03 20:39:48 (edited by Sebby 2015-08-03 20:43:41)

I'll have a MacBook with me, actually. I hope to get a mobile Mi-Fi hotspot device equipped with a Turkcell SIM, and my iPhone can stay an iPhone in my home country for SMS and non-data services (though I'll of course be avoiding calls). However I've never had any great difficulty accessing this site with iOS, only posting on it. No idea why, but it seems to lose focus when typing into the form, such that the display doesn't update and if you move away from the field for any reason the keyboard goes and is very hard to get back. Perhaps it has something to do with resolution, but this site is very simple and it really shouldn't have an issue. The Mac of course gives me no trouble.

I do hope your XP machine gets fixed up, though to be honest I'd start planning for the day that it can't be repaired again for some reason (components not being available etc). If it's just a software issue, perhaps consider taking an unattend script and an XP CD to it and get the thing installed yourself? Also what about screen readers? Does Supernova 14 run on XP?

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-03 21:16:16

To jump in here and to say it all in one word: "Nope?"

Last vdrsion Supernova runs on for the XP crowd, is SN 13.

The only screen readers that are supported  on XP still, are:

1. NVDA
2. Cobra.

2015-08-03 22:16:10

Disabling JavaScript seems to do it on iOS. No surprise there really.

As to Supernova, well, I suppose one could try to obtain an earlier version from Dolphin. They've supplied me with replacements for my old Hal5 disks before now, so hopefully they'll be helpful enough to let you reinstall v13.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-04 03:25:24

With xp, as I said it's a software issue, if I had! an xp boot disk likely my friend the data analist could've fixed it, however I was never given one, indeed the people I'm taking it to who built me the machine also installed xp for me.

As to support, people say this magic work "support!" as though being without it is some sort of evil. Supernova 13.57 works fine no problem, all version 14 does from what i've gathered is work with all the windows 10 crap so what do I care? I can install sn 13.57 without any trouble on any xp machine I wish and it'll run fine with everything on xp, heck I completely missed sn version 8 sinse basically all it did was run on windows vista.


As to Ios, god knows why, but it just wouldn't click on buttons at all on this forum, and sinse as Sebby said this forum is about as easy going as any webpage possibly could be, I know it's an issue with Ios.
The Apple chap I spoke to about my mac did report it, so I'll try safarri again in the next update.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-04 06:52:40

I am wondering, if using Chrome on your iDevice, that you'd be able to get pass that forum issue ya have here with submitting posts.
Just a thought, since the app is "fully" accessible these days.