2015-07-31 00:03:29

If the mac does what I want on the internet I'll be happy with that, sinse obviously I do lots of online things.
I did like the basic folder structure interface far more than the silly sprawling approach in windows 7, especially if I can have up and down lists instead of those random columns, albiet that if windows 7 had been as functional as xp, I'd probably have learnt to live with it anyway.

Oh, and "functional" in this case means software support,as I've said before, the computery wootery doesn't do anything for me at all, if it doesn't run what I want then a system is no good to me.

One random question, does the e-mail system on mac support a contacts list or e-mails? that's one thing i didn't! like in windows 7, that if I wanted to e-mail my brother I could only do so by either trauling the very large and endlessly sprawling address book or hoping the auto correction got the name right.

an actual contacts list of some sort would be helpful here.

Also, glad to here about the quick nav options, sinse losing the h for heading, e for edit area keys is something I didn't fancy, again, could live with it, but it would be a miner pain. 

One thing I will have to do is find a good browser game to play on a mac. Nothing teaches better than playing a game, I might even start a new char on Sryth.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-31 00:20:31

The Mac is less "Computery-wutery" than Windows. This is by design. Apple built their computers for people who wanted to get stuff done, not be impressed by computery-wutery things. big_smile

Mail will autocomplete any email address or contact name that was recently used or is in your Contacts list. You can of course override it simply by continuing to type. It does this in an accessible fashion. There's a button in the composer sheet to open the searchable contact picker, if you need it.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-07-31 04:27:28 (edited by Chris 2015-07-31 04:32:43)

Why not get the Mac Mini? You can connect your TV to the Mini and it will be way smaller than an iMac. It will also cost you less. I love my 2006 one, even though it won't run anything past Snow Leopard. Anyway, that might be a better option for you. YOu could get the baseline Mini for $500. I'm not sure what that converts to in UK pounds. The newer minis have an HDMI port, so just use an HDMI to VGA adapter to connect to your TV. This is just my thought on this matter. I don't know why a blind or low vision user would want an imac anyway. I should say that the Mini does require an external keyboard and speakers. The Mini has a built in speaker, but it sounds horrible so I'd connect external speakers. The Mini is small enough to fit nicely on a desk or anywhere you can think of. I'm actually considering getting myself a modern Mini at some point. From what I can tell, the newer minis are thinner than mine but don't include DVD drives. Then again, I don't think any modern Mac has a disk drive anymore.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-07-31 09:22:09

The mac has a contacts app. In fact if you've already synced your contacts with iCloud or google, or another server side system they will show up. You ill also most likely see all of your iPhone contacts if you haven't turned iCloud sync off on the iOS side. One neat thing you can do is make phone calls and send text messages from the mac using your iPhone, if they are both connected to the same network. So if you see a phone number on a site or in an email, you can just open a menu, click the call option, and your iPhone will make the call and root all of the audio to the mac.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-07-31 14:11:00

The mac mini might be a good idea if I had more space than I do, ie, space for two tvs and sets of speakers but that is not the case, and I'd need to disconnect my xp box, and external speakers to use it and reconnect them whenever I wanted to use my xp machine which would be a major pain in the kneck.

The mac will be limited to one table basically, so it's got to be either a mac book or an I mac with everything complete, and a mac book would make anything screen related I wanted to do rather difficult. I do after all do things like watching game play videos on youtube, and I don't entirely discount the possibility of getting an external dvd drive in the future, or of using a service such as netflicks or bbc I player.

As to contacts just to be clear, phone contacts and e-mail contacts are two different things. I obviously use my Iphone to phone people, but because I don't usualy have my external keyboard with me and don't want to write long e-mails with the on screen keyboard, I have no e-mail contacts on my Iphone at all, all of them are in outlook express, and many are people or organizations I either don't have phone numbers for or wouldn't phone anyway such as the entombed and audeasy mailing lists.

Indeed I only bothered setting up e-mail on my Iphone because I wanted to output data from Kodp on it big_smile.
As I said, I'm not a big fan of auto complete, sinse I would rather choose whom I actually want to send an e-mail to rather than being reliant on the computer getting it right, this is why I like outlook express sinse to e-mail someone I just hit tab once and then up and down arrows or the first letter of a name, and why the hell silly microsoft removed this in post xp windows I don't know, again, modern proclivity for filling the screen with sprawling data rather than nice tidy lists, or at least giving you no choice about how data is displayed.

That is why I'm wondering about the contacts list on mac.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-31 14:29:28

I don't remember off the top of my head if outlook can export the contact list. Even if not there's probably a tool that will give you a .vcf file that you can just open using the contacts app, which will import it. The contact list is actually a feature on the OS level, not a part of the Email program so any app can access it.
If you start typing in the to field, Mail will complete the address. If it gets it wrong you can actually use the up and down arrow keys to explore other options. Next to this you do have an "add from contacts" button that opens a simple window with a search box, and 2 trees, one with all of your groups and one with your contacts sorted alphabetically, so you can choose things that way as well.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-07-31 15:44:34

How you organise things is up to you. You could either have two lists, each maintained on separate devices or, more likely, you sync both to iCloud and end up merging them. Contacts do not have to contain any particular data; if a contact has no email address, or no phone number, then you simply don't do those things with them. And you can create groups to organise them into.

Just stop worrying and learn to love the Mac. big_smile

Just myself, as usual.

2015-07-31 17:44:48

Well I'll "learn to love one" if it does what I want, but I need to determine that first, hence the questions, sinse I'd feel a real fool if I went and spent a huge amount of money on something and then didn't find it worked out, and unlike the Iphone I don't have games to fall back on as an "well at least it plays games" arguement. Indeed the culture of "apple is god whatever they decide is right, fit in with their almighty plan" that some apple users have is really quite scary big_smile.

So, when your writing an e-mail you can hit on the "add contacts" box and get a streight up list? that would be okay.

As to exporting, well I checked that with Apple, if I save each contact from my outlook express address book as a v card (or at least the useful ones), I can import them into contacts on a mac, so no worries with that one.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-31 23:07:46 (edited by Sebby 2015-07-31 23:16:34)

I suppose it's possible that you didn't get the "How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb" reference. In any event, yes, you will indeed be pursued from your bedside by the Mac faithful, wielding pitchforks and torches and praising the Messiah Saint Jobs, his greatness, his holiness, his majesty, the most generous, the almighty and the all-merciful, until you have been converted. Be afraid. Be very afraid ...

OS X is an up-to-date OS. Web browsing and email are among its functions. Therefore it will do what you want. You can return the Mac if you find that you can't live with it for some reason. I honestly don't believe you have anything to worry about. Any perception you may have about the platform or its users doesn't change that, although, FWIW, I'm not very impressed by fanboyism (of any ilk) either. If I had a motto for Apple, it would be that I love the products and hate the company. The Mac has its upsides and its downsides, and is my primary OS. I use XP in a VM for any Windowsy bits, and I haven't booted into Windows now for ... oh, I was last in there a few days back, just to update the VM before going to Turkey. And yeah, even the iPhone was a new experience for you when you bought it, which you ultimately learned.

So, stop worrying and learn to love the Mac. big_smile

Yes, you just press the button to add contacts while tabbing through the composer and you get the standard contact chooser. That is a table that you can navigate, and if you type into the search field, the table constricts to just the results. I never use it myself because autocomplete actually works for me. You will be told what gets autocompleted; you can press backspace to remove the autocompleted text, or continue typing to change the selection or abort. Just like iOS, you know. For my part I just remember email addresses, and it autocompletes those too.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-01 00:28:40 (edited by Chris 2015-08-01 00:40:44)

Hi.

I just want to point out that you can use a Mac without the VO cursor if you want. Standard OS X shortcuts like tab and arrows work pretty well. VoiceOver will read when you move around. The only time you would want to use the VO cursor is if you wanted to read a window and not miss any text. As for interacting, that is only necessary if you want to look at an item in detail. I've been using the VO cursor so am used to navigating with control+option, but that's just one way to navigate. You can use other commanders to move the VO cursor. I used to like using the numpad commander on my Mini with Snow Leopard until I got this Macbook Air. The numpad and trackpad commanders are great. The numpad commander allows you to control the VO cursor with numpad keys that you can customize to your liking. The trackpad commander lets you use a multitouch trackpad tocontrol VoiceOver. You may find the numpad commander to work the best when using VoiceOver navigation. For instance, you can set up keys to jump by heading, link, list, etc as well as do other common VO actions like interacting. This is just one reason I love the Mac.

You can actually navigate through HTML areas on Safari with the arrows. HOwever, this seems to be a little clunky since the cursors don't always seem to track each other. When navigating with arrows, you can use all the standard keyboard commands to move. Option arrows moves by word, left and right arrows move by character, up and down move by lines, and command left and right jump to the top and bottom of a line respectively. I'm probably missing a few.

I'll end this by telling you to look at all your options. VoiceOver is a very powerful screen reader and can be customized to your liking in most situations.

edit

Here's what the arrow key navigation is like. Listen to this podcast from Applevis
http://www.applevis.com/sites/default/f … ast609.mp3
Oh, that reminds me. VoiceOver has a command to get the link address from the currently focused link. There's also another command to copy the spoken phrase to the clipboard. I don't think any other screen reader has this kind of capability. I love my Macintosh!

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-08-01 01:49:25

Yep, agreed on Apple as a company, indeed that is part of why I hate Itunes, and Apple fanatics I find sort of worrying in how they even are devoted to all of apple's legal jargon as well.

Bare in mind I have a lot! of contacts sinse there are people and organizations I keep in touch with via e-mail, and sending the wrong mail to the wrong person could be bad. Auto complete never seemed to do it, likewise sinse there are some people and organizations I only contact intermitantly it'd be a bit impossible to remember all their e-mail addresses, that is why I'd like a contacts list, but if the search box can be restricted to letter it will work out, though I still don't see what is wrong with the good old outlook express dropdown list big_smile.

@Chris, remember that I've been using supernova which has a lot! of unexpected little functions. I'm not turning this into a vo vs sn debate, just pointing out I'm more than used to screen readers I can play with that have different ways of accomplishing the same goal and different customizations, indeed it was the difficulty to customize even a basic thing like amount of information spoken that was one of my major issues when I spent a day with jaws, (it apparently is possible in Jaws, but having to traul the obscure settings was sort of insane).

Glad to hear that there is a way to copy links etc, sinse that was something I was wondering about, also it's interesting sinse one chap I spoke to about a mac said that he disliked how there wasn't! anyway to navigate headings, edit areas and whatever, but sinse I'd already found how to do this on Ios I assumed that there would be a way to do it with vo on a mac which he'd just missed.

The "
The hole "uptodate osX" goes in the category of computery wootery, ie, technical stuff I don't care about.
I still own a Snes and I don't own a Wii, why? because I have lots of low vision accessible games on the Snes and the Wii has evil menus of doom and very few low vision accessible games, even though in terms of capabilities an processing and all that techy wechy the wii out strips the snes by orders of magnitude.

That's wy I'm interested far more in things like how e-mail works, how the internet works etc, ie, what it does for me.

I actually wish companies took this approach more often, or at least microsoft did, but there you go.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-01 04:31:10

I have not played with SuperNova so can't comment.

You can jump by common web elements. There are actually a few ways of doing this. The first is to use VO command and a letter. These commands always work. The other ways involve the different commanders. QuickNav has the single web page key navigation, and you can assign web commands to the other commanders. You can also use the rotor which functions exactly like on iOS. There is also the web item rotor which can be accessed with VO u. This provides lists of different form elements. So yes, there are ways to jump around webpages. Well, unless you're running Tiger.

smile

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-08-01 05:50:53

Supernova is a good baseline, actually, in that, like Mac, the movement between interaction and exploration is basically frictionless. Tab works, but you can still navigate. Text entry works without you doing anything. You can switch between using the cursors for moving the insertion point and using them for VoiceOver easily. It's really very slick. Unlike in Supernova, though, it is explicitly allowed that different cursors be in different places simultaneously; one doesn't necessarily always need to be tracking the other. And the interaction model gives you a much more hierarchical understanding of the GUI.

Yeah, you'll be alright. smile

The browser and email client are up-to-date. I have to imagine that that's why you want them: if your XP machine's browsers and clients were up-to-date, you wouldn't. QED. Of course you won't see it like that--merely as a means to an end--but that's actually the general ethos of my point, which is that a lot of the important changes that you need in an OS are incremental. Obviously we'll help you get maximum use out of the computer for your actual work, but the job would be much harder if, say, Safari didn't work with all the latest sites. Which, happily, it mostly does. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-01 08:49:15

The only thing you should be aware of, which is thankfully reaaaaally uncommon now is that you can't easily use flash on websites with VO, because Adobe didn't want to implement apple's protocols and apple didn't want to port over the Windows ones. So you will most likely have some problems starting video players that only have flash controls, though thankfully 90% of the internet now either uses exclusively html5, or have a flash player with HTML controls like the BBC.
You do have some control over verbosity. It's a lot more than you get with, say, nvda. For Most control types you can choose what parts of it you want spoken, IE name, status (collapsed/checked/whatever), type and so on. On-top of that you have 3 verbosity schemes, which also effect some additional info being spoken, like how many items there are in a menu if one opens. You'll definitely want to make some changes here to make web browsing faster, especially in the case of headings because by default VO first announces that something is a heading and its level, and then reads its content. You'll probably want to move the status and type to the end so you can skim read faster.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-08-01 10:47:54

Lack of flash could be   annoying, sinse I have seen flash protocols and sites that work and one of the things I wanted access to was some of the flash content within games, though it is true lots of sites have moved to html5 instead, (even youtube).

One thing I would like to know, is why arrows to go just get standard physical navigation out of a webpage didn't seem to work, also why vo seemed to divorce the reading of the page from navigating it, ie, when i  tried to just physically read down the page it didn't work, but when I went between links it did. There are lots of occasions (especially in more complex internet games), where I don't necessarily want to either read the hole page or even the links and headings, but a portion of the text. For example on this forum, if I wanted to see how many replies each topic had I'd heading my way through (or use links), and hit down arrow on each heading to read last replied, number of posts etc.
Vo didn't seem to intigrate this sort of physical movement and movement by object half as well, indeed as I said when arrowing down the page I actively got stuck on google's image for downloading chrome which was weerd.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-01 11:52:33

To somewhat try to explain this, you have to understand that VoiceOver doesn't virtualise the webpage like a huge document like Windows screen readers do. You're not supposed to navigate it with the up and down arrow keys and instead use the normal VO cursor movement keys, VO-left and VO-right, or just the left and right arrow keys with quick nav. This will move you through every page element. If you enter a table, then you can also move up and down in addition to left and right to stay in a specific column. The ability to read a page with up and down is very recent, it was added in Yosemite and was refined somewhat in the El capitan beta, though I'd still recommend you use the VO cursor.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-08-01 11:59:11

Since you mentioned Chrome, that browser happily does quite well on a mac I hear. Chromevox is "not" required, unless ya wish to use the "Google Drive" suite of apps.

Flash in Chrome will be dropped in septembr however.
Unsure if it can be reenabled, but its definitely going bye-bye by default.

2015-08-01 12:11:51 (edited by queenslight 2015-08-01 12:12:53)

Other sites that have moved to HTML5 video include:

1. Daily Motion
2. Twitch
3. Vimeo

2015-08-01 13:59:23

I don't know what you mean by "virtualize the hole webpage as a document" sinse Supernova doesn't do that. All Supernova does is read what's there, though whether it handles the objects as rows or columns depends upon how it is set, hence my question about intigrated physical movement around the actual page vs links sinse as I said I often have to read information around the headings and other land marks on the page, rather than just navigate in between objects, indeed if I get to a page I've not visited before I'm far more likely to navigate around physically with the arrows than just try hammering the tab key or going down the headings and links, sinse that way I get a general sense of the layout before I start skipping through it.

Whether this Vo curser does the same thing I don't know.

I don't really have any interest in chrome, I just noticed that when trying to arrow down the google page to read search results on a mac for some random reason I could not down arrow passed the image link that was advertising google chrome, whether this was because it was an image or just because I wasn't using this vo curser I don't know.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-01 14:08:07

The following AppleVis article should take care of explaining how VoicOver deals with web pages in question:
http://www.applevis.com/guides/mac-os-x … s-x-safari

2015-08-01 14:22:27

As the article Trenton linked to says, Windows screen readers build a model of the webpage in memory. This is especially true in internet explorer, where after the browser finishes loading a page control passes to your screen reader, which then essentially rebuilds the page from scratch by reading the HTML code of it. This is why you often get messages from a screen reader that the page is loading even though visually it's all finished, and also why websites can look so different depending on the screen reader used. In other browsers like Firefox, Safari or chrome, the screen reader gets information about the page from the browser, not by parsing it itself which is a better approach for the most part.
VoiceOver has 2 web navigation modes. Dom and Group. These can be switched with a hotkey, and starting with 10.11 you will be able to assign webpage specific settings. The difference is that DOM mode displays the page top to bottom as it's written in the HTML code aka 99% of screen readers now, while group tries to give you a more visual overview. This mode sometimes requires more interacting, EG you may see a navigation bar show up as a single item, but some people prefer it over DOM navigation.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-08-01 23:04:40

Warning: contains naughty bits.

Ah yes, Flash. That diseased plug-in that the BBC simply will not give up because they're more interested in shagging their content licensers than getting accessibility right. My answer of course is just "Fuck the BBC, they never have anything useful to say anyway" but there are workarounds, involving for example click-to-Flash conversion into HTML5 elements, or just telling the Mac to pretend to be an iPad for a short while so they serve up the HTML5 version. Or maybe we could get that XP box running a modern enough browser just for those few Flash sites, maybe Chrome and ChromeVox? But Trenton and Pitermach are right: Flash really is on the way out, thank fuck, and not just for its very poor security record.

As to navigation in general, it's probably best to just think of VO navigation on the web as essentially identical to navigation everywhere else, i.e., just VO-right to move through every element, be it control or text. This is not unlike how Supernova or iOS does it either, it's just that Supernova tries to emulate the other Windows screen readers more closely in allowing you both horizontal and vertical navigation.

To summarise then: just use VO-right where you might normally have pressed down-arrow repeatedly. And yes the Google home page ad for Chrome could be navigated beyond using the VO cursor, in all likelihood. Turn on QuickNav and VO-right becomes, merely, right.

FWIW, I prefer to browse with QuickNav on, with single-key-navigation off, with the rotor set to headings. If given a choice, I'd get the keyboard with numeric keypad so you can use it for VO, plus a Trackpad, so you can use that with VO too.

Browsing with Safari is probably the most contentious part of the whole experience, to be honest. I think you'll find it frustrating at first, but muscle memory will probably ultimately see you over the worst of it. Although arrow-key navigation does work, I'd suggest you learn the VO habit early, until Apple gets focus tracking working more consistently, as using VO navigation is far ore likely to succeed and is more consistent.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-08-02 03:39:15

Flash was just a thought, but as you said it's use is dropping off, bbc i player was just an example and honestly the only use I can think of for it currently is watching the next series of new who sort of vaguely as it happens without waiting to go back to my parents sinse really if I was still interested in the bbc I'd still have a tv license, which I haven't done for around 7 years now big_smile.

My only issue with navigating by quick nav as I said, is physical movement on pages and interactions with none standard controls, both of which I play a lot, sinse both are useful things in supernova, but both are also things that come up extremely often in testing browser games, sinse people like to create custom code rather than using standard html objects like links and buttons and such, I also wonder how vo handles mouseovers, sinse they're another frequent thing that comes up in games, not an issue in sn.

I am sure muscle memory will work as far as just learning new commands goes, indeed as I said in Sn I more commonly use the physical movement as opposed to standard commands anyway, but the last thing I want to do is find I lose functionality as far as browser interactions go, especially where game testing and controls are concerned sinse that is obviously something I do a lot.

I actually did once try to download chrome and chromvox for my Xp machine just out of mild curiosity but again  stupid google had such an annoying site that kept harping on about the bennifits of chrome without giving me a sensible download link, I gave up after about ten minutes (sinse I wasn't that bothered anyway), it struck me Google had caught the malinche disease of so much advertising on how great their product is they make the sodding product hard to find.
Whether that has changed now I don't know (this was last year), but as I said, I'm a bit meh on the hole chrome thing anyway.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-02 03:45:46

Well. That is one of the things that I love about VO. It presents the web page, as it is. That's good, because, say you're in a school. You're teaching a class of sighted students, or you're the student. You see what everyone else sees, minus the graphics. I never liked using the VO keys for navigation, due to the fact that I type with one hand. I use quick nav, but most of the time, it's track pad commander. And, yes, you'll want to modify the verbosity. As you might have noticed, for some odd reason, apple thought we would want to hear numbers as digits, by default, instead of saying the whole number. When you have it set to digits, sometimes, hearing the time of the day, can be confusing. To change it, press VO pluss v. It says, adjust typing echo. Navigate left and right through the settings, and use up and down navigation to change them. Double tap, if track pad commander is on, otherwise VO space is used to conferm. The thing most people get concerned with is the unusual key commands used to navigate. You'll get used to it, eventually. I think that, with a braille display, or just a braille style keyboard, you'll be more at home as far as commands used. If you have the keyboard commander turned on, you get some nice little commands to make VO do things. For instance, option pluss t, does what most would expect NVDA or jaws to do when pressing incert pluss f12. I will warn you, if you do decide to run windows, you'll have to map an incert key. The mac desktop keyboards already have the 6 pack of keys. However, it doesn't have an incert key.

Power is not the responsibility of freedom, but it is actually the responsibility of being responsible, it's self, because someone who is irresponsible is enslaved by their own weaknesses.

2015-08-02 03:51:26

Mmmm, techmaster, remember firstly I haven't read braille seriously for years, and haven't written in braille for even longer (and lets not have that debate again), neither do I really see what a braille keyboard is for, secondly as I said supernova already does! give you the physical webpage, and thirdly I have no idea what insert f12 does in Jaws or nvda at all big_smile.

I will get a track pad sinse I like the idea of ios style navigation, although as I said I worry if going between objects precludes me interacting with none standard web controls and on page hotspots.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)