2015-01-21 20:55:26

Since I noticed Dark was working his way through Buffy it reminded me I never really watched it, having only caught a few odd episodes. So far I'm five episodes into the first series and a funny thing has happened, I'm feeling really, really flat about it. Has anyone else had this?

I can't fault the writing or the acting, but it always seems to come back to Buffy herself and I just can't pin it down. Do I dislike the character for some reason? Do I dislike  Sarah Michelle Geller's portrayal of her? Do I just dislike Sarah Michelle Geller? I'm really not sure, all I know is I'm just not feeling her in some sense or another.

I know the whole point of the series is she would be a normal girl if it weren't for being the slayer, is it that  I find her a boringly normal person and don't find her being the slayer enough to make her interesting? I wish I knew. I want to like the series, I just can't seem to get past Buffy and it's really annoying me.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-21 22:11:09

Wait, is this available in descriptive? I did the first episode without it once but stopped-there wasn't any incentive to keep watching-but it keeps coming up all over the place lately, so I'd probably try again if I could find it described.

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2015-01-21 22:39:03

I agree with both posts. I tried geting into it, but something about it just didn't stick with me... not quite sure what it is about Buffy. Maybe I just haven't slogged through the boring parts to get to the good stuff. I dunno.

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2015-01-22 11:00:53

Well as far as series go I've only just finished season 1 and not started on season 2, so I can't say specifically.

On the descriptive front This site has some very good transcripts which might be useful.

I initially never liked Buffy sinse on the few occasions I caught an episode, it always seemed really superficial and airhaead, not really a lot to it. I then however watched Firefly (which I loved!), and my brother pointed out to me that Buffy had some of the same characterization being also Joss Weaden.

what I'm finding thus far is a little odd. The world and vampires really don't do much for me in terms of exploring fantasy worlds, but I am just enjoying how witty the thing is. Buffy herself really isn't that interesting (neither is Angel), or at least not at this moment sinse she is just sort of generic main character, however the two supporting characters, Sander and Willow are great. I love Sander's streight man act, it really reminds me of socca from last air bender (although Socca is considderably cleverer), and Willow is that rare thing a completely decent character.
Giles is also amusing in his bemused state, and for once it's nice to see an English character on an American series who isn't a walking sterriotype who sounds either like a reject from Dickensian london or a bloody second world war bloody fighter pilot old bloody bean!

I also appreciate the fact that unlike so much else featuring teenaged girls, the characters in Buffy are not held to be individually! special simply by virtue of being teenaged and females. It's a very annoying sexist attitude in society, that anyone with two x chromosomes between 13 and 20 can automatically do no wrong. Well not in Buffy, everyone is nicely a person.

I also like the fact that vampires are just plane brutal! street thugs who smack people around, and Buffy's response to this is to punch and kick them repeatedly with no finesse but considerable force, ---- take that Twilight!

Do I think Buffy is the best series in the universe? at this moment not exactly. Do i think the world is unique? Again no, not right now.

However unlike so much these days (including Doctor who), it's got dialogue that actually is interesting to here and genuine characters, not just a bunch of rehashed cliches.

I will say I don't know if there is a degree of visual element to the series. While I cannot follow the fast action sequences precisely beyond usually determining who is getting gnullered, I do see enough to see changes in environment and pace, which helps a lot, and sinse buffy's plots tend to move quickly and for all the good dialogue run around locations in the school a lot, I don't know if there is something missing if your always playing catch up.



Whether the series will either get better or worse I don't know, but we'll see.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-22 19:11:25

I certainly agree regarding Jiles, Xander and Willow. I think it might just be the utter mind numbing averageness of Buffy herself, though like you I do appreciate the lack of finesse or moral ambiguity in the way they deal with vampires. I suppose that's shared by the Dresden Files, at least as far as the red and black courts are concerned.

As for Firefly, I've mentioned before that wasn't to my taste. I'm just not into the whole western thing and that's kind of the point to the series, a western in space.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-23 09:44:38

Well as regards Firefly, there again it was the characters, ---- although unlike Buffy the world was also one I found fascinating what with it being a terraformed solar system 600 years in the future with hundreds of planets and asteroids but only one sun. I also don't have anything particular against westerns, or at least not when done well although there are far too many that aren't.

With Buffy herself, I don't sort of mind that she is basically wearing a badge saying "I am the main character" she's just sort of there, and at least we don't have to put up with a huge load of anxt and wining from her which is good, although Buffy and Angel thus far have been the part of the series that interested me least.

I have heard season 2 gets far better with the bad guys and characters, but we'll see, ---- I'll likely start it this evening.

As to Dresden comparisons, well I actually found the red and black courts rather more interesting in Dresden, albeit I didn't think much to the white court, however I appreciate that in Buffy the main character doesn't suddenly go "noooooo! my anxt is over whelming me! so die vampires in sudden spell of emo fire plus a hundred!" Buffy at least is reasonably martial and up against an overwhelming number
of vampires she wil! lose unless help arrives, (it usually does sinse I get the idea buffy isn't a grimdark series, but I'd rather have that than pulling out a deus anxt machina).
then again I confess I never liked Harry himself that much either (how someone can winje so much about not having a girlfriend for an entire two years).

Dresden I regarded as more a bit of fun than really serious reading that engages my emotions and makes me care, (and riding zombie dinosaurs is rather awsome), and thus far I am finding Buffy's dialogue at least more witty, albeit the characters I like best are as I said Willow, Sander and to a lesser extent Giles as opposed to Buffy herself.

Actually if you want a series with vampires that explores real character and is genuinely dark at parts try Being Human, ---- at least seasons 1-3 (I unfortunately missed the last two seasons and I've heard mixed reports, sinse Season 3 came to a natural close).

The series is about a vampire, a warewolf and a ghost who share a house together, but in a way it's as much about the characters, and the takes on all the paranormal are genuinely different.

Vampires there are portrayed as a bunch of roudy, violent  drug adicts with no control whatsoever, it also has some uniquely amusing black social commentary as well.

It's also fully audio described, at least it was on first broadcast, I don't know about the dvds, though it really is a series I ought to buy, although I'll stick with Buffy for the time being.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-25 19:15:19

Oh Harry Dresden can definitely be a bit annoying when it comes to women, though it's almost worth it for the ammunition it gives to Bob. Part of the fun of Harry is how colossally bad he is with people, heck in the first book he went to an official function held by vampires dressed as a cheesy B movie Dracula knock off. That's up there with going into a dwarf bar and ordering a short, or going into a werewolf bar and asking for a doggie bag. I'd say at least some of the idiocy in the first couple or so books is overplayed and not believable, like his going to Bionca to talk to her about the dead girl and accidentally convincing her he was making a threat against her or going to the lycanthrope garage in the second book to ask questions but once the author gets his feet under him Harry's smartarsery is fairly amusing. Suicidal, but amusing.

The other fun part of the books is as you alluded to, the way the characters decide they're down the rabbit hole anyway so they might as well just do the crazy stuff like a zombie T rex or an invisible boat blaring out we will rock you at full volume just because. Probably not the most realistic actions in the world but at this point who gives a crap, it's unashamed indulgence.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-25 20:45:04

Well saying "harry and women" brings up another serious problem I have with the series, sexism! People are getting murdered, ---- noooo! women are getting murdered! oooh the horror!
I'm not sure whether the view is Butcher's or Dresden's, but it irritates me either way.

Then there are the problems as I said with too many deus ex, with Harry's wining (which most of the time isn't justified and is just irritating), and the problem I have with a lot of urban fantasy which is that only a few bits of the world get serious fleshing out and attention, ---- it sort of irritated me that we'd have a great book with someone interesting like the Summer Court or the Black Denarius, and then have to sit through yet more warewolves or the white court or some random necromancers, the series really did suffer from the "one bit a book" syndrome. Hand in hand with this is the crazy way harry just keeps picking up random attributes until he's the half undead fae, demonically possessed angel powered magically warded spirit wizard from hell! Really, what happened to just being a wizard? :d.

On the other hand, I will say some of the world is really unique, and it has some fantastically great grey area characters who aren't exactly evil but up to their own thing  (the Black Denarius are awsome).

I also really like Michael, the sword wielding Ned flanders of doom! and Butters was a fun character (at least before he turned into bat man).

Actually is anyone normal in that series? big_smile.

Good fun certainly, and some of the climaxes definitely are great for absolutely surreal action overload syndrome, but I don't know when i'll fansy reading the series for a second time around.

Then again, at this point I'd say the same of Buffy (I haven't started season 2 yet as I got engrosed in other stuff like reading Ian M banks great scifi).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-26 03:12:18

Given Murphy is constantly complaining about Dresden's attitude I'd say it's Dresden's issue, he even seems to allude to the fact that he knows it's a problem. It's probably a reference to the whole hard boiled detective who knows "women are trouble" but still can't stop himself helping them stereotype.

I'll agree I'd like to see more of the way the world runs, though I do like that they allude to for example the red and white courts having mundane business interests which both promote their interests in various ways and gives them a source of revenue. Sometimes it gets a bit much when you have large evil organisations with access to any resources they want shy of nuclear weapons yet no visible explanation of how this works. Perhaps supplaments for the Dresden Files RPG will give more of this information.

To be fair Dresden has lost the demonic and undead parts, though it edoes increasingly seem in recent books he's gaining a lot of unnecessary gimmicks. I did find some interest in the way the interplay with the echo of lashiel went, though I was disappointed Harry's big reveal to Michael about the coin was met by a simple "I know".

As for normal, that depends on your definition. Murphy is still a normal human technically speaking, she's going a bit vigilante more recently but she's still only using guns and other mundane tools combined with knowledge she's picked up along the way. Marcone and Hendrix are only baseline humans though Marcone is the first mortal to sign onto the uncili accords and has a damn valkyrie on retainer. Charity Carpenter is technically only human, though she did once have magical talent and her husband used to be a knight of the cross.

I'm also a little weirded out by the redheaded werewolf Andy. She's virtually never been single through the entire series, she just seems to bounce from one romantic partner to another even after one of them got killed. Yes she's described as being gorgeous but come on, take a breath once in a while.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-28 17:54:50

Beware! Dresden spoilage ahoy!

Well I'm not sure how much of the sexism is authorial and how much character, I suspect some of both, however it does sort of bother me that Drsden himself is usually vindicated, even when he does things so extreme as turn over the hole world and course of a war because there is a child who shares some dna with him who he's never seen (I wonder if he'd be as extreme if it'd been a son?).

I also don't necessarily think Murphy's cryticisms of Dresden's opinions really can be seen as Butcher expressing a descenting view, not with all the rants on "a man's duty" we've had to sit through, and especially coming from a character who, for all the "oooh what a hard case she is" Dresden continually comments first upon her cuteness and then rescues (she was even a tied up damsel in destress on several occasions).

On that one I really don't know, but it's not something I like in the series. a very good crytic I read on sexism in fantasy said that it wasn't so much a matter of having every female character be brick, as just making female characters interesting, 3 dimentional people who have major importance to the plot, and indeed she sites several examples from game of thrones, both good and bad.

This is actually something I liked in Buffy, not because Buffy is nails, but because characters like Willow and cordelia (vile though she is), play a major part in the series and are rounded, interesting people.

The fact you've qualified every statement about human characters in the series pretty much shows my issue with a lot of Dresden, I actually preferd it when the paranormal world was huge and scary and wild and being a wizard just basically made you a prey animal with a few teeth rather than a prey animal with none. It's part of the invincible character syndrome I dislike from a lot of superheroes, that everyone has to be a hardcase, ditto with the lack of exploraable world though I will say Drsden still has some great politics and factions, characters who are nicely shades of grey (I also thought lashiel was awsome), and some great atmospheric peaces from chases with zombie dinosaurs to some genuinely creepy moments, ---- I love the red court skin suits, it's such a vile idea and a completely new take on vampires.

I like the way the realworld connections of the various evil organizations tie in to the plot, though at the same time it'd be nice if they didn't basically make it feel like every human business and national personality who's name isn't marcone is a complete ponce and just another catspaw for one faction or another.

Actually if you want to see some wonderful human/vampire organization interaction try being human. There is a fantastic plot in the second series that though the nasty head vampire (who also happened to be a police inspector), was disposed of at the end of season one, sinse he's now no longer black mailing the pathologist, it's much harder to hide the vamps activities from the public. There's even a fantastic bit in season 3 where michel gets dragged into a police station and absolutely throws a fit at the threat of having his photo taken, ---- only for it to not show his image but and then be put down to cojmputer error, (yes, being human has fantastic social commentry).

Btw, one thing I personally like with Dresden is the fact that the gm of our long running mutants and masterminds game freely said he borrowed a lot of elements from the books, but always put his own spin on them. So, he had fae courts, and the winter court at arctus tour, but included both a winter and summer king, and also a third power, cammelot in the middle.

He even had a lashiel inspired character who was awsome, the love interest for one of the party who was an angel, which lead to some really fun plot.

In the last few sessions he ended up with a wizard called Thomas Rimer, who pretty much was! Dresden (he even had the coat, bad temper  and the beerd). Our Gm did a pretty good job of simulating Dresden, Though amusingly enough he came to a sticky end sinse during a massive battle for the fate of the world Rimer nobbled the master mage and stuck his powers into a staff.

He was then wandering around with a hole set of magic devices all with various fae, angels, demons and other things bound into them, as well as the master mage's borrowed power in a staff, my character (wearing a magitech battlesuit), hit him with my despell magic power which had most of the things he imprisoned take big chunks out of him. I would've left it there and kicked him in prison but one of our less scrupulous allies who was a priest of hades (and quite narked that rimer had been messing with gods and angels), had him dragged to hades.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)