2015-01-23 18:24:36

I've been experiencing some stupid bugs and issues with InftyReader, the most concerning for me is the poor quality of recognition results of anything more complex than 1-column matrices. This sucks because i'm taking an introductory course in linear algebra. Because of copyright issues, I can only get the pdf of the course text, and not the latex source. I tried looking for pdf to latex converters but gave it up as a lost cause.

This got me to wondering: why are screen readers so bad at reading math? What are the technical challenges? The pdf I got is an actual pdf and not a series of images, so the math expressions must be in the document somewhere. What about Microsoft word equations?

2015-01-23 18:42:32

Well Supernova at least will read basic equations so long as they're written with ascii characters, (though I usually need to fiddle with the verbosity to alter what punctuation is spoken), and if a recognized tabula format is used such as those in microsoft word or in microsoft word or reasonably good html, you could have vertical organization as well.

The problem however seems two fold. firstly, even if you have all the information, hearing your screen reader rattle off two plus two squared times three to the power of six multiplied by eighty four is a little hard to follow on a basic sonic level (I noticed this when playing Kerkerkruip and trying to follow the formulae given for damage and hit chances during combat). Even if you go character by character, you still have the problem of needing to remember thee first steps of the formula. This is where visual scanning helps, sinse a sighted person always has access to the hole! formula, but even in braille it's possible to read different parts of the line as needed where as a screen reader makes the information linniar.
this is basically to do with the fact that processing mathematical information is rather different from processing normal spoken information.

There is however a more serious problem which occurs at higher levels of mathematics, and one which always prevented me from progressing. What I always found at school, is if you simply gave me the numbers written down I could always juggle them successfully, but the moment that the information analysis became spacial and graphical I struggled.

I know personally I tend to have problems comprehending space, but these actually seemed to translate into for example graphs representing data, ---- or at least so I found, indeed at one point when the teacher say produced a graph showing the convertion from farrenheight to centigrade, or the sequence of fibbenachi (I'm probably misspelling that), numbers, he'd always just tell me the necessary numeric relations and let me work them out where as he'd give the rest of the class a graph and have them measure the curve and gradient and what not to find relations.

This info switch went on at university, indeed my lectural in formal logic even offered to teach me a different calculus to the tree diagram based one other people had, (in the end I worked out my own numeric representational system for labelling tree branches, though spotting actual relationships with it was a nightmare).

Of course this might be me specifically rather than a problem with the basic representation of spacial information for blind people, sinse I know my own ability to hold and map spaces is less than average and a lot of blind people have hugely better mental spacial mapping skills than I do (I can't even play sudoku).

Still, I do wonder if perhaps there is something involved in the spacial nature of representations in maths,

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-23 18:59:44

Screen readers can't read math because of basically everything.  If we can get Design Science to release Mathplayer, it'll be better-but not best.  Unfortunately, who knows if or when that will happen.  I'm betting on never, but I'm hearing from those who would know that there's still progress-just at the pace of a glacier.
As for OCR, it's all of the challenges of print OCR, and it's also pretty amazing that they managed to get it working at all in the first place.
To find textbooks, google for open source math textbooks.  There are a number of them out there.  You might find what you're looking for in LaTeX.  Outside that, there is basically nothing at all in LaTeX unless you get it direct from a professor, as I am currently doing with calc 3.  Your Students with Disabilities people should be brailling for you; if they are not, this is an argument worth having because they can do it by paying a student worker a few bucks an hour and all they have to know is word.

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2015-01-23 19:05:49

Braille wouldn't be a feasible solution in my case. I've written to the InftyReader developers to see if they can improve recognition of matrices.

2015-01-23 19:24:33

Braille is the only feasible solution for a lot of this at the moment, I'm afraid. The reason I'm not giving an overview of the issues is because it is a very, very big problem and I have no idea where to even start explaining.  I suppose at "demand is low and no one is making money", but even so.

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2015-01-23 21:32:26

Simple answer, the screen reader companies just haven't focussed on the problem.

The more complex answer, as someone who took a unit in discrete maths, is that there doesn't seem to be any recognition of the more advanced symbology built into the screen readers. As Dark says there are likely problems with perceiving the equations via speech but often we simply don't get the chance to even try, because the screen reader doesn't read the notation for things like implication and equivalency. Don't even get me started on things like ven diagrams and Dextra's shortest path.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-24 10:59:41

Well if your trying to To be honest ocr even for standard text can be ropy, so if your going into complex mathematical symbols, god knows!

Fortunately I never studdied maths to that level myself, science just required statistics (although I was never a graph fan as I said), and all the symbols for formal logic are standard ones in programming anyway, though as I said previously tree diagrams were sort of out.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-24 16:56:59

As to why braille isn't feasible for me, its expensive (financially and time-wise) to obtain material in braille, so much so that I've switched to using latex for my math needs wherever possible. I took a closer look at the book and it seems that only the augmented matrices of linear systems aren't recognizing correctly. The matrices in other chapters all come out fine, maybe its some difference in the way they're formatted?

@CX2: as of jaws 16 anyways, I've actually not had any problems with discrete math so far. Jaws now reads the symbols for logical and, or, the arrow for implication and equivalent. Granted, we're still in chapter 1, and I may come up against something else in the future.

2015-01-24 18:21:17

Braille is not expensive.  Anyone who can use word can make it for you.  Your office for students with disabilities, should they have a tiger printer, can pay a student worker the standard student worker rates; as a result, braille becomes barely more expensive than any other accessible text conversion process.  While LaTeX works well for writing, it doesn't work well at all for reading the kinds of matrices that a typical linear algebra course will use nor does it work well for really complicated expressions.  The net cost to get your materials in braille, at least at this university, is under $10 an hour.  The only reason it would be more is if yours pays student workers more, and the up front cost for a printer supporting the tiger software is only about $5000 and need only be paid once for all blind students now and in the future.
Do not buy into the "braille is expensive" story.  It is not true.  The amount of money required for your university to make your materials in braille is so small that it's not even a blip.  While it is true that your OSD or equivalent may not have the budget *now*, you don't cost more than 2 or 3 students and even small universities are pulling in millions of dollars of profit a year.  This is a fight you should have and, if you have it in the U.S., you will win.  The "braille is expensive" people are either ignorant of the fact that we have technology or are trying to keep you as a blind student from asking for it so they don't have to deal with the trouble it causes.
Let me put it this way.  If the professor can give it to the OSD as a word document, even if it contains math, the turnaround time can be as low as ten minutes.  I have had tests delivered to them and converted to braille the same day.  They did 5 chapters of a calculus 3 book in a month and the person who did it doesn't even know braille-I must give the disclaimer that I've not got them yet because of bureaucracy that's not their fault, but the person who did it did a bunch of other math stuff fine so I'm not expecting major problems.

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2015-01-24 23:01:23

Urr... depends on the university?
Tigers were $10k, last I checked. There's a whole one in my state. Easier to use one of the lesser embossers with dedicated software.

Brailling a whole STEM book at once isn't what we're talking about, though. That is ludicrously expensive, indeed. But what course ever uses the entire book? Ever? My braillist got into the habit of just doing one chapter at a time (well, he'd try to stay a couple ahead).
When I visited Purdue, they told me they just print the materials a student needs on as short a notice as is logistically feasible. Financially, they have things much better than a university not set in a rich city, but the method is practical on a less equipped campus as well.

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2015-01-25 00:15:40

$10k. Once. Forever. And it removes the need to know braille, which is the killer here.  I pay $12k a year to my university, all be it not out of pocket.  Even at that price, that's tuition and dorm for 1 year for one student
The assumption is that braille is expensive.  The truth is that it is not.  It is only expensive when compared to your personal funds.  Even without a tiger, you can do it for a whole lot less than the assumption is typically-and yes, you typically don't need the whole book, either.

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2015-01-25 01:20:18 (edited by cx2 2015-01-25 01:25:37)

Victorious, good to know. My experiences were admittedly around ten years ago and it was rather awkward to say the least. I ended up having to invent my own notation which I can't remember any of now.

Camlorn, $10,000 is a lot when you need to get the university's beancounters to sign off on it. Even having a third party produce the braille on the university's behalf could be tricky to get past the beancounters simply because it involves a new outgoing to a new supplier. I'm not saying this is right but we have to be realistic, and regardless of the benefits a $10,000 expenditure would need to be reviewed by some relatively senior people because that's quite a chunk of money. Sure it might not break the bank for the university but they can't just drop that much cash on something without going through proper process, though often it should be easier to get the process moving than it is in the real world.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-25 02:27:24

Um. Realistic is knowing that you have precedent on your side at this point.  You do realize that there have been at least two settlements in the last 4 years, and one of them was for something near $100k? I believe there have actually been more than that.  Yes, you have to have the battle and yes you have to do your homework. But I am being very, very realistic.  The universities will sign off when the alternative is a PR scandal and a settlement.  I'm not saying go that far, but make it clear you will go that far from the start if you have to, do stuff by e-mail when possible, request things in writing, and watch how tunes start changing.
I'm not saying that every university should have a tiger, but I've come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no excuse to not have access to braille for math as a blind college student.  Once this is done, it is done for everyone and forever, and unless you have independent living issues, you can also look around to find out what other universities are equipped if you really don't want to have this battle.  I have problems with NFB, but if you can get them on your side at the point of a lawsuit, you've got a pretty big hammer.  No, you can't do this by being nice about it, though you should start by being nice about it.  But the attitude of "I'm blind, braille costs money, and so obviously I shouldn't even seriously ask" hurts all of us.

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2015-01-25 10:30:03

@Camlorn,  I think this is a cultural difference here. Bare in mind in Britain universities are already struggling for cash anyway (one reason student fees are so insane and getting insanerer), and will reffuse disabled students places if they believe the expense or inconvenience factor is too great (I have known it happen).

Also remember in Britain no student is forced! to go to university and do maths, indeed at one university which shal remain nameless, *Cough! York *Cough! I was told "why are you studdying philosophy, why don't you do computer science that is what blind people usually do and the stuff is already prepared"

Equally, bare in mind in Britain even if the process of funding works correctly, it is the student! who is given their own personal grant for equipment, not the university who must provide for some hypothetical disabled students. Depending upon how the over all battle goes, the university's disability services might recieve the student's individual grant and distribute it, or the student might get some say over it (in my case sinse the disability service at Durham are morons I completely administrated my own). This means rather than the university having to purchice the braille embosser and fund someone using it, it's left up to either the student themselves to arrange accessible material be created, or the university to pay an external agency to provide materials out of the student's own disabled student's allowance, like the Rnib, ---- indeed the Rnib have quite the nice monopoly going on braille creation. This is what one totally blind doctor off Chemistry I know did.

Ultimately a university would be very! unlikely to use several thousand quid to purchice their own embosser for some hypothetical future blind students, and the individual grant any specific blind student might have would not be enough to afford one of their own (and even if they did, they'd take it with them when they left the university).

Equally however, this system isn't perhaps as unfare as you might think, ---- well not if you don't count the university disability services often laying down the law on what a disabled student can or cannot do with their own grant. In the Uk, people are required to either buy their own text books or borrow them from the university library (and there is no guarantee on that). While subjects like maths and science will print out papers and exercises for students, the actual text books will not be.

The plane fact is while Braille production perhaps is not expensive for an institution, it is! for an individual, (disabled student grants are not that generous), and at least in the Uk, universities work far more on an individualistic level even as far as sighted students go, ---- indeed I'm personally not in favour of those disability services who try and tell! a student what they should spend their own grant money on as though an institution would know better than the individual person themselves what they need for their own educational needs.

This is why Cx2 is correct in his "Be realistic" statement, at least as far as universities in Britain go. yes, it would be awsome if everywhere owned braille embossers, but the plane truth is they don't, and on an individual level the dam things are too expensive.

This is another reason I'd love to see a comparatively cheap, (ie under usd 500), full screen tactile display in the future, sinse far more people could afford and use it on an individual level and we'd have none of these wars with institutions or monopolising so called charities.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-01-25 19:05:47

Also I never said don't ask, and I never said things are as easy as they should be. Beurocratic inertia and apathy are a problem just about everywhere you look when it comes to service provision. Part of my point was you have to expect at least a certain amount of effort to be involved even in a perfect system. 10k is a lot of money and they need to be certain that it is justified, in an ideal system your disability department would support you in making your case of course but there would still need to be a case made. You can't just hold your hand up and say "I'm blind, can I have 10k please" and nor should you be able to, there needs to be at least a little give and take involved. In the real world you need more giving of the boot than you honestly should have to but since when has being blind been simple?

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2015-01-26 16:16:41

For me, I can't' imagine having to do maths without braille.  I tried it once, and the amount of time it took me to process the information was ridiculous.
I know what you mean about the disabled students allowance Dark.  I was told before university that 'no, you will have a laptop.   you won't need a braille note'... a year on and with research, I realised that having a braille sense or whatever it's called would make my life about 10 times easier.  I've put my case forward multiple times, with the backing of my senco, and they won't budge.  I've definitely realised after going from a school where getting braille was incredibly easy due to them having a specialised unit for VI students, through college and now university, where it is far, far scarcer, that braille provides me with access to information in a way that listening to a screenreader never can.

2015-01-26 19:20:40

Before I had braille in any form, i.e. through Calc 2, it was simple: I had a reader. And then I got out the delightful perkins brailler (limiting where I can meet the reader, because just imagine trying to get that across campus with a guide dog and a backpack and several other things) or the much less useful PACMate (because it fits in said backpack).  And then i brailled stuff myself.  Which sucks just about as much as it sounds like it does, and the only reason it worked at all is because I got a one in a million reader who didn't do it for the money but rather because he thought it was a genuinely fun and fulfilling thing to do and, on top of that, had the needed computer science and math knowledge to turn it into something sensible.
But it ends up as braille anyway, at least if I'm doing mathematical manipulations above a certain complexity.  This complexity goes up as you practice with the computer, but never entirely goes away.  You can't succeed long-term without braille.  You can only push the point at which you need it back and maybe get lucky and never go far enough that you fail without it.

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2015-01-27 15:34:03

I don't think that I'll have to do math at a higher enough level to require braille.

I was looking for something to alleviate the pain of reading tonnes of formatting spam in a latex source document for tests and such, and I found a programme called pandoc that may be useful for some here. It is an open source command-line converter between numerous text formats, and has good support for math rendering in html documents. I was able to feed in a latex source, and get an easy to read html file with the actual inline math preserved as latex.

Btw, is it possible to convert tex into latex? One f my  professors uses tex instead of latex, and right now the document he sent me causes an error in pandoc when I try converting.

2015-01-27 16:33:26

Pandoc is not converting LaTeX.  Pandoc is converting some small portion of LaTeX that it happens to understand.  As soon as you throw an actually complicated document at it it's going to choke and die hard.  The issue you are having is this, not Tex vs. LaTeX.  If you want to be able to always do the conversion, you'll need a full LaTeX toolchain.
That said, what are your pandoc command line options?  I could potentially use that for my blog given that we don't have MathML yet and aren't likely to get it soon.  I figured out how to get Mathjax going, but that's not exactly accessible; I'm assuming you found a way to do it is images with alt text or something.
As for math, well, you're in linear algebra.  I sure hope you're feeling confident about those 6 by 6 matrices.  I can promise you with complete certainty that it is taking you much longer to do matrix manipulations without braille, at least unless you got some sort of special permission to just use Python for it or something.  The long and the short of it is that only pretty smart people can go far without braille in math.  It's just not something that is easy or sane.  This is why I hate the braille is expensive students-if you asked and got it set up, it's set up for anyone else who needs it and helps to set the precedent for the future.  But maybe this isn't the U.S. or another first world country.

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2015-01-27 17:27:47 (edited by Victorious 2015-01-27 17:30:30)

Converting in.tex to html:

pandoc -f latex -R -s -m -t html -o "out.html" "in.tex"
pause

There are other possible switches you can use for math rendering, one of which renders the math in graphics but with accessible latex captions.

I do see your point about braille support. Right now, the level of braille support present is 0; no embossers, transcribers etc. By the time any requests I put in for braille support get processed and set up, the course will likely be over. It'll probably be something that'll be useful for future semester though. Its also been years since I've touched braille (let alone math), not to mention the changes that I'll have to get used to with the transition to UEB, so I don't think it'll work for me right now.

I'm in introductory math courses right now, so pandoc dying on more complex documents is not something i'm not too worried about for now. Can you elaborate on what you mean by a latex toolchain and how to set it up? It sounds like something worth doing.

2015-01-27 18:02:52

I can't elaborate on the LaTeX toolchain, as I've not done it-I use Mathtype for what little I need.  It will take a few hours to download, though-the one I installed a long time ago as part of Cygwin comes out to something like 12 GB.  It basically includes all the tools and fonts to actually process these documents properly, as well as the LaTeX libraries and preambles that Pandoc doesn't know about.  LaTeX is actually a full programming language, though few people who aren't developing \sin and whatnot actually use it as such.
I'll have to go through your Pandoc switches later.  I tried to work out how to get inline math to render as images via markdown, but may need to just drop into LaTeX for those articles.  My blog is extensible and I've basically directed all article generation through Pandoc already with a little Python snippet, so I just need to append the right switches and remove Mathjax.  Ideally, I can get math in jpg form with LaTeX alt text, though I'm not sure how this integrates. We'll see.
As for UEB, why?  If you go the tiger route, it'll translate to whatever you set it to translate to, including grade 2 and Nemeth.  UEB is interesting, but the long and the short of it is that UEB doesn't appear to even come close to beating Nemeth, and it's not on my list of things I really care about learning, ever.  Their attempt is nice and I get why they're doing it, but far too little and far too late.  We've already got automated software for the old codes.  The only reason I could see them forcing UEB is if they hired a specialist who did the translation completely by hand; this is not likely.

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