2014-07-24 14:15:40

Hi to all Linux users on here,
I have the Problem, that I want to try out Linux with an actual Distribution. But ever when I look to such things, I don't know what's most state of the art in regards to assistive Technologies and what to take. I heart that Ubuntu for example has issues in the latest Versions regarding the accessibility Features. Wich distributions do you recomment wich are actual in accessibility and not to difficult for a beginner in this Linux wolrd? I use speech and Braille most of the time together.
Thank you already for help.
best regards
Niklas

2014-07-24 14:31:10

There is vinux.org.uk which is a ready set up Linux distribution you can either install or run from disc to try it out, though I'm not sure it's being updated any more sadly. Aside from that you've hit on the exact problem Linux has all around, there's so many versions no one knows where to start.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2014-07-24 14:57:52

Depends on what you need. Are you looking to stay at the command line, or do you want to go GUI? It's going GUI which is where the trouble starts, naturally. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2014-07-24 16:52:37

I'm curious what you'd suggest for staying at the command line? I might have a play with something like that.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2014-07-24 17:45:23 (edited by Sebby 2014-07-24 17:46:57)

How deep do you want to get into this?

Debian is an excellent binary distribution with a reputation for maintainability, because the package manager does all the work. However, it's all policies and patches, so it's arguable that you are not using a "Real" Linux distribution with vanilla packages. However, it's a fairly safe haven, with enough user-friendliness to get going.

If you actually want to learn stuff, I'd suggest one of Gentoo, Arch, or Slackware, in that order. You will lose many hours of your life, but when you come back to Debian--as you inevitably will--you'll know how a good deal of it works.

Happy tinkering.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-07-24 18:53:08

Vinux is really meant for beginners, it is built so you don't need to worry about installing inaccessible stuff to begin with and it tells you if something is not going to work. They also have tutorials on their website for vinux. I would say try out vinux first, then make sure you can use the console apps there before moving to one of the others, but that is just my opinion.
And supposedly Vinux will have a new update coming out very soon...

2014-07-24 20:07:54

ah, okay. I wasn't sure about vinux because it hasn't been updated for a Long time. I hadn't know that it's still in development. First I Need something for beginners to start with since I came from Windows and had no much experience with Linux in the past.

2014-07-24 21:09:00

Hi,
I use ubuntu Gnome in a VM. Quite accessible, but scary, since in the desktop ORCA stops talking wtill you press some keystroke. I have had no experience with Linux and haven't experimented with it recently, but it's a recommendation anyway. Don't use the regular Ubuntu, it doesn't go as well as Ubuntu Gnome. I'm limiting myself to the Ubuntu distribution, because I decided to start from there, no idea how the rest work.

2014-07-24 22:10:17

4 things you need to know about linux that is different than windows:
the windows key takes you to your desktop
the alt+f1 key opens the start menu. the alt+f10 key opens the control panel (I think it is that last key command, it may be start+f10).
and f10 is the only button to open the menu bar. the alt key opens the run dialogue.

2014-07-24 23:45:34

ah okay, thank you for the Information. Maybe I should try ubuntu Gnome out? First, i think I would try out GUI and than the console, so the distrobution should offer both in an accessible way. It seems that the Gnome Project makes lots of things or puts lots of efford into These Technologies.

2014-07-25 09:49:24

Niklas, if I were you I'd either begin with Vinux for or Ubuntu Gnome 14.04.

Vinux 4 is a decent distribution for beginners because everything is more or less configured for a blind user out of the box, and was designed primarily for those just getting use to Linux. Plus it comes with both Speakup and Orca meaning you have full command-line and graphical access from the start. However, the downside of Vinux is that is does not get updated all that frequently.

Ubuntu Gnome 14 is the latest version of Ubuntu with the Gnome desktop. The upside is you get a fairly up to date distribution with new versions of Gnome and Orca, and with a little tweaking can become a very powerful Linux distribution. The advantage of the Gnome version of U Ubuntu is that Gnome is the most accessible graphical user interface for Linux right now, and is better than the stock version of Ubuntu which ships with Unity. The disadvantage with going with Ubuntu Gnome is sometimes you will get packages that are so new that they have not been fully debugged for accessibility. So you need to be willing to tweak the installations a bit to get the maximum access out of your Linux system.

Frastlin, the information you posted in post 9 is in correct. For one thing keyboard commands are not universal across desktop environments and are different from desktop to desktop and sometimes from distribution to distribution. You might want to preface such statements with Linux distribution and desktop as keyboard commands can differ from distribution and desktop. That said, I think you are speaking here from in experience.

For one thing Linux desktops do not have a "Start Menu" as such. On Unity desktops alt+f1 opens the Launcher Bar. On Mate alt+f1 opens the Panel Menu. On Gnome 3.x alt+f1 opens the Dash. See what I mean about keyboard commands being distribution and desktop specific?

As for the Windows key, known as the super key on Linux, most of the time it opens the Dash on Gnome and Unity desktops. I can't say from experience what it does on other desktops, but the super key never opens the desktop itself. To go to the desktop usually there is a specific command like alt+control+d to focus the desktop.

As for alt+f10 I am not sure what you mean by the Control Panel. I assume here you are talking about the Top Panel in Vinux where various settings etc are. This is a case of needing to learn the proper terminology for things rather than simply applying Windows terminology to things that is very incorrect. Most versions of Linux have a control panel similar to Windows, but it is not called that in Linux. Many desktops use Gnome Control Center which is more or less like the Windows Control Panel.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2014-07-25 10:17:27

After many years, I'm here again, thinking on stay.

Yesterday I was asking myself on it: someone told me that Orca is not so developed as Windows screen readers like JAWS and even NVDA. When I tried Ubuntu in 2011, in addition to usual difficulties Linux have for Windows users and there were many inaccessible apps, Ubuntu was updated to use Uniti instead of Gnome and accessibility was a disaster.
Internet browsing and emailing with Orca was not responsive, and many Orca important functions had no keystrokes assigned.

Now, my question: Does anyone use some Linux distribution daily and not only for testing purposes? It includes home users that have no Windows at all, home users which have Windows only as a secondary OS and users which use Linux at work, for example on servers. If there are no such users, this debate will not have sense shortly sad

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.

2014-07-25 13:17:52

Fergregoire94, I use Linux daily. In fact, I do consider it my primary operating system. That said, I won't say it is for everybody. Access wise it is ahead of Windows in some areas and behind in others. However, comparing Orca to Windows screen readers like Jaws, Window-Eyes, and even NVDA is a little misleading.

One thing you need to understand here when comparing Orca to Windows screen readers is accessibility works totally different in Linux. Unlike Windows screen readers that use a variety of methods of gathering onscreen information either via a Windows API, a custom off-screen model, etc Orca obtains everything from the accessibility API at-spi2. If your application, or the graphical toolkit it uses, doesn't have at-spi2 support then it will not work with Orca. It isn't Orca's fault but the fault of the application or the toolkit it uses. Unfortunately, people who make such comparison's are not that technical, aren't aware of the differences in how the technology works, so are prone to make unfair comparisons between Orca and some Windows screen reader like Jaws they are more familiar with.

Anyway, I think you'll find in a properly configured Linux system Orca can hold its own in comparison to most Windows screen readers. It may not support every Linux application you want, but those it does work with generally are reasonably accessible. I can use Firefox for internet, Thunderbird for e-mail, Gedit for basic text editing, LibreOffice for office documents, Pidgin for instant messaging, Totem for multimedia, etc. In short, I can do most of what I'd do on a Windows system in Linux with reasonable access with Orca. Access could certainly be better, but I am satisfied with it on a day to day basis.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2014-07-26 03:07:12 (edited by fergregoire94 2014-07-26 06:54:44)

Tward, your actual experience is interesting. I'm sure you will encourage some users to jump into the GNU/Linux world.
The fact that Orca cannot support every GNU/Linux application is not a fault; like on Windows and almost on any operating system, developers sometimes build non-standard interfaces or unlabeled controls. Moreover, openness of Linux sometimes also have unpredictable behavior outside of accessibility.

Do you know accessible Linux-based software for Z-code and Glulx games? This is particularly interesting, since we are on Audiogames.

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.

2014-07-26 04:12:02

@fergregoire94: To answer your question, yes I use Linux at the CLI only, for running servers, on a hobby and pro basis. I personally consider the state of graphical Linux accessibility to be inadequate, but we're all different, and as Tward says, it's entirely possible that this is not the case for everybody. I do use OS X as my primary desktop OS for now, although my desire to hop back to an environment with more flexibility--probably Windows--is growing.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-07-26 04:48:20

Fergregoire94, yes, as a matter of fact I do. I myself use Frotz for Linux with the Speakup screen reader for playing Zcode and Glulx based games. In addition I use an interpreter called Scare for playing a number of games written in Adrift. Scare doesn't support everything, but it does allow me to play some games written in Adrift 3 and 4 on Linux. There are also CLI interpreters for Tads and AGT text games if you want them So as far as text based games goes the sky is the limit on Linux..

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2014-07-26 06:00:30

For those wondering about the sonar project, you can now find it at its "new" home!
http://sonargnulinux.com/
And try out the "new!" Sonar beta, from now on being based off of "Manjaro," at:
http://sonargnulinux.com/?p=99

As a side note, for general and Sonar GNU/Linux talk, see the "Support" mailing list in the menu. And for Sonar development, see the "Dev" list.

2014-07-26 07:12:10

Tward experiences make me think that it requires a lot of effort, but if someone is committed to learn new principles and experiment with many settings (settings understood as specific distros, not only options), you could stop using Windows for most of the tasks.

As Sebby says, GUI accessibility on GNU/Linux seems inadequate. As a newcomer when I tried Ubuntu, for example, I felt to be lost many times: sometimes I could arrive to certain important areas, sometimes Orca with Espeak simply stopped responding, and many times I opened help topics I couldn't read. I hope the situation was changed on these three years.

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.

2014-07-26 09:37:14

Goodness I thought I could just jump into this one before anyone else could even reply to it. Part of the reason why I even bothered to recover this account to begin with.
It does look like Hunter grunt/tward stole my thunder though. You go dude, Guy knows his stuff.
I personally use Ubuntu on a daily basis. I have a laptop that's got it installed as a main operating system now as it is. I run it on a virtual machine on my new windows eight laptop that I got for Christmas last year. This year? And I can even run it as a virtual machine on the apple mini I got a few years back.
I Was even able to install it with no sighted assistance what so ever.
it is just as he said though. Spread sheets, document editing, even playing muds. Running your own mud, moo, mux. Mush server is possible on all my boxes, towers. Whatever they're calling them now.
I've been meaning to try v-Linux, but never got around to it. I really should run it through it's pases over here. See what I can make it crank out.
Well, there's my two sense worth in. I'll just creep over in this direction now and check out the other threads while I'm here.

The eyes, unfortunately, are not the windows to the soul. They are, however, the windows to deception. Trust not what your eyes see, for they can be easily fooled.

2014-07-27 07:26:53

Fergregoire94, I think at this point the biggest issue a new Linux user has with Linux as far as accessibility goes is simply his or her unfamiliarity with the operating system, screen reader, and the graphical desktop he or she may be using. It is those kinds of things that makes or breaks a person's end user experience with Linux.

For example, in your post above you mentioned having problems reading certain help topics in Gnome or Unity. What probably was never explained to you in order to read a help topic in help you first have to enable carrot browsing with f7. If you don't do that the help system is going to appear inaccessible and problematic for a screen reader user. Its a classic case of something being accessible, but the end user not knowing what to do to use the technology. So since you didn't know what to do to make the help browser accessible you assumed it wasn't.

The more I spend time with new Linux users, those who come from Windows, I find lack of knowledge accounts for the better part of access issues. I'm not saying there aren't any legitimate access issues, there certainly are, but often times there is a quick or simple workaround for an access issue that the end user simply didn't know about because they assumed access should work one way and it turns out they needed to do something else instead. The fact of the matter is Linux requires more of the end user to get it up and running smoothly and if a person lacks those skills or the experience to do that he or she is in for a negative experience more or less because of their lack of know-how.

That said, there definitely are some legitimate access issues on Linux that need to be dealt with. These issues certainly can and do lead to an a less that satisfactory experience for some users, and it is something that needs to be considered weather the access issue is a deal breaker for the end user or not.

For example, on the stock Ubuntu 14 distribution it comes with the Unity desktop. Unity is 80% to 90% accessible. However, there are times where something such as the Dash doesn't work well with Orca yet. I personally don't need it so do without using the Dash, but someone else might want access to that feature of the desktop and find it is an unsatisfactory experience because of it.

However, here is the nice thing about Linux Windows users consistently overlook time and again. You aren't stuck with just one graphical user interface. If Unity doesn't work for you there are other options. There is the Gnome desktop which is becoming fairly accessible these days, and is probably the best end user experience for a blind user right now. there is also Mate which is a continuation of the old Gnome 2.x desktop which is also a reasonable option.  Linux is all about customizability and its up to the end user to find the customization that works best for him or her. The problem is a new user doesn't know where to begin or what to do to get Linux to work the way he or she wants. that is where access really breaks down because there is no access for dummies type book or tutorial that lays it all out for a new user.

I'll simply reaffirm what you said above. Yes, it does require a bit of effort to get working properly, but once a person gets up and running with a decent distribution, running an accessible desktop, there isn't a lot of need to run windows unless someone absolutely wants to. I've been able to do most of what I want to do in Linux with reasonable access for about three or four years, and while it requires some tweaking on my part I was willing to put the time and effort into learning about how to get the most out of the operating system and apps.

I'll be the first to say my end user experience hasn't been perfect or as good as I personally would like. There are a number of cases I could mention here where access is not as good as it could be or as good as it should be. Firefox and thunderbird are a couple of cases in point. However, I put up with the access issues, because over all I like the operating system, and am willing to compromise on some issues to get things I want from the OS. Someone else like yourself coming from a Windows background may not have my reasons for using the OS and would find the access issues unsatisfactory and give up on Linux because you have different expectations and uses for the software.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2014-07-27 08:26:41

Tward, I absolutely agree with your above phrase:

The problem is a new user doesn't know where to begin or what to do to get Linux to work the way he or she wants. that is where access really breaks down because there is no access for dummies type book or tutorial that lays it all out for a new user.

Orca offers some learning messages and I think it should be more acurate, but I'm aware that differences between desktops would make this a lot hard.
Another thing I've seen for many distributions is that instead of documenting Orca's behavior and how tos on a particular distro's documentation, the user is sent to the generic Orca documentation. Although it is probably no problem for experienced users, I think that new users may want to know the way Orca behaves on most relevant parts of the main shell of the distro he or she chose. In other words, documentation of many distros seem to be disconnected from Orca, since the links about Universal Access (the case of Ubuntu, for example) simply send people to the generic help: that help is suited for getting information about specific questions of the screen reader such as setting, pronunciation dictionaries, braille display drivers and scripting, but it isn't the most useful for a person to know the way of applying the tricks described on introductory guides of his/her distro, explained assuming the user will not use any assistive technology.

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.

2014-07-27 17:14:10

BTW: I heard something about the sonar Project. What do you think about this Distribution, especially in comparison to vinux or ubuntu Gnome?

2014-07-27 18:32:31

I'll leave someone else to compare Arch vs GNOME distros, but I can't forget 3 other ones that come to mind which have good accessibility:
http://paldo.org/
,
http://fedoraproject.org
and ,
http://trisquel.info/

Oh, and of course!
http://debian.org

2014-07-27 22:21:16

Fedora, especially. You should look at that, if for no other reason that the packaging and policies are much more relaxed than Debian-style distros. I do think in this day and age, it's realistic to value one's time, and use a distro that helps you get stuff done by tracking deps.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-07-27 23:50:46

Have someone idea of any other distro than Ubuntu with something like Wubi? It is a Windows installation file that allow to install Ubuntu in the desired partition and add an entry to the Windows bootloader, so you can select which operating system to startup with no need of modifying the MBR. Checking the current Windows settings, this installer automates regional and language settings and detects the user name to ease initial setup.

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.