Thanks kamochek, now the link worked for me too. I'll check it out later.
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
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can a blind person drive a car? (Page 2 of 2)
AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → can a blind person drive a car?
Posts: 26 to 49 of 49
#26 2014-04-16 22:07:52
#27 2014-04-16 22:16:23
Moderation!
Camochek, please start using the edit post function rather than creating these long strings of double posts, it would make matters much easier to read. While a bit of double posting is okay, especially when there is a good reason, remember this isn't a chat program where you can just rattle off lots of one line messages.
@Peter, I am quite aware of sight complexity as I have a small amount of vision myself, however I would not just dismiss the idea of sensory overload, sinse practically speaking if something is going to be so complex as to require years of training before it is meaningful I don't know how many people would bennifit from it. Certainly this has generally proved to be the problem with other sensory substitution projects I've seen, so that for example recognizing the same object twice or gaining information on perspective and space (certainly information needed to drive a car), hasn't really happened for the majority of users. This is why the ultracanes were useful, sinse their translation was so simple it was obvious to pick up and use.
still I wouldn't know without hearing the thing in acton, though I'm sorry your not developing an Ios version.
@Bryan, I personally intend to get a self driving car if they become available even if I am a grumpy old man. Heck, I'll be able to join in with all the other grumpy old men complaining at those idiotic kids who don't know how to drive and how it wasn't like that in my day 
.
With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)
#28 2014-04-16 23:12:01
Hi kamochek,
> did you hared of amir amedi's research and of eyeMusic before i said about it?
Absolutely! Amir Amedi and I worked together for years. I developed The vOICe image-to-sound mapping technology while he used it in his Neuroscience research. One of the coauthored papers resulting from this cooperation is the 2007 Nature Neuroscience paper "Shape conveyed by visual-to-auditory sensory substitution activates the lateral occipital complex", available as a PDF file at http://www.tmslab.org/publications/127.pdf and the most recent paper in which Amir Amedi used The vOICe appeared last month in Current Biology, titled "Visual cortex extrastriate body-selective area activation in congenitally blind people “seeing” by using sounds", available as a PDF file at http://brain.huji.ac.il/publications/El … A_2014.pdf
Best regards,
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#29 2014-04-16 23:45:35
Hi Dark,
> practically speaking if something is going to be so complex as to require years of training
> before it is meaningful I don't know how many people would bennifit from it
Your point is well-taken. I cannot predict how much effort blind people are willing to spend in return for what benefit. Learning to play the piano also takes years of practice, so why not learning to see. I guess we will need blind role models who can demonstrate to the world what is achievable, much like we have concert pianists.
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#30 2014-04-17 00:03:30
Even though it was. LOL.
But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!
#31 2014-04-17 08:58:27
That is not exactly what I meant peter, if something is worth doing such as learning to play the piano and people have an overbaring desire to do it, people will do it, that is a question of worth to the person.
With learning to make sense of a sensory cross modal system however it is a question of the content provided by the information and the extra effort needed to interpret that information on a dayly basis, as opposed to the effort needed to use traditional mobility aids and techniques for getting around in day to day life. After all if a person is listening to some sight sensory substitute program they won't be listening for things in their environment with as much concentration or be able to expend as much attendtion on say using a cane.
projects like this have been tried going back as far as the 1950's, however they have usually not succeeded sinse even with massive amounts of practice, the people involved have not derived enough information on a regular basis to credit the need to expend their attention on the device as opposed to say just listening for things around them, sinse a person can only listen to and pay attention to a certain amount of things at once.
This is why the ultracane was a good solution sinse though it provided a limited amount of information, it also didn't add to the sensory overload of the people using it too much either.
As a good example, look at the navigation in audio games. The most successful games have been those which used positional object sounds rather than relying on the person learning a complex abstracted set of sound kews or scans, indeed usually when such scans have been successful it is when they show only one peace of information, for example a targeting beacon, object detector or a sonar that simply shows the distance from in front of the character to the nearest wall.
Thus, abstracting the massive amount of visual informationn, colour, perspective, texture, super position etc to sound would take a massive load of senses to interpret even when the person was used to the system, and it is whether the information gleaned from such interpretation is worth it to the person covers the amount of effort and attention the person must expend.
This has generally been why such projects haven't succeeded before, not due to lack of dedication on the part of the users, but simply the balance of sensory input that needs new interpetation vs the attention that balance requires, against the balance of what a person would be doing with their hearing normally.
heck, I have recently myself started using the blind square ap for Iphone which provides sat nav information about what is around, and even getting to listen to that as well as listen for things in the street (and that with my guide dog), takes extra effort and concentration and means I've missed some environmental sounds.
With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)
#32 2014-04-17 20:33:41
Hi Dark,
I do not think we are going to resolve the issues here. There are different "philosophies" concerning high-information and low-information displays. Neither has thus far had much commercial success. You already mentioned that the Ultracane is no longer on the market. Another example is the Sonic Pathfinder that was specifically designed to warn only for approaching (not receding) obstacles through some minimal beeping, but it too never really caught on. Different users will want different things anyway. Some congenitally blind users find it fun to experience first-hand what sight is like, while others focus more on the practical uses and the trade-offs that it brings. It is not black and white. The vOICe can be kept muted when not needed or when safety is an issue, and its volume can be adjusted to the situation at hand. Only time - and actual training and use - will tell how cost/benefit trade-offs pan out, with differences of opinion along the road. It often takes much time for a novel approach to make a compelling case against mature and established approaches, and training is key. Even with the long cane one needs solid training for safe and effective travel.
Best regards,
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#33 2014-04-17 20:49:58
ehi petr.
which program was developed first: the VOICe or the EM/eyeMusic?
kamochek.
kamochek.
#34 2014-04-17 21:40:50
Hi kamochek,
> which program was developed first: the VOICe or the EM/eyeMusic?
The vOICe program was developed much earlier, with the first version of The vOICe Learning Edition software for Microsoft Windows released in January 1998. In 2003 I developed a version of The vOICe for Nokia Symbian phones, and in 2008 the first version of The vOICe for Android was released.
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#35 2014-04-17 21:48:28
hi.
and when EM was developed first?
and does amir amedi know your VOICe program?
kamochek.
kamochek.
#36 2014-04-17 22:00:52
Hi kamochek,
> and when EM was developed first?
You'd have to ask Amir Amedi, but I think it was around 2012.
> and does amir amedi know your VOICe program?
I already mentioned in yesterday's post that he used The vOICe in much of his neuroscience research.
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#37 2014-04-17 23:35:45
My first impulse regarding vision substitution has always been tactile, up until I started programming / discovered the vOICe (these were around the same time), and even then, I never really put much thought into using audio for vision replacement until Aprone gave it a try (we ultimately decided to try a much higher-level approach compared to the vOICe, so, naturally, the project collapsed.). Unfortunately, haptic displays only nominally exist, which I can only assume is because it's a hardware thing that doesn't have multiple giant companies working on it the way audio and video do (otherwise, instead of Senseg, ReduxST and a few smaller groups sort of talking at the darkness in ways troublingly remoniscent of me... from highschool).
Having said all that, I do find the idea of using haptic feedback for driving a car to be ... bizarre. That's the sort of situation where something more like the vOICe seems more appropriate (Disclaimer: I'm not recommending anyone try this with current technology!).
(Random question: why do turn signals make noise inside the vehicle, but not outside? And why did no one point this out... about the time turn signals became ubiquitous?)
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George... Don't do that.
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#38 2014-04-18 15:10:23
The only problem is, that sighted people have a much wider range in which they could see objects. Regarding VOICE or Eye Music, it may be something experimental, but I wouldn't use this tool while walking around somewhere outside, cuz on the one hand I "hear" the objects around me, on the other hand I may, because of the beeping noises, not be able to listen to people talking to or with me, this would not be useful in a conversation, or does it detects speech either and will generate beep tones for it? That wouldn't work out well. 
About blind people driving a car and artificial intelligence, I once have had a nightmare. I was sitting next to my mother in the passengers seat and my mother forgot something at home. So she got out, the engine was still running and the doors were closed. Suddenly, the car was speeding up, maybe to 50 kilometers per hour, and I was sitting in the passengers seat, scared because I did not know where I currently was and when the journey would end. The car seemed to stop at traffic lights and was driving in a normal speed through who-knows-where. I jumped into the driver's-space and began using the horn, to atract anyone's attention. Nothing really happened, in fact, other cars joined into the horn-consert while the car was driving on and on. And, there was definitely nobody else than me in this freakin car, for sure!
I don't know how this horror trip ended, I woke up.
Since then, I allways feel some kinda suspicious when thinking of sitting allone in a car which is driving on "it's own". At least I know where I am supposed to strand, but I am still a little shocked because of that nightmare, which must have been one or two years ago.
If the day would come when blind people are allowed to own and controll a car with built-in AI, I surely would do my best to get my hands on one of those cars, but I definitely will think of that nightmare, there's no way around it.
Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
#39 2014-04-18 16:19:15
Note: kamochek has split off the discussion on The vOICe and EyeMusic to a separate topic at http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172399 which I think was a good idea because nobody wants to suggest using either program for driving a car.
Peter
Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com
#40 2014-04-18 17:03:40
Self-driving cars may be closer than you all are thinking. Many different companies are working on their own implementations of it, and a few even, as you guys know, already have a prototype built. Check out this page on Wikipedia, worth a read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car
Automotive companies have made many predictions on the development of self-driving cars which copied from the Wikipedia page, follow below.
•By 2014, Israeli company Mobileye expects to release semi-autonomous car technology.
•Late 2014, Volvo will feature Adaptive Cruise Control with steer assist which will automatically follow the vehicle ahead in queues.
•Late 2014, The National Telecommunications and Information Administration is expected to set recommendations for setting aside broadband spectrum for autonomous cars.
•By 2015, Audi plans to market vehicles that can autonomously steer, accelerate and brake at lower speeds, such as in traffic jams.
•By 2015, Cadillac plans vehicles with "super cruise": autonomous steering, braking and lane guidance.[99] This technology will likely spread to other GM models in following years.
•By 2015, Nissan expects to sell vehicles with autonomous steering, braking, lane guidance, throttle, gear shifting, and, as permitted by law, unoccupied self-parking after passengers exit.
•By Mid-2010's, Toyota plans to roll out near-autonomous vehicles dubbed Automated Highway Driving Assist with Lane Trace Control and Cooperative-adaptive Cruise Control.
•By 2016, Mobileye expects to release fully autonomous car technology.
•January 1, 2017 The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration hopes to mandate the adoption of Vehicle-to-Vehicle technology on all new automobiles.
•By 2017, Tesla plans an "autopilot" feature that handles 90% of miles driven. Tesla has partnered with Mobileye.
•By 2018, Google expects to release their autonomous car technology.
•By 2020, Volvo envisages having cars in which passengers would be immune from injuries.
•By 2020, GM, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Nissan, BMW and Renault all expect to sell vehicles that can drive themselves at least part of the time.
•By 2025, Daimler and Ford expect autonomous vehicles on the market.
•In 2035, IHS Automotive report says will be the year most self-driving vehicles will be operated completely independent from a human occupant’s control.
So in my opinion, very exciting, although we will have to wait a few years yet.
#41 2014-04-18 19:14:14
Not necessarily. It's likely to take years to address all the legal issues.
But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!
#42 2014-04-19 15:54:34
The thing is, that every country has it's own law and I definitely think that it is most likely that the Americans would have the chance to try it out, months or years before Germany and other countries get green light.
Especially in Germany, there are so many opinions of different kinds of people, that it would take years to allow something like fully automatic cars, after loads of pro-contra discussions.
But in fact, I am very optimistic that the day will come that automated cars are allowed everywhere or in most areas.
Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
#43 2014-04-19 19:20:45
It'll take years for the US government to allow such a thing and just as long to convince the country that the blind could handle it. And all that could go out the window the very first time a blind person got into an accident while riding in one of these cars. The public would automatically assume it was some fault of the blind person, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. So no, I don't see this taking off anytime soon much less in my lifetime.
But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!
#44 2014-04-20 09:45:05
Bryan,, I certainly understand the source of your doubt and skepticism here about self-driving cars, but consider this. To begin with they aren't necessarily being developed for the blind in mind accept in specific research cases. It looks as the automotive industry as a whole are going to design these self-driving cars in stages. As in they will only be able to do it while in cruise control with a licensed driver behind the wheel for the first few years. Things like that will help ease the publics acceptance of the technology, build trust in it, as in the beginning the human operator will be an insurance for the technology both legally and from a public safety point of view. It will be able to help manufacturers and developers test and correct the technology on a large scale. Meaning by the time a blind driver will be allowed to drive or ride in such a car the technology will have already passed all kinds of legal and technological hurdles which they could do within twenty years or so, because it is being done in stages not just developing a new self-driving car and handing it to a blind operator on its first day out.
Plus as we are blind we tend to think of how such technologies effect us personally. The thing is it is the sort of revolutionary technology that can help everyone so will be very marketable to a wide range of customers both disabled and not. There are people with mobility handicaps such as being crippled who are unable to drive normal cars who would benefit from this technology. There are people who are fully sighted but are unable to operate a motor vehicle because they suffer from epilepsy or some other mental disorder. There are people who have absolutely nothing wrong with them who would just like to sit the seat back and relax while the car drives him/her home after work. So considering the advantages of the technology I see it not only being developed, but taking off with the general public. However, it is only when it is well tested will we, the blind, be anywhere near it.
#45 2014-04-20 14:35:03
This would be a great picture!
You are walking home from sports, work, school or elsewhere, cars are passing by and the drivers are sleeping while the cars are driving through the streets without any problem.
@Bryanp,
You might be right. In Germany, we have a TV channel called "RTL", and these guys are actually the first ever guys who would speculate about whether it was the blind guy's fault or not.
If an automated car would be involved in an accident, would the sighted person actually have had a chance to prevent it? Not really, only if the car has a stearingwheel and the auto pilot automatically turns off when using it. But at this point, there would be massive protests about blind people driving or using automated cars, you are right.
But: No risk, no fun!
Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.
#46 2014-04-20 18:03:52
Ah yeah, the no fun part saddens me.
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#47 2014-04-20 21:08:24
Probably not even once they're available to the general public. I've observed how the world thinks of us. I have a feeling that by the time we're allowed behind the wheel,so to speak, of a self-driving car, the rest o the world will be driving vehicles like the Speeders from Star Wars. And again, if a blind personis ever in an accident in one of those vehicles it's going to automatically be the fault of the blind person and not the vehicle or, if a drunk driver was involved, said drunk driver.
But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!
#48 2014-04-21 22:45:14
Not sure if blind people can drive a car but they sure can steer one based on haptic cues
#49 2014-04-22 20:08:54
As I said, on an empty race track is one thing. On a busy ighway would be quite another matter.
But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!
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