2009-10-17 22:25:07

Well after several occurences where people for various reasons people think tables don't work with screen readers, I would like to officially say...

I love tables!!!

I really do. I can only speak for Jaws in terms of how it operates, but here is how it works for me:
Control plus alt plus arrow keys moves between cells
This method moves you up, down, left or right one cell. It also attempts to read the "title", this being the first cell in the appropriate direction. If you move sideways it tries to read the first cell at the top of that column to try and help you work out which column you're in, moving down it reads the first cell on the left of that row for a similar reason.

Windows key plus arrow keys
Works almost exactly the same, except it doesn't read the title and cell. Instead it reads the entire row or column. Can be handy in some cases.

For example if a shop uses a table for their products, and the first column is the item name you can do the following:
Position yourself in the column for price, availability or whatever you find particularly relevant at the time
Hold control and alt, then keep pressing down.

The cell data is read in a slightly different intonation, so if it was price you were looking at the price would sound slightly different. In this case you might have:

Blank DVD X 20, £5
DVD case X 5, £3
Microsoft wheelmouse, £7

Only with the price in the different tone.

I am sure Hal and Window Eyes will both support tables, and I know NVDA does too. Thunder really isn't worth caring about frankly, it doesn't even support HTML on its own so it has no chance. NVDA is better, free for commercial use, and just as free for individuals.

I can't stop everyone thinking tables are a problem, but if I can show a few people then this is good. After all how hard are tables to work with when you break them down? And considering spreadsheet support such as Excel is common in screen readers, how much different is it?

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-10-19 19:05:43

Ctrl+Alt+Arrows worked since jaws 5 with IE6 and probably before, so that's not really a new feature.
But you are right to inform people that it exists, because many don't kno, and they are disapointed when having to navigate through a table. That's why I said, when you installed new AG forum version, that I loved the table presentation.

But this feature works well only if the table is well formed... most webmasters still don't pay attention to write correct HTML

Remind : you can also use Ctrl+Alt+Arrows in MS word tables.

There are 10 kinds of people : those who know binary, and those who don't.

2009-10-19 20:14:01

I think the previous version used tables too, at least in the topic lists. I know that it isn't new, but you would be utterly amazed how many people don't know about it.

While its true a lot of bad tables are out there there are also a lot of good ones. Or at least enough that it is worth knowing about. Not enough sites use tables for actual tables in my opinion, they beggar about with all kinds of funny ways to list products and so on when a simple table would work perfectly well.

The best way to make things accessible on the web in my opinion is just to use HTML as it is intended. If something is a table then use a table, and don't put weird stuff in tables that aren't part of the table itself. If something is a heading use a heading, and don't use headings to make "large text" because that makes screen readers ramble on about headings all the time - that's what a font size tags are for. If people do this then they can't go too far wrong.

I admit people not knowing how to work their screen reader properly is a personal pet peeve of mine, similarly with Jaws users who don't know the jaws cursor even exists. It also bugs me when sites think that making something easier for the visually impaired means bigger text, and they use heading levels to do it.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-10-21 12:38:06

Tables in Hal are equally unproblematic. By default Hal will red tables as a list going across each rown, so it's only necessary to press down arrow, ---- heck, you can even just hit document read and go through the hole thing.

So you'd get, ---- in a table showing item, price and quantity:

Random example object, £700, 31. Another pointless example, £2586, 10.

Hal uses pauses and tone to indicate in the same way.

You can also hop betwene table sells with dolphin key (capslock by default), and the arrows as well, and if you wish Hal can also tell you information about what number row and column your on and how many rows or columns the table has (it does some of this by default, but you can set a lot of it). I actually use this incredibly often whenever I play the lone wolf gamebooks from Project.aon and use the combat results table.

now there's! a site who understand that html tables can be useful for screen readers, ---- sinse that's how they adapted the original printed action chart.

As to general html stuff, I'm not sure bout jaws, but Hal has huge amounts of customization options for what it does and does not tell you. I usually have it set not to alert me about headings, --- sinse it's usually fairly obvious from the text what they are. Hal has methods to jump betwene them as necessary, but for mental purposes I just think of them as breaks in text.

This is not intended to start one of those really irritating "mine's better than yours" debates, ---- but from a lot of comments I've read about jaws, and the couple of occasions I've tried it, I have noticed that by default it tends to be a lot more automated than Hal, automatically displaying things in a useable way, rather than letting the user wander around the existing display.

Hal for instance defaults to use of the virtual focus on the internet, and it's up to the user to navigate around the pages, go into form fields etc.

it does sound that by default jaws only uses tab and arrow keys like a self-voicing game with a simple menue interface. Obviously, jaws is! highly customizable, and has very sufficient methods of navigation, but sometimes I do wonder if it's presentation with alll the automated options discourages people from trying things out and making full use of it?

As I said, this isn't intended as a cryticism, only an observation, ---- and it well might be wrong.

I have afterall been using Hal for a frighteningly long time.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-10-21 15:47:11

Jaws indeed has such customisation, and I think your idea is a little off the mark more from your lack of familiarity. Jaws uses the Virtual PC cursor in the internet, essentially letting you move around as if in a word processing document. It naturally processes the page inn a different way, but I think they probably do essentially the same thing in technical terms with the internet and just output in a different layout form. The big difference is that Jaws has a separate cursor for tramming around the screen, whereas Hal uses the virtual cursor for double duty. This is how I've been able to use the colours in core exiles, by using the Jaws cursor to get the colour shown on the screen rather than asking the virtual PC cursor what the colour is. The virtual PC cursor gets its information from the HTML and tells me nothing about the colours, whereas the jaws cursor gets its info from the graphics intercept and tells me the colour... its just a bit tricky to work since it wasn't designed for this purpose.

Having the separate cursors is also handy if you have an awkward program with an HTML pane, and you either get stuck in the HTML pane or can't get into the HTML pane with tab, control tab or F6.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-10-21 16:38:24

Fair enough, I do admit I find the format changing on webpages by jaws to be a litle odd but it's as you say probably a question of familiarity.

Hal's virtual focus can be run in either auto, or none auto modes which do essentially what your describing, it's just that by default it will run automatically in html, where as with a program like the smugglers games it will default to bog standard vf, ---- which in many cases is more than up to the task.

I didn't actually realize the html formatting made a difference to what was literally detected, --- -I always assumed it only affected the way Hal handnled page layout, ---- I'll have to try using none auto vf to check the colours in Ce, --- luckily this is much easier to do in hal than it sounds in Jaws, because the vf's position is naturally as you said in the same place the auto vf is.

In fact, checking text colour and highlighting on this page I get two different answers with the foci, ---- I'll have to try Ce.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-10-21 16:55:18

Normally Jaws lets you redirect the jaws to the PC, but this doesn't work quite right with the virtual PC sadly. I'll admit this is a mild flaw, but as I said it normally isn't necessary. The Jaws cursor only shows what is on screen, so it will let you get to the menu bar and so on in IE for example where the virtual PC won't... but the virtual PC will let you move around the whole web page not just the bit that's currently displayed in the window. They're completely separate mechanisms, because they have completely separate functions. I find it odd that Hal combined them, but ah well.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.