2008-12-18 22:28:15

this is getting dangerously close to the field of my PHd research, but it's a question I thought would be interesting to have a talk about anyway.

What sort of terms do people prefer to describe general lack of eyeballness? Blind? visually impared?

I've noticed people tend to use the term "blind" only to refer to having no site and "visually impared" only to refer to having some. this makes a lot of grammatical and logical sense even if if isn't strictly officially the case (or at least it isn't in the Uk), where anyone with less than 20 20 vision, ---- whether that less is just slightly less or none at all counts as visually impared, sub catagories of which are either registered officially as partially sited or registered officially as blind, ---- though on an interesting point you actually count as registered blind if you have a less than 3 meter site range in optimal lighting conditions. This is why my brother, despite being able to read highly magnified print and indeed play graphical games is counted as registered blind.

i used to actually describe myself to people as registered blind, but found this caused too much difficulty in the "how much can you see" routine, so switched to using the term visually impared.

as for people as a hole, I'd usually use the term visually impared to as a catch all, and "totally blind" if I wanted to specifically talk about people without any site at all, ---- in matters of game access or my phd for instance.

I'm less keen on "blind people" sinse it's mildly imprecise, but I don't particularly mind it, ---- also "blind people" and even worse "the blind" tend to be use as catch all terms by people who think anyone without working optics belongs to another (and totally separate), species, ---- for instance the great person at a certain university who told me i should be doing computer science because "it's what blind people usually do"

I think the top spot for stupidist use of terminology goes to applying the adjective "blind" to objects associated with Vi access.

"Blind stick", "Blind typewriter" for brailler (very odd, as I can't remember the last time I saw a typewriter with fully functional site), "Blind chess board" , and my personal favourite just for it's utter insanity "A blind dog!"

this one always absolutely has me in fits! how is a blind dog supposed to help you get around places?

Obviously by sonar!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2008-12-21 06:08:33

dog using sonar? now that's something to be seen,
I hope I'm answering your question by saying I say I'm blind because I can only see light and since my twin brother can see a fair amount, he is visually impared

Connor

2008-12-27 20:53:02

A colleague, Brian Charlson, from Caroll Center for the Blind, suggested "People who are Blind" as a good term.

I forget the definition he used for such phrasing, but it seems a good descriptor in that it does not define a person by their sightedness; rather identifies just one of their attributes, as in "People who are French"

In any event, it's what we use at our company.

BTW. I have a close friend who has a blind dog. Does that make her a seeing-eye-person?

John Bannick
www.7128.com

2008-12-29 01:07:22

I also like the phrase "people who are blind". But as talking comes to the language I use when talking about my blindness to other people, I always use the word blind and if people start to discriminate me for this, it's their own problem, but so far I haven't encountered any hard problems. Just some misunderstandings.

Languages don't influence the way we think, but they still have a world and worth in themselves. Celebrate your mother tongue, the world is a diverse place.

2008-12-30 18:39:45

John, I have actually used the phrase, people or person who is blind to apply to myself and others, ---- usually in situations such as that of the university I mentioned.

when the disabilities adviser told me I should be studdying computer science "because that's what blind people usually do" I actually replied "I'm not blind people, I'm me, and it's my choice to study philosophy"

Unfortunately, I've come to realize that on average not only governmental services, but also people in general in the Uk tend to be less reasonable about disability in general.

I once shocked an american director, who was considderably worried that when I was engaged in a production during the first rehearsal everyone else hadn't even spoken to me. when i told her this was the normal "Whaaah! he's blind!" period any new group of people go through when i meet them.

She was pretty stunned when i told her I'd been expecting such a reaction.

Of course, this isn't to say all the english are terrible about disability, or that all americans, norweagians, Dutch (to pick threee national groups I've seen who tend to be pretty good), or whoever are better, it's just sort of a national average.

but just to illustrate, in norway if I stood at the side of the road holding my cane, ---- all the traffic stopped.

In England it's a case of find a pedestrian crossing or run like the clappers!

Oh Btw, it's probably just another Uk vs Us thing, but I've always found the "seeing eye" thing rather strange, ---- though I presume the logic is a seeing eye dog for an unseeing eye person, lol!

In england They're referred to as "guide dogs" and apparently according to a norwegian friend of mine, the translation from the Norwegian is something similar.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-01-31 14:25:14

Apologies if this is sort of thread necromancy, but here goes.

I tend to use blind for peomyself for some time, even while I had very limited sight. I started using "blind" instead of "partially sighted" when I felt I hadn't any sight of practical use. This said I tend to use the term "visually impaired" or "people with sight problems" if I have to refer to us as a group.

As to Americans, I have a theory. My theory goes that those who get out of the country other than just for tourism are more likely to be accepting in general, not just of visual impairment. Through muds I've encountered some pretty good people and some absolute idiots.

Small note, it isn't the fact that they've left their country for some purpose but their willingness to do so which I believe had this impact. Those who have a more isolationist mindset I feel are less likely to be tolerant, wanting to shut themselves up in their own small social groups and complain about how evil the rest of the world or even their own country is. I'm not saing they're bad people as such, just that certain people seem to be afraid of differences.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-02-04 01:24:00

cx2,

I think you're right that Americans who get out of the US for more than just tourism are generally more accepting.

Something about suddenly being handicapped because you don't speak the language, understand the customs, and are generally lost.

As a tourist, you can kinda isolate yourself. That's hard to do when you live there.

John Bannick

2009-02-04 07:42:41

I'm glad it didn't come across as ignorance or "American bashing" on my part, thanks for the reply. I was worried someone would take what I said badly when I posted it.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-04-29 22:33:46

In eastern Europe the traffic doesn't stop, but people here are most certainly helpful and ready to guide you across the street what ever their atitude is. The situation is almost the same in Estonia and Hungary. This could actuelly mean, that the younger generation is almost getting over of the socialist "disabled people don't exist" thing.

Languages don't influence the way we think, but they still have a world and worth in themselves. Celebrate your mother tongue, the world is a diverse place.

2009-04-30 00:15:50

I could be wrong but I think seeing-eye-dog is mre of an East coast US thing because I live in the west and almost everyone here uses the term guide dog.  I might stand corrected, though, because, that said, everyone here would also know what you mean if you said seeing-eye-dog.  Also, there is a guide dog school in New Jersey called Seeing Eye which is maybe where that term originated anyway.  As for me on the blind and VI subject, I think of blind as applying to those who are B1's who are those with no vision at all to ... I believe finger-counting is the term where you can see your hand in front of your face with your arm extended.  Anyone above that, I call low vision and I use the term visually impaired for everyone who falls below 20/60 vision, but more commonly for those that are low vision.  And, to be honest, I always use blind in reference to objects in describing objects to sighted people in order to make their description and their use more clear.

2009-04-30 22:40:42

Hmmm, with the finger counting thing, wouldn't that depend on how long your arms were? lol!

I can actually count my fingers in optimum lighting conditions with good enough contrast, ---- but I can't do more than this sinse my distance vision is pants. On the other hand, I'm quite good at colours and can play certain graphical games, ---- so would probably fall into low vision under your definition.

Interesting on the eastern europe thing there Icemaster.

A very close friend of mine is russian, and grew up just in the end of the socialist bit (some of her talks about reading school poetry about great father lenin are quite frightning!), but she never mentioned anything disability wise.

On the other hand, she's hardly representative of anyone, ----- she  does viking reinactment and clobbers people with swords in her spare time, and is probably the most characteristically male friend I have, so i can't draw any national averages or attempt generalizations, ----- though that's never a good thing anyway, afterall, all generalizations are false, ;D.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-05-03 13:26:24

Isn't the statement that all generalisations are false a generalisation in itself? tongue

Sorry couldn't resist.

Have to admit I always found the term "seeing eye dog" sounded quite clunky and silly myself, but that's just me.

I still find I often use the term blind as short hand for visually impaired when talking to sighted people, since they don't tend to care whether the person has no sight or little sight. Those close to me often know enough to realise that many people still have some useful sight anyway, even though I don't any more, and so take it in their stride.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-05-05 00:47:52

yes, all generalizations are bad. this is a rule of good writing from the same fine school that advises to avoid cliches like the plague, sinse they're old hat, and to not never use no double negatives, ----- lol!

I find the "blind" adgective when applied to objects rather irritating, and I must admit I don't like the thinking behind it, ---- that "blind" is some transferable property with it's own unique relation to everyday objects, and it's deffinition of a distinct group who are something of a different species, ---- ie, "the blind" who require "blind" things.

As I said, I'd rather accurately use the term of a person with no vision, and Vi of someone with low or partial vision.

I admit though, apart from my dislike of sterriotypical language and atitudes, I also find it more useful when talking to people about me, sinse otherwise I'm guaranteed to have some strange explanations to do when it comes to me using my sight for something or talking about colours.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-05-05 07:19:37

Well VI can correctly be applied to people with no vision as well in my opinion.

I don't actually understand the term blind being used as an adjective, I've never heard it used as such myself. I've never heard anyone say "that's a blind computer" or anything like that. I understand your thinking on that angle.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-05-05 09:46:03

Agreed, however in general perception visually impared can imply more than totally blind, where as "blind" always seems to imply explicitely having no useful vision at all.

For the adjective thing, as I said, it's something I've disturbingly seen fairly often. In fact just the other day I saw one of those google adverts popping up on this site saying "blind signs" for a company who manufactured braille signs.

Odd indeed, sinse signs with working eyeballs sound like something you'd see on a bad acid trip.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-05-06 00:54:13

Signs with working eeyballs, sounds lieka  particular Doctor Who episode. Thern again I'm drifting off topic laugh.s

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-05-21 06:53:50

Heh, "blind" items. Depending on who you ask, I either "have a blind computer" or get "do you have a blind computer?". I guess no matter how you look at that though, I bought it off the shelf, so would that mean if I didn't install screen readers on it, it would be a "seeing" computer? Also, it can't be blind, the camera on it still works. tongue I get a little peeved when people constantly ask (especially when it's the same people) "Is that a blind (insert item here)?" Do you NOT see the freaking Apple/iPod logo on my player? Do you not see "Macintosh" printed below my laptop's screen? Is my gf not on the same exact damn computer I am right now? The last one is more for people that ask me in person. (that one gets me, her working on her Mac, me on mine, they look at us and ask her "Is his a blind computer?") I don't mind though, when I get asked "Is such and such a special item for the blind?" or "That is a normal such and such, did you have to (install/add) something special for the blind so you could use it?"

I don't like it how for "the blind" when you hear the term, it usually means one of two things, but almost never any in-hbetween. As far as society goes, it's almost always (whether using VI or blind) totally blind. The other extreme is that that VI or blind still ALL have usable sight. I went in to talk to a counselor for classes at a local community college here, explained that I am totally blind, and got "Well, what we can do for you is use CCTVs,and get you copies of books with large print. Seriously? Doesn't "I'm total and can't see anything out of either eye" mean anything? (and they are in our education system? scary isn't it)

(One last thing, sorta off topic, but still... I ABSOLUTELY hate it when people ask my girlfriend or whoever else I am with questions instead of me. "Does he want something to drink?" "Is he eating?" And.... I'm done derailing.

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-05-22 07:05:40

I guess I've always used blind and visually impaired interchangeably. I tend to use visually impaired when I want to be more general. Like Dark said, a catch-all.

I've only heard blind used as an adjective a few times, and each time I've been confused and had to ask the person for clarification about what they meant. I also heard a news report once about how they were putting braille on drive-through ATM's. Maybe I didn't hear it right, and if I did, well...

Has anyone ever had friends ask them if they were offended by phrases like "see you later" or anything that implied something to do with vision? I take it as phrases that have evolved in a world that is dominated by sight and I use those phrases as often as I hear them. It takes me by surprise when people ask me questions like that.

To clarify the "seeing eye dog" phrase, scrawny42 had it right. There's a school in New Jersey called The Seeing Eye, and dogs from that school can be referred to as Seeing Eye dogs. I suppose over the years, people started using it to refer to all guide dogs. If you want to get technical about it, only dogs from Seeing Eye are supposed to be called seeing eye dogs since it's a trademark name. Anyway, I think the term guide dog is more explanatory, and it's what I use when I talk to people about it. And if they want to ask where I got my dog from, then I'll give them the name.

2009-05-22 08:11:09

Wow Jabber, i never knew that "seeing eye" was another case of hoover/vacuume cleaner syndrome, I always just assumed it was another difference betwene Uk and Us English.

for the sight based language thing, I don't particularly mind if people ask, but I do find it slightly irritating when people assume and use specific vocal work arounds, ---- asking if I listened to a film instead of watched it, or where I was meeting someone instead of seeing them.

while I know this is a rather mistaken attempt to be careful about what (for some reason), they assume is a sensative subject, I must admit I'm rather bad at being patient in those sorts of situations.

Ravager, I never mind actually explaining how I do something, ---- though some of the questions I've had sometimes have been slightly odd, "how do you know where the numbers on a phone are?"

That's one I genuinely can't answer at all, ---- afterall why do all phones have dots on the five anyway.

I do love the one about "my computer isn't blind, the camera works" I'll have to remember that, ----- accept my pc of course doesn't have a camera, ---- so it is blind, ;d.

I've been known to give very sharp answers when people have done that, ---- eg chipping in myself sarcastically with "yes he! does, and perhaps you should talk to him! about that"

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-05-22 23:21:09

Actually, I do tend to butt into conversations when I hear the "does he" start up. Usually, a person gets three strikes, just like baseball. I try to correct  a person three times nicely before I become loud, obnoxious, and very very very mean towards the person that I tried correcting. I have gotten several people in trouble and even one fired in that manner. The one that got fired was very stupid to begin with, and she was a (probably corrected on a dozen different occasions) the hostess at a resturaunt that my cousin and a friend worked at, so I frequented regularly.
I do get offended when people do skate "sighted" subjects. Just like you said, the "Did you go to listen to that movie" and "Did you hear the hockey game" are just examples. I try telling people over and over and over (and over and over and over, get the point?) to not do that. Just ask "Did you see such and such movie" or whatever. Another one I got a while ago while hanging out with some friends was "We can watch tv. Oh, you can't do that. Ummm, we can listen to the tv. Oh, that probably won't be fun for you. Well, ummm, we can listen to the radio." How about you let me decide if I want to watch tv or not?

As for explaining things to people, adn how I do things, I son't mind that one at all. As long as it isn't because of the person's total stupidity/them being an idiot. When it comes to talking to people that have honest, "normal" questions, I actually like to inform people, just so they can understand a little bit better.

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-05-23 11:27:42

I'm probably less patient than you with that, ---- then again I suppose it comes up slightly less for me, as I live on my own, so quite a lot of the time there is! only me to speak to.

For me, the "listen to tv" thing is actually inaccurate anyway, sinse I do have enough vision to find physically watching films, tv programs etc helpful, ---- something else I have trouble explaining to people.

the other day, when trying to configure an internet enabled phone, the tech support people utterly failed to understand that I could see which lights on the hub box were working and what colour they were, ---- but not read lables or the display on the phone.

After being asked about 6 times if someone was with me, I finally got rather hacked off, asked to speak to someone with a abrain and got put through to their manager, ---- who did eventually sort things out though it was an up hill struggle.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-05-23 20:32:03

We've all had to be sharp I think when it comes to asking the person with you instead of you.

Knew an older person who was visually impaired, and had been asked by a local school to go give a talk about being visually impaired. Apparently one question a kid asked was "how do you go to the toilet?"

Good grief.

As to hearing sport, well some people still listen to that on the radio I gather. Especially if they are out a lot of the time in a vehicle.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-05-24 02:39:34

Not the toilet one... Why is it sooooooo freaking hard for people with sight to understand that those that are visually impaired, and those that are totally blind actually know how to do things like that? When I first lost my sight, I must have been asked something about using the restroom at least a half dozen different times. *smack forehead* Gee, can you tell that the people I run into/interact with on a daily basis aren't the brightest? (but then again, I guess I do need someone to make me feel a little more intellegent about myself, so that would explain...)

As for being more patient than you, I find that I am starting to run out of patience. Stupidity is growing at an outrageous rate and there seems to be nothing I can do to stop it. I constantly hear comments while out under peoples' breaths and all that fun stuff. Oh well, what can one do.

Another thing I like (yeah, ummm, not really) is the fact that because I am blind (or VI, you pick tongue), I know how to do nothing. I can't use tools anymore, have to have my gf email people for me, need my food cut, and a ton of other things. Really, since when did losing your sight, even if it is ALL of your sight, the same as removing your brain functionality? Has anyone gotten  someone coming up to you, and the "Oh, you're blind? Do you happen to know so and so? Well he lives (insert place somewhere, anywhere really that ISN'T near you)." Apparently the whole blind and visually impaired community ALL across the world MUST know eachother, right?

I wonder if we should start a new thread since this one is starting to get a little derailed (and I apologize for that) and call it something like "Stupid answers  to stupid questions. Use that to show the... well... I don't even know how to phrase it, but the absolute stupidity of questions and comments that the VI world gets. I guess on the other note, I could also give examples of really really stupid blind people (who are also the "whoe is me, I'm blind" ones) that give society the ammo to ask "us" the stupid questions and give the VI world a bad name.

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-05-24 04:56:11

Heck, one time I was out and I swear someone said hello to me using the name "Ben". I am not called Ben, but I heard of a blind guy in the same town called Ben. The silly cow just saw the stick and assumed it was the one VI guy they knew of. Did they really not look beyond the stick?

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-05-24 07:35:23

I'm afraid if I have one prejudice it's probably against blind people, sinse during a very nasty experience when I was 8-10, I met a hole bunch of people who would only associate with other blind people, and went through the hole "I can't do x because I'm blind" thing.

It's probably coming from a family with three generations of site problems (even though dure to physical damage I have the least amount of sight), but I've always subscribed to the rule that most anything can be done if you work out a way of doing it, ---- though it might take a bit more effort.

For the hole "how do you do such and such" thing, in my more patient moments, I've adopted a scheme of asking people precisely why they think something would be difficult.

If for instance, when getting assistance at a station I don't know my way around someone asks me if I'm alright using stairs, I've taken to asking them, ---- once you know where the top or bottom of the stairs are, exactly how much do you need to see to find the rest?

I've used a similar vane for the hole toilet business as welll.

Generally I've found that while there are some people who are profoundly stupid, if you try and persuade people to just think, at least some will.

I remember one occasion on a train for example, when an a child sitting opposite me (perhaps 8 or 9), asked her mother "Wy is he touching that book?"

The mother's reply was a very aggrieved and offended "shhhh!  he's blind!"

I wasn't having that, so I actually butted in and started explaining about braille to said child. funnily enough, the child was more accepting and okay about things than the mother who was incredibly nervous, ---- though I'm not sure how much of that was about my sight, and how much was the social prejudice about admittedly a not very small man talking to a litle girl (another instance of mass social insanity).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)