2018-10-03 06:40:01

Hello.
I believe this maybe a controversial topic, so I decided to ask you guys for your thoughts on it.  I was talking to a group of people about a month ago, and they seemed upset about Manamon because of it being a direct rip off of Pokimon. They also wanted to report the game for breaking copyright rules, and selling the game like this. Personally, while I generally do hold things against games for stealing concepts from other games, in this particular case I feel that I need to give Manamon a pass. While yes, this is a violation of copyright laws and Aaron could potentially get arrested for this at the very worse if Nintendo even found out about the existence of this game, this is a concept we do not have in audio games. Unless Nintendo starts making games for the blind/VI community, we never will have games like this. I also find it ridiculous that a gaming company can hold copyright over a concept to begin with because inevitably, even if it happens a hundred or a thousand years from now, we will run out of ideas and will have to pay outrageous fees to make more games. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think of this.

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2018-10-03 11:06:15 (edited by magurp244 2018-10-03 11:12:22)

Copyright encompasses a products implementation, character design, names, code, writing, level design, art, audio, UI, marketting, etc. It does not apply to the concept or gameplay. Developers study and incorporate gameplay mechanics and concepts all the time, its how the industry evolves. The original Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was essentially a clone of Dune 2 in many respects, but didn't incorporate any of its assets, setting, or writing. Or for a more recent example, PubG vs Fortnite.

Usually things start to be a problem if people copy the game progression, level design, assets or asset design, or other aspects in combination with little deviation that it starts entering clone territory, but even then it depends. Manamon is certainly very similar, but does not use any assets or audio from pokemon, not to mention an entirely different interface to accommodate accessibility.

You may find these articles on the subject interesting:

[Clone Wars: The Five Most Important Cases Every Game Developer Should Know]
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2018-10-03 13:19:53

In general, once you do not directly copy someone's text, video, sound, or images without permission / license then you are safe. You also should not try to fool users into thinking a product is a brand name when it is not. Once those are adhered to you should be safe but anyone can still file a suit which can go to court if they feel their rights are being infringed.

2018-10-03 14:29:26

Someone once asked Nintendo about permission to create an accessible version of Pokemon. The rep said something to the effect of "we say no by default, even if you technically could, just to minimize litigation. So "No."" Basically, I think Nintendo would prefer to not hear about line-toers that don't directly impact them, because then they'd have to call their lawyers and at the very least it'd cost them time and money that just ignoring it would not.

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2018-10-03 14:49:03

Don't know exactly what does Pokemon copyright contain, but if it is what post 2 said which is what I thought too, then Aaron, or any other developer creating a similar game can't really have problems. He has different creature names, different moves, story, and so on. Honestly, lots of people say this copyright stuff only because they don't want to pay for the game. Crazy party copies literally Pokemon move names, music from it and nobody says anything, cause it's a free game. People in our community don't like paying for games. A sad reality. Regarding the original topic, copying a concept is fine if you either have something to add onto it, or you are making something which cannot already be played by a blind person. Your game still has to be different in some way, and as long as it's like that it's not a clone. Manamon is in no way a pokemon clone, and whoever says that has to check the dictionary.

2018-10-03 16:28:16

I agree with what has been said here, and I've personally found all of the accusations of Manamon as a copy of pokemon to be deeply unfair.
Was Manamon enspired by Pokemon's world, moves and battle style? Of course it was, but hell so was digimon.

Yet Manamon has very much its own story, its own world and characters, and its own set of creatures.

There are several issues with the game, hell what game doesn't have issues.
I personally really wish both that the trading system was far less clunky and reliant on all that port opening nonsense, and that the game had party experience rather than single creature experience so that the grind factor was evened out a little more, since I confess that has always been my issue with manamon and why I've never got too far through the game. That being said though, its still a great achievement and easily one of the best audio rpgs we've ever had.

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2018-10-03 17:54:04

Manamon is safe because while the concepts and mechanics are more or less ripped straight from Pokemon, the setting and world are completely different, thus there are no problems. I agree with what else has been said here, though I still think Manamon is essentially a Pokemon ripoff... good or bad, that's up to the individual player. Being inspired by pokemon is one thing, but this is effectively an accessible version of Pokemon with a different coat of paint. And copying game concepts, as was said in post 2, is how gaming evolves... but copying and pasting is not the same as taking an original concept found in other games and changing it enough to make the two separate things.

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2018-10-03 18:13:43

I don't think there is a legal issue here, but I felt like Manamon was a slap in the face to Pokemon. I didn't like it at all for that reason, though no doubt it is a fun game. In my mind though, it is a pokemon rip off.

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2018-10-03 18:48:30

The thing with crazy party is it's really honest about what it is, It's a fan's re imagining of mario party and pokemon battling. It goes out of it's way to tell you this, in the games description and in the game's assets.  Manamon on the other hand, the description of this game looks like it has been wripped off of a wiki, had words like pokemon, trainer and gym removed and alternatives put in place. In the end, it just looks like a bastardised version of pokemon with no graphics. If I want to play pokemon I can emulate any one of the fantastic pokemon games out there, have graphics and even fan made patches to address balance issues.

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2018-10-03 19:29:58 (edited by Dan Gero 2018-10-03 19:31:41)

Personally I like it because it's a rip off of Pokemon and that it's made to be accessible. Seriously, what Pokemon game, (besides Pokemon Chrystal), are we as blind people able to not only play, but play it well? If anyone can tell me about an accessible game, I'll take back what I said about liking Manamon in a heart beat.

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2018-10-03 19:36:33

O CP is one of my favorite games, and that wasn't meant as an offense, just an example. Remember that not everybody is willing to play mainstream games, not because they do not want, but because they are usually harder to set up and you usually end up reading lots of guides to get going somewhere. This does highly depend on the game though. If you feel Manamon is not for you, you have demo to try it and say oh I played Pokemon already I don't feel like I need this.

2018-10-03 20:03:10

Noone is saying you shouldn't like it. But that wasn't the nature of your question.. if you like it because it's a ripof, all power to you. But most of us who call it a ripoff see it as just that. I personally would've liked to see a world and setting and world that was more far removed... which could be easily done. The same concepts as pokemon could be taken and used to create a game that was more distant. And manamon... where does that word even come from? It's so close to pokemon that anyone who hears it and knows anything about comparitive similarities couldn't mistaken it for anything else other than what it is.

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2018-10-03 20:08:15

Yeah the name is a bit weird.

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2018-10-03 20:35:12 (edited by kianoosh 2018-10-03 20:37:24)

I'm just gonna talk about copying consepts here not about manamon. We had a lot of mainstream games that have copied the consepts of other games and gamers in mainstream comunity are playing them all and enjoying them. Take just cause and G T A, some call of duty modes and counter strike, Mortal combat and tuff dark fighter and skull girls and a bunch of others as a lot of examples. I personally have no problem with doing that. Maybe one day someone comes in and develops a game that you have to cross jungles and live in there, Make things yourself, etc etc and that won't be a copy of stw. "Some people like to say clone". If it would, Just cause and mafia both were two copies of G T A, tuff dark fighter, skull girls and a tun of other similler games were all a copy of mortal combat, Every fps game that might have death match mode and similler modes to call of duty or counter strike would be a copy of them. The fact is that the developer of those games, All have coded their games from the scratch, All got inspirations from their today most played games and added the consepts to their own games, Plus a bunch of new features, missions, game plays that might make their game something special amongst the games that they used to get inspirations from. Unfortunately we are more than enough censetive about an audio game which is similler to another famous audio game. Fr example not all fps(s) are redspot copies, Not all multiplayer gamerooms that have card games are quentinc's gameroom and rs games copies. Speaking of qc gameroom and rs games, These are similler to each other, with the exception of both having different features that those features aren't exist in the other one. They even include some games that are the same as each other like ninety nine, 1000 miles, etc. So that shows us that people got too censetive in recently, since ultrapower copies came out. I don't think i've ever seen anything about the word "clone" in a game's topic back that time. Those people that are like that should change themselves about those games that aren't really a copy of another game and probably just got some consepts of that other game included in them.
Sorry for my tuns of gramar errors and my weirdish spelling. Thanks for reading

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2018-10-03 22:10:34

Again, RS and QC have not just feature differences. Look at the ninety nine game on RS, and then the one on QC, and you will see they are 2 completely different rules. Miles are not such a major difference, but they still have different options. They mostly target different audiences and have different tipes of games. Other than that though, I agree with your post.

2018-10-04 02:23:41

Well, Square Enix and other console game developers don't seem to be interested in blind accessibility. By default video games are... visual and I have no idea when they'll want to make there work unnecessarily harder.
I feel like the older games would be easier to copy in an accessible format and aren't reducing or affecting their sales. I believe that anything more then 3 system generations old should be okay to duplicate until the time comes when games can be played by all and the blind won't have to wait for an out dated game and the technology to play it.
But really, I doubt that all games could ever be made playable by both the sighted and not.
Anyway, if someone puts in the hard work to make a very similar game they should be compensated and appreciated for making something accessible. And, on that note, I'm waiting for Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior III to be accessible.

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2018-10-04 02:48:35

well, I'm going to put my thoughts here. if a company can't be bothered making their games accessible then people that do care about that sorta thing should be able to use those game ideas. It would be different if pokemon was accessible, but, it isn't. nor is call of duty zombies mode, and undead assault was based on that. so I'm gonna say that I would only let people make this sort of stuff without permission if there were no games accessible of the type, which in most cases is true. look here, psycho strike, GTA, undead assault, call of duty, manamon, pokemon; no accessible games of that type, all fine. and there are so many out there already it would just be a complete waste of time trying to fine and sue and whatever else, all of those game devs. so pretty much, I say these sorts of games, are good, I have absolutely nothing against them that's all for now. if you agree give this post a thumbs up.

2018-10-04 09:16:08

Wait, so if I'm making accessible Gothic from scratch, I am breaking the law? Yes, I use Gothic's assets, level design, dubbing and music. The thing is, the original game is not even in 1% accessible, so...

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2018-10-04 10:10:53 (edited by magurp244 2018-10-04 10:13:42)

Maybe? If your using original assets then yes, it would be infringing. But, article 4 of the [Marrakesh Treaty] provides a copyright exception for non-profit accessible works for the visually impaired, but does that extend to games? I'm not sure, the berne conventions article 2 on [artistic works] could be interpreted to include that definition. If there is no exception for software the same way there is for movies and books, I would think there could be a case made in a court of law, but these are things to discuss with a lawyer.

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2018-10-04 11:16:59

my thoughts are staying the same for this particular discussion. I say if the original game is not accessible, then we should be allowed to make something like it that is.

2018-10-04 12:43:34

Please, Do not compare psycho strike to G T A just because the word "gang" is used in it and you fight polices. I never have seen an audio game similler to G T A. But yeah. Undead assault and call of duty zombie mode are a really good instance.
In my opinion copying inaccessible game consepts isn't a problem at all. I like weird old games and never have seen an audio game similler to any of them, one being I G I 2 I don't know if you have ever heard its name because it's for 2000 or 2002. It is still a cool one but unfortunately we really can't play that because it's all about shooting and hiding around. Or plants VS zombies. Yes that chinese thing was there before but first, I don't have it anymore, Second it was chinese and playing it was so painful lol.

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2018-10-04 13:10:25

Unfortunately, while I fully well agree on an ethical standpoint that yes, since the big companies aren't providing accessible games there should be no restriction on creating accessible versions, sadly there have been a number of cases in the past where  has resulted in legal stupidities.

tom Ward contacted Lucas arts about creating a starwars game, and was told that he'd have to pay several tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege of using even starwars characters, names and music in a commercial work, let alone trying to directly create audio versions of any existing starwars games.

Then, people  remember how poor tom was set to release his audio remake of the atari 2600 game, montizuma's revenge, under the name of montizuma's return. He completed about six levels of the game and was even selling commercial copies, when he received a lovely cease and dicist letter from a game studio who were producing a game with the same name. nevermind that their game was not the least accessible.

I suspect in this instance Tom certainly could have made a case and the existing cease and dicist letter was more a scare tactic than a serious threat, probably from someone at the company who googled and wasn't even aware Tom's game was an audiogame, but sadly the net result was Montizuma's return got taken down.

Yet, all this being said, fo course Phil Vlasac hasn't had any hassle over Sarah and the castle of witchcraft and wizardry, though since that only uses the harry potter names, characters and world and doesn't actually reuse sounds or gameplay ideas from any existing harry potter game, its quite possible that it went under the radar.

ditto with packman talks, though since there have been so many packman games over the years what the current status of packman is I don't know.

Freeware remakes of games used to be fair game, indeed their used to be a site called Retroremakes" which was exactly that, though with the increasing power of the mega coorporations that is getting more difficult, Nintendo recently in 2016 suppressed the release of a really good freeware Metroid ii remake, just in case it might be better than their own.

So, at the moment its probably better to steer clear of using actual game characters in audio remakes, though of course if someone wanted to make an audio side scroller about the fabulous fettuccine brothers who must jump their way through the fungus kingdom, stomping on the heads of toad soldiers and boopers in order to defeat the evil toad known as king Scouser and rescue lady lichen, I don't think there would be an issue big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-10-04 17:05:37

As has been said, comparing Psycho Strike and GTA is like calling apples and pears the same just because theyboth have skin, flesh and a core... even Undead Assault, which is closer, is still not equatable to COD. And I fully agree that we should be able to make games with similar concepts. But making a game inspired by street fighter, just as an example, with a completelydifferent world, characters, music and sounds and with something to make gameplay unique, is a far cry from making a direct ripoff of a mainstream game. As I have said before, getting inspiration for a concept is different from slapping a fresh coat of paint on the same base and calling it a different game. The former is great... the lattor, not so much. For a great example, look at Killer Instinct and Street Fighter. Killer instinct was obviously inspired by Street Fighter, you can see that with the 2d gameplay and the 6 attack buttons. But from there, all similarity ends... and calling the two the same will get you laughed at.

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2018-10-04 17:24:09

No, not using original assets you should not be able to just come along and make a copy using the same graphics, sounds, menus, etc. Manamon does not do that though, but I do think they take the idea a bit far. It's one thing to take inspiration from something you love, but they really tried to copy the entire concept. Which I guess isn't a problem, at the time when it came out though, I felt like it was a slap in the face to pokemon.

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2018-10-04 17:41:03

Direct ripoff?  From what I'm able to tell, copywrighting game systems or formats is actually really hard to pull off, as well as the concept of using commonly used resources (That guy who tried to claim that he owned the concept of using gold as currency in games as one example).  Mainly, these companies care more about people copying their intellectual property in regards to characters, world, lore and etc.  For the original post, Manamon mainly copies their battle format and gameplay to an extent.  However, we have other monster catching and breeding games in the mainstream market that one can argue were taken straight from Pokemon (Hell, we had a Final Fantasy game ina  retro style have a focus on monster capturing...twice). 


     As long as the game systems are not a direct line to line ripoff of the original source, nor are characters and settings taken from the original source, theirs not much a company can argue without crossing a line that would heavily restrict artistic expression (imagine Activision owning the concept of a first person shooter).  In manamon's case, their battle system works on a speed turn delay more akin to rpg party battle systems (with actions being done by the fastest creature/person before the next one in the line can react with their own options menu popping up) , and the attacks are their own thing to an extent, with a few holdovers (honeblades being an obvious sword dance rip off).  Let's also not forget the creatures are completely different and not stepping on Nintendo's property of their own creatures.  Though the capturing system might be too close to Pokemon, other games have used the weakening/capture mechanic before (including the part of throwing or in casing the creature in a small pocket-sized object).


     The problem more comes when the name or other related properties are directly used.  Such as with the recent take down of Pokemon Essentials;  a tool people were using to create fangames for Pokemon that had many of the systems and tile designs coded in for people to use.  Remember that the games made through this tool were free, and Nintendo still sought to shut this down.  In fact, Nintendo really has a bad track record of just utilizing a free publicity from videos, fangames and other media giving free advertisement to their products. It's a shame too, most of these fangames were interesting because they actually had difficult battles and puzzles to overcome that made you feel awesome when you eventually pushed through.  Now the fear is that Nintendo will go after the more popular fangames as few new ones will be coming up as easily.



    Anyway, this game is more categorized as a ripoff than a clone.  Ripoffs are everywhere in the mainstream market, and usually tend to copy the systems and gameplay rather than the characters and stories.  One example brought up were all the obvious ripoffs of Call of Duty when FPS games got a revival.  The same thing occurred when everything was copying Gears of War's third person cover shooter.  And like all ripoffs in the market, the best thing to do when you do not like a game is to not buy it and let it die quietly.  I'm sure not as many people are playing the game anymore, so there's no point to beat a dead horse here.

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