I don't understand the reason for this debate. Musical Professor showed by his words and actions that he needed dealing with using mor than just a warning and the audiogames.net staff dealt with him. End of story.
I must clear up some confusion it seems. First of all I am not debating the ban of musical professor, I think his manners were childish and appalling. My primary reaction was the term misogyny being thrown around, but I need more time to properly think over and address Nocturnus's last post.
Dark, I never asked for privilages nor said anyone should have them based on passed conduct, whether said conduct was good or bad. I simply believe that people can change, which you yourself has stated. I am of the attitude though that musical professor won't be coming back to the forum if he has to crawl and beg for it. Apology is not everyone's strong point. I simply wish we could put a temporary lid on the nusence, but that's my philosophy for most cases barring extremely rare exceptions. A forced lock to prevent an abusive person from getting in until he or she has calmed down to look at it rationally, or til people have forgotten it.
Anyway my alcohol has arrived, 12 frekin' bottles of poison on my shelf, so you won't be hearing from me for a while
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This post will specifically be responding to Nocturnus, post 49.
According to Merriam-Webster: Misogyny refers specifically to a hatred of women. The word is formed from the Greek roots misein (“to hate”) and gynē (“woman”).
I'm with you on that term so far. Now let's have a little fun with the second definition.
According to wikipedia: Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification.
This ... is quite disgusting in my opinion. It is exactly like using racism without any regard for what it actually means. Consider the following hypothetical cenario, which, according to your Wikipedia would be misogynistic.
A woman is in a bar.
A drunk man comes up to her and makes a joke:
What's my name? Do you want to know my name? It's hugh mungus. My name is Hugh Mungus.
The woman starts screaming and going out of control, acting like a little child. The previous case is well known and is up for debate, but it was the first that came to mind. But we're not yet done here. The women is acting like a little spoiled child, so the man (the internet in this case as the story went) decides to belittle her.
And according to you that's misogyny, a heavily loaded word in a negative light. We both agree that misogyny is hatred and prejudice against women, but how can belittling a person that acts like a child be misogyny. After all, the belittling came as a result of her actions, and not his prejudice or hatred for women. Had she not been a a woman, the lable wouldn't be slapped on the perp, just that he was belittling a brat.
I could give you a hundred more examples, some real, some fictional that could be real, that could be construed as misogyny only because the victim was a female.
If we use the last two definitions as a point of reference, I contend the following statement, straight from the email, falls under the umbrella of sexual discrimination and sexual objectification and does not make any attempt to hide the implication as such and, more importantly, is phrased rather hatefully.
"Seriously, get the fuck off my dick for crying out
loud and go fuck someone else who is actually causing some bullshit on the sight instead of making somehting out of nothing."
How is this hatred towards women? Or prejudice? Maybe I'm not seeing what the rest of progressive society is, so help me.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; if you don't intend for people to infer something by your writing style, consider editing and or don't write
I'll grant you the fact that you felt it was misogyny given the context on the forum post, but you specifically said that the emails were misogynistic in nature which I disagree with as explained already. You can not read this guy's mind so it'd be unfair to say stuff about him you don't know to be true.
A general comment follows:
For me, reading or hearing the word misogyny makes me flinch because I have very conservative opinions regarding those matters. That being said I do not have any hate or prejudice against women and judge everyone on an equal bases with the exception for actual, and factual differences between the two sexes. But I hear lables being flung at me and my political group so often that it's sad, and it's even more sad to see it on a forum where everyone is supposed to be just a screen name and their thoughts. Given other events that have happened on the forum in the passed which I shall not bring up unless I'm asked to. I feel that the crying about sexism is unjust as it bares nothing substancial, as I have pointed out with this response.
I'm sure I've missed something here, but I always have. Do correct me.
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so, according to you, the man above should be allowed to make the joke at a woman because he's a man and she's a woman? I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. had he made that joke at a man, he'd probably be getting his teeth fed to him! Wrecktally! the implication in this case is obvious; he's saying he has a huge penis and the woman should, by default, be interested.
There are many old tales, intended to warn against dealing with the devil, that demonstrate wishes or requests being granted but twisted in undesirable ways. A child in such a story could wish to be the fastest runner in his gym class, with any number of outcomes. He may be unaffected but all of his classmates become horribly crippled. He may still lose every race because he was granted the ability to just speak faster than any of them. Maybe he can run and win, but he is never able to stop running until he dies. The idea is sometimes referred to as the "Jackass Genie", and by fluctuating between taking every wish as perfectly literal or substituting in figurative meanings, it becomes nearly impossible to actually get what you truly wanted with your wish.
There are many people in this world who turn into a version of the "Jackass Genie" when minority groups are involved. I can think of plenty of people who have race on the brain. To them, the whole world is against their particular race, and they will go to great lengths to twist anything said into being about race. Choose white rice over fried rice at dinner? They'll be offended because in their mind you've just made some sort of jab at them. If you watch one TV show over another, they will believe it is because the show has a different number of actors from a particular ethnic background. If you try to explain that the ethnic background of the actors has nothing to do with what shows you watch, the "Jackass Genie" is still in effect, and will twist that to further pull you down the same path. "So you admit then that you don't care about people from race such-and-such!" You cannot win, ever.
In more recent years gender issues seem to have risen up to the same intensity as racial ones. I've tried to have conversations with women who turn literally everything into attacks on feminism. No matter how careful you are, everything said is going to be twisted using leaps that are so convoluted and extreme that no sane person is going to follow. People eventually get shoved into so deep a hole that they simply give up and walk away from the conversation, feeling frustrated and ashamed at the state of society, while the "Jackass Genie" leaves feeling further justified in their cause... since they just exposed another anti-feminist.
Lundin, you are in a situation where you just aren't going to be able to win. I think you can see that anything you're saying keeps being put through the same filter, and will continue to push you down the same path. You have to fight the urge to fix the situation/misunderstanding because this is a trap, and you're already in it. Like the example above, the only answer is to walk away and feel frustrated.
From the very start of this I've been trying to keep myself out of the trap, but I felt compelled to jump in long enough to help you get out. No one ever, EVER, realizes that they are playing the role of a "Jackass Genie", and being accused of it tends to upset people. In real life conversations it results in the Genie then trying to Show me how they are being perfectly reasonable with how they've interpreted everything said, because they are not capable of seeing how insane their leaps are. "But Jeremy, my co-worker said said he'd see me tomorrow! That means he is watching me at work which means he doesn't believe I can do my job properly because I am a woman, and it also means he expects me to be there because obviously I can't afford to take a day off, which is because women get paid less than men! How could anyone disagree that he made a blatantly sexist statement against me as a woman?!" So I walk away and get thrown into the anti-feminist camp along with the poor sap I was stepping in to save. Clearly if I walk away or try to stay out of it, then I've sided against the Genie and therefore are also against their cause.
Please try out my games and programs:
Actually, if that comment cited is taken purely on its own, it is nothing more or less than an explicit reference to genitalia. It could just as easily have been levelled at a man. It's inappropriate no matter who it was aimed at, but it does not constitute misogyny in my book.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
it comes down to the same thing though, a matter of subjectivity where you have to find some central reference point by which you can be objective. You're going to end up stepping on someone's toes by doing anything that is anything in this crazy world!
Thanks Aprone for that wonderful post. Came right after Nocturnus's out right ... yeah he should justify that or at least try to address my actual point, but that'd be inconvenient I assume. As a matter of fact I believe the biggest racists and sexists there is, yet again barring exceptions of extreme cases, are the people who fight for it with their entire soul, because they only see race or gender (/ sex). I, and other normal people don't really do that, so how can we be racist if we don't think in terms of race?
Anyway as you said this is a battle that can not be won, experiences in other places should've made me aware of this, but I guess I fall for it each time. I should've known the outcome given the things I reacted to. I'll be stepping away from here until something substancial has come about.
@Nocturnus mate, we disagree about a lot of things, but I have always respected you and thought you an intelligent and well-spoken guy. After post 54 I am sorry to say I've lost that respect entirely. Go back, review my post again and if you feel the need to, please respond with something that's actually intelligent and addresses what I said. If you need clarification of some things in my post, please ask and I shall do my best.
Feed my ego with those thumbs up!
Basically, my point is that people probably wouldn't be trying to call it misandry if it was aimed at a man. You'd call it a crude reference to genitalia and an attack that shouldn't be made. To me, that's more than enough.
The issue here - which admittedly has been blown a bit out of shape by the back-and-forth - is that while this comment -was spoken to a woman, it could just as easily have been spoken to a man. It is offensive no matter its target. What if MusicalProfessor is gay? What if he's ignorant of Nightshade's gender or of the definition of misogyny in the first place? These things might change his intent, which then means one has to consider whether or not the comment actually represents misogyny as it is defined. I maintain that it probably doesn't, but that, as has been stated before, he's definitely crossed a line, and not just by a little either. An indefinite ban - one contingent upon change on MusicalProfessor's end - sounds much better than a permanent ban, which by its definition is not up for change.
Sorry for shaking everything up by sticking my nose into this. This has gotten bigger than I think it needed to be.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
If it is so then it is so, but I didn't intend on making a name for myself out here that aimed to be respected by everyone. Idealy that would be wonderful, but I'm aware of the world I live in, a world that will address me as anything less than normal, sane and inteligent if I'm not seen as normal, sane or inteligent by someone else.
With Aprone on this one to the letter, hence me staying out of this. He articulated my feelings about these types of issues better than i ever could, thanks man, well said.
Aprone, well said, my sentiments exactly. Thumbs up to you.