2018-01-02 09:18:50

Hello...
I was going through voice albums as I like to call them, (basically just recordings), and I came across 1 where me and a friend of mine were using each other's technology. That reminded me about a rule at my former blind school that really grinds against my nerves, so I figured I'd post here to get opinions. BTW, to the friend I'm referring too, I think you might know who you are, you're on this forum and I'd appreciate your opinion as well if you'd like to tell me. You may also have to correct me about certain things sense I'm getting this info from memory. There's a rule where you are not allowed to grant other people permission to use your stuff. I am a firm believer that I am the king of my stuff, and if I want to let my best friend use my laptop then no teacher should be allowed to tell me no, and neither should anyone else. If people want to use my stuff, they should ask me, no authority should have the right to tell them no because it's not their stuff, it's mine. I found out about this rule when my friend/roommate told me I wasn't allowed to use his braille plus 18, because the house parent told him no. Ever sense then, it's angered me a lot. What do you guys think?

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2018-01-02 10:57:55

I would have contacted a lawyer about it. I wouldn't take that crap from anyone, no matter how old or young I was. The belief is that the more prohibitions are set, the more people are going to be daring in defying authority. Which is why people say that if there were fewer laws, there wouldn't be as much crime.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2018-01-02 11:16:42

I am not sure about class, a friend and myself used to share stuff outside of classes in the library, someone did touch my stuff and monkeyed with it and got told off but that was basically it.
I think you should be allowed to share, ofcause not all teachers are switched on.
I was doing stuff in class once, but me and a friend were sharing devices remotely doing things, the teacher never caught on.
So whatever

2018-01-02 13:07:28

I agree with you, it is your stuff so you should always have the final word on who you'll allow to use it and who you don't want to touch it, and what you want should be respected and honored.

2018-01-02 13:46:39

Hi.
@shotgunshell Actually, let me correct you on some things. I first heard about that rule back in 2014 when you left your phone on the desk while I was talking to someone on Skype, since you went to go do something, can't remember what though. The teacher came up to me and told me the rule that I wasn't allowed to use YOUR phone, and that's when I told the rule to you, so it wasn't an issue with my Braille Plus 18, keep in mind that it was bricked at the time.

2018-01-02 15:14:52

Ahh, here we go again with their overprotection. They've got it all wrong, your stuff is your own, and you have full control over it. Now if it was the school's own device, I could understand, that's a bit more reasonable. But it wasn't, it was your own damn device, so they have no right to control it.

2018-01-02 15:31:32

I guess that would depend on whether you purchased the device out of pocket, or if a voc rehab agency bought it for you, or whatnot. But if the school loaned you the device, then that's a whole different story.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2018-01-02 15:34:19

first thing's first; I'd like to clarify that I'm not here to start a riot or even a dispute, that I do sympathise with everything that's been said on this topic, and that before I became a parent, I probably would have agreed with it entirely.  there are a few things here, however, that are being overlooked which need addressing:
1.  When you say something is yours, is it really?  Does it no longer belong to any other entity or organization, perhaps the school you're going to, or the company that helped pay for it?
2.  If the answer is that it does belong to someone else, does that someone else have to pay for repairs in the event such equipment does get broken?
3.  who is responsible for any damages?  Who has to answer for them?  And finally, the one you dread hearing,
4.  Are you of an age where you are considered a legal adult?  I know, I know you hate that question; so do I, and I'm an adult already... the problem is that, without this one being entirely true, there is little in the way of legal recourse for you in most every country for you to try and begin arbitrating what any other legal adult should or should not do.
I'm not opposed to you being king of everything you own, if you in fact own it.  Sadly, you have to read the fineprint in just about everything that is quote, "given to you."  These are things you're probably not aware of, such as rules regarding what can and cannot be done with equipment as long as you're still considered a child under the school's responsibility and you're not the one paying for it in the event that it's broken.  Even with adults there are rules of this nature; I didn't know that for some insane reason Apple still feels they own your iOS device even after you pay for it, but it becomes exceptionally clear once you jailbreak the stupid thing.
Getting back to the issue at hand, however, if you are a legal adult and the device is being handed to you by an organization such as division for blind services here in the  US, you are actually entirely responsible for the device and anything that happens to it, at which point the teacher really should have no say in it and you can tell them to seriously go mind their own business.  Admitedly, if something does happen to it, you'll more than likely have to answer to DBS in regards to what happened to it, assuming you still have some sort of case with them under which equipment is being purchased for you, because there isn't an endless supply of, well, lets call it, "free money."  Every piece of equipment you own costs something, usually paid for by costing someone tax dollars.  As long as you're on this hook, many people, teachers included, will feel the right and even obligation to tell you what you should and should not do with it, since they themselves are tax payers.  Once you're an adult, however, and you can prove you're not misusing the equipment by any stretch of the imagination, there really is no reason they should do so.
I hate to be the one to put such a damper on this party of sorts, but I'd hate to be the one who looked the other way and let someone get into further trouble by allowing them to say, "Yeah, this is mine!  I own it!  I should be responsible and you can't tell me what to do!"

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2018-01-02 19:47:06

I can see both sides of this, and good points have been raised all round, especially Nocturnus. I can also see why, even if it is your device that you own legally, and paid in full, why they would want to keep people off of it. What if, unbeknownst to you, someone came and messed with your phone while you were out, and broke it, either by dropping it, or updating it or something else. OK, sure the chances of that happening are low, but if such a thing were to happen, the school would probably have at least some liability there. So if they tell someone not to touch someone else's stuff, its just them protecting themselves legally.

I do not like a lot of rules, and refuse to put myself in a position where I would be expected to follow someone else's rules. That's why I'm grateful my parents wanted me to do mainstream classes and I never went to a braille jail, which is an apt name because those places really are terrible from all accounts I've heard. I am an adult at 31 years of age, and I don't plan on it, but if I ever did have a child or god forbid, children, and they happened to be blind, i would not subject them to such a place.

I will relate a story from when I was 18. It was the summer leading up to my senior year in high school. My OVR counselor talked my parents into sending me to this camp. I didn't want to go, but my dad said well if you want to go to your friend's house this summer, you'll go. Anyway, I went there and it was the biggest waste of time I've ever spent in some type of educational program. My counselor straight up lied to me and my parents, as, when I got there, I discovered I was the only blind / visually impaired person there. The program was for people with learning disabilities, which I didn't have, so what they covered there was stuff I already know or did. It was a lot of stuff like study techniques, how to take good notes, and it was completely stupid from my point of view. The afternoons were spent outside doing something, and that was sort of fun, we went to a museum, this thing up a mountain where we went up a cable car and got ice cream, I don't really remember the other things. Anyway, They were pushing this school on us, and part of the camp was held there, but this school, while for adults, had so many rules it wasn't even funny. It was a college, and they expected you to eat at least one meal in the cafeteria a day, be in at like 10 at night every night, lights out and all this other stuff. I wrote that place off my list straight away, and I was already looking into colleges because my senior year, I put in a lot of applications.

This one guy who ran most of it, oh me and this guy got into it. I was coming down one night after being at the pool in the hotel they put us up in. I got some money from my dad to spend while I was there, and I was walking over to the soda machine, and he stopped me and said you're not allowed to buy from there, if you want a soda, you can come to our hospitality room. I was like straight up what the fuck? Keep in mind that this guy had no authority over me, I had already turned 18, a legal adult for like 3 and a half months. I didn't want to drink sodas and eat food and stuff in a room with a bunch of other people, I'm not really the most social person. I just wanted a soda, and I was gonna go back up to my room and watch TV until I went to bed. I got pissed and bought one anyway and took it up to my room. Then, a second time I was down there, me and my roommate wanted to order a movie. It was an R-rated movie, but both of us were 18, so I went down to order it at the front desk, and out walks this mother frigger out the elevator and starts interrogating me. He was trying to tell me I wasn't allowed to order a movie, I was like ex, fucking, scuse me? And we had this big thing over it and I was just like to the lady just order it, I have the money to pay for it. Now, had me or my roommate been under 18, I wouldn't have said anything, it was an R-rated movie, but we were both adults, so this guy trying to tell me I couldn't order it was absurd. He actually didn't care about the fact it was an R-rated movie, he didn't want me ordering movies at all. Like, listen, I know you guys foot the bill for the program, and that includes the hotel, but I'm not gonna order a movie and not pay for it, sheesh.

Then, worst of all, it was the final night, this thing was only four days long, thank god for that small miracle. Housekeeping had been in, and they always put the remote on top of the TV. I sat on the bed and reached over to the night table where I'd left it, realizing it wasn't there, so I got up out of bed, and went and got it off the top of the TV. And, before people start screaming about how can you put stuff on top a TV, this was 2004 bruh, flat screen TV's weren't all over the place, this was a CRT. Anyway, got the remote, put it on the table and sat in bed. I shrugged outta my clothes and threw them on the floor, and went to swing my legs up and over, and fell and wacked the side of my head on the corner of the table. Damn did that ever hurt! But it wasn't really a sharp corner or anything, so I didn't really think anything of it and just laid back down in bed, except, after a while, my head felt weird, like sticky stuff in my hair or something, so i looked, and the whole pillow was covered in blood. I went into the bathroom to try to assess the situation and realized it was pretty bad. My head was sort of dented where it hit, I guess it was a harder impact than I thought. It was bleeding profusely, and my roommate freaked... the hell... out. I wasn't really bothered to be honest, that stuff doesn't really bother me. I did figure I'd probably have to go to the hospital for stitches though. He went running for the one guy, thankfully not that guy, one of the other counselors running the camp, and he woke up the 3 pack a day old lady who chainsmoked like a damn chimney, and she got my insurance information, and me and the dude walked the few blocks over to the hospital. That was a damn pain in the ass, let me tell you. Infomercials on the TV, screaming babies and crap at like 12:30 at night, and I don't even get seen for like an hour and a half. The nurse comes over and gives me a pad to put on it, etc. and they have to keep changing it out because it keeps bleeding. Anyway, the doc finally sees me, and cleans it up and puts four staples in my head. That shit hurt, each one hurt worse than the one before it. It was like, after 2 in the morning until I got out of there, I was dead tired, annoyed because of people being loud and stuff, and I went into the room, the roommate was still up... I can't even figure that, but he was, and I went to sleep and zonked out until the next day. Then my dad shows up and the lady tells him I had a little accident, making it sound like I pissed my pants or something. I''m sure my dad was thinking WTF?

Well, they gave me a staple remover to take to my doctor in two weeks in case they didn't have the correct size one. This thing wasn't in my town, it was like 3 hours away. I hate going to the doctor's like, really bad, so I say to my dad, why don't you just take them out. So that's what we do. He gives me a towel to bite on, and that hurt 10 times as bad going out than coming in, again, one hurt worse then than the next, until he off-handedly remarks that he thought he was using the tool wrong. The fourth one came out no problem, didn't even fell it. He cleaned it up and that was the end of it, but yeah, that camp... sucked!

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2018-01-02 20:20:42

most of what I'm going to say is just beating a dead horse from what others have said but I'm going to say it anyway.

1. it depends who bought your tech and how it is being paid for. I remember a person I heard of could not get her desktop computer replaced a few years ago because they checked her house and the equipment and the thing had failed because of roach crap and eggs in it. Though it was a full family affair as to why it was like that (she was a teen and the whole family were pigs.) I wouldn't want to pay 1500 more bucks to replace something when someone wouldn't take good care of it. Same thing with other stuff you are bought so it is reasonable for the disability or other folks to hold you to some accountability.
2. Schools are often held accountable for the behavior of students while they are there, camps as well, and that can also count even if you are a legal adult in some cases. Plus, though a lot of you guys obviously hate schools for the blind and from what I've heard you ought to,  and perhaps those of you who went to regular schools had tough times too, (mine in regular school were pretty good.) those institutions catch crap from people all the time. They often have little power over their charges, you can make more money than most school officials and teachers working at McDonalds, they work long hours, and there are lots of spurious and unreasonable demands made on them by groups of parents. My Sister works with Special Education in the city and she deals with tons of legitimate cases of disability and mistreatment, but she also tells me of both teachers and parents demanding the impossible, blaming teachers or staff for things they were not responsible for, or deflecting their own mistreatment of their own children on the staff.

This is not to say there isn't a lot of injustice done to the kids themselves by the system, which my sister also polices in her job and finds myriad instances of, but Schools as it stands are in a state of constant paranoia from the top down and need to protect themselves and also try to sort out everything. They might be held accountable for a student breaking another student's technology in a sort of "why didn't the teacher prevent this?" affair, which my sister has had to deal with.

Also, there are other concerns besides vision-related ones as well and accessibility and lawsuits. There are certain things that students are not legally allowed to view at school, regardless of where the thing comes from.

Suppose I'm a real sleezbag tween: I ask my buddy to look at his phone to "show him something," At which point I access youtube and turn on some dirty something or other. If I can only touch my own phone, and they find the phone showing dirty pictures, they can only blame me and it is easy to maintain discipline and order. It gets muggy if you don't know who was using what to do what, so they have that rule to narrow down their protocals and make sorting things out easier, as again, they are super-overworked and overtaxed at their jobs and they need these rules to smooth things out.

That said, these rules suck terribly and they aren't quite fair, but I see their utility and why they would be in place. You weren't allowed to use your friends' tech for the following reasons I see it.

1. the friend was accountable to some service for the object, allowing you to use it would put that object ot an unknown risk, and a smart Department for the blind would be risk-averse.
2. Allowing your friend to use your tech puts the school at risk for accountability due to blind-department-related risk.
3. allowing your friend to use your tech puts the school at risk for similar risks that it would happen for anyone else, (turning on dirty sites, hacking, god knows what else...) again, unlikely but avoiding risk is a smart thing for a school or government agency with little money to do.
4. in the event of a violation that exposes people to risks 1-3 saying formally that only the owner can use the object streamlines protocol and makes accountability easy to determine.

Again, not fair but that's why I see it happening and I see the logic behind it. Also, although it is a bit different, actually the moment you turn 18 in certain cases does not mean legal adulthood in all contexts. Yes, you are legal to vote at 18 even if you are in high school but while you are actually attending high school, in the context of many school-related rules you are not an adult until you drop out or graduate.

That's all I've got to say.

2018-01-02 20:49:07 (edited by Green Gables Fan 2018-01-02 20:51:31)

That's why I advocate for legal resources that people with disabilities should have access to. While I don't think advertising is encouraged on the forum, I work as an associate of Legal Shield. It is these kind of bureaucracies an attorney can help you navigate. Schools have all sorts of weird rules and policies that might not fall within reason.
For example, all schools are required to punish everyone involved in a violent fight, even the victim who was not the aggressor. The sad part is that we as a blind community cannot afford legal advice, unless, in the US, you wanted to apply for Legal Aid.
Still, if I were in your shoes, I'd try to do it quietly and talk to the superintendent or something before going to an attorney.
As for the legal adult thing, you can request emancipation if you can prove that you are emotionally capable of being independent and have a steady source of income, plus any circumstance that would make it impossible for you to not want to have to be in the foster system.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2018-01-02 22:27:39

i do go to a boarding school for the blind myself, and they have a hole lot of rules i don't agree with. however, like a few people have said already, a lot of the rules are just in place so the school doesn't get into shit. they'll always have the problem of parents, and parents can be quite unreasonable some times, aspecialy when it comes to there children. i mean, if anything happened to there childs teck while they were at that school, they'll probably blame the school for letting someone else use the teck and damage it. i think this is also the reason for a lot of other rules with those kind of schools, cause if the parents get pissed off, they could get sooed or just have a lot of negative reviews, so for the most part it's better for the school to just have those rules to avoid getting on parents bad sides

2018-01-02 22:41:34 (edited by Dan Gero 2023-07-19 07:32:17)

@FamilyMario Ah the makes sense. Still though, it was my cell phone, they should have asked me if I gave you permission to use it. BTW, for future reference, you are allowed to touch most of my stuff minus the stuff that was given to me by the DBS. If an adult tells you no, go ahead and ignore them. Not that I'm going back to that school again, but if you and I ever go anywhere else that happens to have the same rule, just ask me. That being said...
@Nocturnus
1.  When you say something is yours, is it really?  Does it no longer belong to any other entity or organization, perhaps the school you're going to, or the company that helped pay for it?
At the time I didn't have anything from an organization, so all my stuff was technically bought by my parents. When you look at it that way, I guess I really didn't own anything of mine.
2.  If the answer is that it does belong to someone else, does that someone else have to pay for repairs in the event such equipment does get broken?
Yes, my parents would have had to pay for it.
3.  who is responsible for any damages?  Who has to answer for them?
Mom and Dad.
And finally, the one you dread hearing,
4.  Are you of an age where you are considered a legal adult?  I know, I know you hate that question; so do I, and I'm an adult already... the problem is that, without this one being entirely true, there is little in the way of legal recourse for you in most every country for you to try and begin arbitrating what any other legal adult should or should not do.
No I'm not a legal adult, I will be in 1 month and 28 days.
The thing is, I understand these rules are there for a reason, but I think the adult should ask me first. "Hey Dan, did you give FamilyMario permission to touch your stuff?" "yes I did or no I didn't or just for today or something else." "OK, I'll update that accordingly." In the end, I have the final say in who touches my stuff, and I wouldn't even let my parents tell me no. I know, that may seem selfish, but that's me in general.

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2018-01-02 22:42:13

But, couldn't you argue on the other side that some of these rules could impose problems, and you would have lawsuits on both sides? You say that schools have these rules because of fears of lawsuits, when something else comes up and the school gets sued for it anyway.
I'll give you a similar example. My school district did not allow my teacher of the visually-impaired to communicate to a deaf student in my school. They didn't allow that teacher to call an IEP meeting to request additional services. They were also reprimanded and threatened in writing to be fired if they continued to tell parents of students about additional services. I should mmention that this teacher had previously worked at a school for the blind before it closed, due to the legislation who believed that there were not enough students attending the school. When my teacher was fired, they called an attorney, and they determined that the school was in the wrong and a lawsuit was filed, to which I was a witness to. If I come across rules that are unreasonable, I'm not going to accept it without a fight. All rules have to be within reason. That's how you will have a functional society.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2018-01-02 23:07:47

maybe, either way, the only people I think should consider working for schools are masacists because that's the only way stress isn't going to kill you in thos jobs.

I'm reminded of a Mark Twaine quote from all of this:

In the beginning, God created idiots. This was to practice. Then he created schoolboards.

2018-01-03 00:51:12

before writing this reply, I had a good think. here are my thoughts on the matter, from all 4 sides. first, my own side. if I allow you to touch my equipment, that means I trust you, and by all means, you're free to do so. but if I  haven't, and you still do, I would pretty much straight up, tell you to go to hell. I don't care if it's a county/district device, whether my own... I paid for it, I take care of it, I decide over it. if they don't like it, they shouldn't provide me with one. having said all that, if I'm not around, and the teacher isn't aware of our agreement, then I will not blame the teacher, since they only wanted to try and defend me. if it's a case of the teacher knowing our agreement, and they start nickpicking, the story changes. same goes for if I'm in the room with you, and I pass on my equipment. in other words, as long as there's an agreement between us, and the teacher is aware of, they should have no saying over it.

2018-01-03 00:56:51

Reality is the way reality is.  If you dont' push for common sense there's trivial lawsuits.  If trivial lawsuits win common sense goes right out the window and people are making out with money that doesn't realistically belong to them.  think about all the people who goe to coffee shops and spill hot drinks on themselves, then blame the shop for their idiocy.  I just heard of one guy at a Walmart who claimed that the store he went to, is to fault for his having broken his hip, after he went to look at a watermellon.  Apparently, part of the display was set up in such a way that he was able to get his foot stuck under a pallet beneath a box and fell over.  The problem I see with it is that Walmarts all over the globe use these things, and, uh, no one else is getting stuck in that way.  Needless to say, the guy was awarded some 7million dollars.  This happens all the time.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2018-01-04 02:11:49

The school I went to for high school has been known for making up its own rules. During my last year or 2 of high school we got this nice new bathroom with automatic paper towel dispensers and so on. So someone goes in and breaks everything, now everyone in the whole school knows who did it and yet the teachers felt that they had to walk every male to the bathroom until said person confesses. I was like 17 or 18 at the time and I was having none of it. I don't think being 18 should have anything to do with it. As a human you have basic rights and if you go out and use your own money to buy something it’s yours to do with as you please. If a parent buys you something and gives it to you and you’re under 18 and you are willing to take the fall when someone breaks something of yours then why not? Either it was an accident or you learn not to trust that person. It be different if your parents told you not to let anyone else use said object and you were under 10 years old. At a certain age schools really need to stop babying you and holding your hand. If they don't however will you learn to do things for yourself and be independent? I can also see if you were disturbing class or something like that but otherwise if you own it you can let whoever you want use it.

Kingdom of Loathing name JB77

2018-01-04 05:33:39

@Jeffb Do you remember what the teachers were trying to accomplish by acting that way? Seems to me like they knew who did it and were just trying to start shit.

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2018-01-04 07:47:51

I can agree  with Nocturnus points, especially having seen kids myself are a general risk to everything just by existing.
That being said, the problem with many braille jails (love that phrase btw), is that rules are imposed not because of any sort of underlying logic or even fear of reprisal, simply because they are rules and  having the clockwork blind people follow, well blindly is easier than trying to actually teach them to have any sort of initiative.

When I was eight in the early nineties the school i was at literally forbade you from touching  anything at all that was not directly presented to you by a teacher or house parent.
I don't just mean tech, I mean things like cups, tables, even your own sweets etc. If you had your own stuff it was basically  a game of hide it away since if it came under scrutiny it would be regulated. Seriously I remember one Christmas where some charity or other had given all the girls a barby doll and all the boys an action force figure (each (that is g i jo in the states). I was having a look at my friends while he examined mine, and we both got a right royal yelling at.

On another occasion one boy had some rubber monsters I was looking at, he proceeded to drop one, told the teacher and got me a severe yelling at.

We used to dare the authorities by having what we refered to as an mnf, or midnight feast where we'd sneak out of bed and get a chocolate bar we bought from home. Bare in mind this was our chocolate in the first place, and was composed of one bar, it wasn't like  were stealing someone else's or were eating six bars at a stretch that would make us sick, yet we regarded it as a great adventure and a breaking of the rules, since we knew had we been caught we'd have been in amazingly dire trouble, (we once got called out in front of the entire school in assembly for  talking early in the morning).

with tech the situation was the same. I remember one occasion where my brailler bust, printing the odd dot faintly. I was certain it was a fault on the brailler, as indeed anyone who has used one will know, however of course since I was regarded as the school's bad boy and was the staff's favourite person to blaim things on it was my! fault, and my teacher, who was a dead ringer for prof umbridge basically forced me to do braille copying every day for a straight week until "my braille  improved" I asked to try another brailler, but was told it was my fault.

Eventually I got heartily sick of  the hole  thing, snuck down after hours and switched my brailler with one of the spare ones (they didn't' have names on),  and then of course it was fine, but had I been found out I'd have been in seriously deep do do. 

Now, all that being said, I do see nocturnus point, however in my case when as a teenager at secondary school, and later at university  I was! given tech by a student  allowance or from the school's resource budgit it was made clear to me that tech was mine to take care of, and i knew for a fact that if it bust replacing it would not be an easy matter, either financially or in terms of logic.

Admittedly at that point in my shithole secondary school there was more chance of my tech being maliciously damaged than of me inviting a friend to use it, as in fact happened when someone emptied a bag of crisps over my head and my toshiba laptop, or on the other occasion  ran round the class room and renched my braille n speak cable out of the wall, resetting it and wiping the hard drive. Indeed in that place, damaging tech was a favourite method of getting at blind students generally and me in particular.

So I do see Nocturnus point here, though myself I'd say it'd be better to get the kids to learn responsibility, especially since I doubt malicios tech damage of the sort I experienced at secondary  is quite as likely (well I can hope I suppose).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-01-04 08:24:59

@Dark I'm not exactly sure if I asked you this already, but how come you never tried to directly challenge the authority's demands. Speaking from experience, when you challenge these people, it makes them want to deal with you less and less, eventually leading to the point where they're absolutely sick of you and send you back home. At that point your parent(s) would have to send you to another school, where you could have had a better life. The staff abused me, sure, but there's only so much they can dish out before they lose it themselves and get sick of you.

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2018-01-04 08:26:41

Like I said in post 8, I sincerely hate it'; I had to live it at one point.  Even in the mainstream system it follows you around, particularly when you're younger, you have so-called VI teachers and O and M instructors, etc.  It's never fun to be told what you can and can't do with something you see as your own and which you see as your own for a reason, such as the fact that, well, uh, you're the one using it practically all of the time?
But then we get down to the whole common sense versus protection against trivialities aspect of things... See post 17.  There is never a general consensus all the way across the board as to when it is perfectly alright to asume that a person has acquired this supposed common sense.  France is different from the UK, the US is different from both, and those differences can varry in the case of the US from state to state!  Some states consider you legal at 17, some at 18!  Once upon a time it was legal for parents to hold you under their roof until you were 21!  As Dark has pointed out, there are perfectly mature teens who can handle everything from their looks and sexuality, to taking care of their elderly grandparents and making decisions for others quite effectively and responsibly.  then you have 40 and 50somethings who act like they are stereotypical teens.  In the case of blind and vision impaired individuals it gets even dicier because there are those among us who have more than just their malfunctioning or nonfunctioning eyeballs to deal with, mental, emotional and social or psychological and even neurological issues sometimed linked to their visuall impairment.  I'd love it if we could all be judged by our own merrit and on our own clean slate, but since when has society ever been collectively good at doing that!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2018-01-04 09:18:29

Well, I know not how we can achieve this, but I do know this. From now on, I urge all of you to record everything that happens and use that as evidence against them.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2018-01-04 12:41:13

@Nocturnus, yes, that is the general problem, society can only deal with people in categories, so forces people to behave in those categories and then complains when people don't fit.
Bottom line, society is an arse hole!

@Shotgun, you probably don't have experience of dealing with the sort of total environmental control that some braille jails use. We're talking emotional manipulation, out and out threats. If you read Umbridge in Harry potter and the order of the phenix you'll have a good idea at the type of thing. For example, the occasion my friend and I were caught talking, the headmaster gave an assembly before the entire school on "the virtue of forgiveness" which was planely directed at us.

Yeah, you could kick and scream and act like a little kid, but that would just result in you being treated like one, indeed there was one girl who had various learning disabilities and did! act like that and she was pretty much just locked in one special class room permanently.

As for telling your parents, that was again part of the emotional manipulation, you were always told "we'll tell your parents! what would your parents think if you behaved like that" etc etc.

The fact that I fully well knew why I was there, to learn braille didn't help either.

It's easy to say "I wouldn't put up with that!" when your sitting here reading on a forum, but in practice from the inside things look very different. It isn't really a wonder that the majority of people who finished up  school ended up with fairly severe emotional damage that has carried on into adult hood.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-01-04 17:30:53

@Dark I'm all to familiar with the emotional manipulation you're talking about, because I experienced it first hand. I was locked in class rooms, and I was locked in basements. Your situation is pretty close to mine. I still fought them though, and it worked. I guess it depends on the personality of the teachers and parents alike. Fortunately I had teachers that were impatient and parents who believed me because I always told them the truth, so everything worked out fine for me. If you had teachers who were trained to deal with students and parents who don't believe everything you tell them, then it could make things harder.

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