2017-12-09 05:50:57

There are quite a few braille displays lately, the Canute, Graphiti, Orbit Reader 20, etc. that are coming on the market at more "affordable" prices, generally from 400$ to 800$ or more. While its an improvement, for that price I'd imagine they could still be considered luxury items of a sort. As consumers people may have certain expectations of quality and features for that cost such as a fast refresh rate, 8 dots per cell, a minimum number of braille cells, etc.

Something i'm wondering however is if users would be willing to sacrifice features and quality in exchange for a much steeper discount. For example let's say theres a braille display with 8 cells, 6 dots per cell, and a 5 second refresh rate. No other features or buttons at all, just a basic display for use with a PC screen reader. Now lets say that display was only 50$. Compared to many of the other braille displays on the market it could be considered inferior, but for that price, would you be tempted? How affordable and how spartan would a display have to be, to be considered worth it?

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2017-12-09 20:22:56

Personally if there is a brail display with 40 cels and just some other extra buttons for moving but no wheels or jumping or whatnot and costs from 400 to 1000 dollars would be fine, though I cant say that I would still buy it because I have just got use to speech and it will be difficult to renember brail again, pluss I am ultra slow in reading brail so if it refreshes automatically I may not be yet able to read to the end of the line, but still I may buy it if there is a real reason.

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2017-12-10 03:16:03

Hm, manual and automatic refresh, yes thats something else to think about. Do you consider 40 cells to be a relatively good average size? If the display were cheaper, like 300$, 200$, or less, would you be more inclined to get one? Maybe thats a bit of a silly question, I mean who wouldn't want to get things cheaper? But what if it only had 30 cells? Or 20? Would a 100$ to 200$ drop in the bottom price be enough for half the number of cells?

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2017-12-10 08:03:42

The Orbit Reader is supposed to be a $500 display with 20 cells. That's bargain enough that I'd consider it if the thing would ever come out. But that's primarily because it is the only halfway affordable option in general.
I was honestly kinda shocked when I looked up prices for a variety of hardware, and found printers for $30. That's, like, 2 slates. Like, what they were using in the 19th century. I'd buy a Perkins for $50, and I still have one of those in a trailer somewhere.
And then there's the Focus14, which feels like it should be capable of playing games but presently isn't (outside of Dotris). I don't quite remember the price; somewhere in the $1200-1500 range? So $100 per cell, or thereabouts. Ideally, $100 for the whole thing would be a bit much.
I'd only take a multisecond refresh rate if it was a multiline display, so the lines I'm not reading can update without forcing me to wait. The Orbit Reader's refresh rate isn't all that bad, in that it's hard to scroll and move to the start of the line before it's far enough to be readable. Anything slower needs a lot more than going from painfully expensive to just kinda expensive.
Really, though, I'm willing to settle for a tiny market markup of, like, 100%, or maybe even 3x. But only for comparable products. Which means anything $2000 or above really should be more than a single line.
So, yeah, the Canute sounds nice, by this standard. The Orbit Reader sounds nice in the sense that paying $500 for a 20-letter screen is better than paying $2000 for a 20-letter screen, but $500 for a full page, and the downside is a slower refresh rate? That's much, much better.
I'd still like tiny things, like timers or watches or thermometers or that little display on the Wiimote. I don't know if the cost scales poorly for those, or if no one has ever felt like puting in the work for anything that miniscule. But it seems like something that should have been done ages ago, since individuals could more easily afford them, they'd need less software support, could use simpler parts, and could basically be a way to get the idea out there and bring in money for r&d on the bigger stuff. But I'm on the wrong side of the glass to know if that's as simple as it sounds.

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2017-12-11 03:13:29 (edited by magurp244 2017-12-11 03:24:07)

Hm, interesting value proposition, it's seems a tricky subject considering individuals different needs, heh. I guess there would be a lower threshold for refresh rate, if only from an effective usability standpoint in term's of navigating or being able to properly read lines. What do you mean by timers, watches, and thermometers? Are you referring to more affordable versions, or different tactile models?

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2017-12-11 21:11:22

Nothing much, I can stay with 18 cels or less if needed, but I need a kiap display who can take notes and use it with the computer or my phone to be faster in reading.
Refreshing rate is nothing for me, cause I can refresh it and I want to buy something like that.

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2017-12-12 05:16:18 (edited by defender 2017-12-12 05:33:30)

The 32 cell displays on allot of notetakers usually didn't feel too cramped for me, but I'd imagine that a 20 would.
40 is more ideal though.
IMO (slow) autorefresh is agonizing, and takes away much of the usefulness of a braille display.
I would much prefer manual.


Bluetooth isn't a must, but if you could pay like 50 bucks more for a model with it, than that would be great, since really, that's as much as you should have to pay at this point for decent Bluetooth (E.G. doesn't drop constantly or take for ever to scan slash pair) anyway.
With all the sub 150USD phones that have it, their just isn't any good excuse for it to cost so much outside of HQ audio or connection stability critical stuff like robotics; I'm not asking for multiple device profiles or switching on the fly either.
Same goes for physical memory or an SD card slot, things that are truthfully very useful for notes, but are often artificially overpriced.
I'd probably pay around 200USD extra for both things together, since you need firmware and batteries, and it means more things can go wrong, so if you offered repairs you may need more people or someone with more experience.
Speaking of batteries, I'd be fine with plain old double or triple A's on a wireless model to drive costs down if needed, they do it with mice right? :-)
As for the total, I'd really just hope for under 1000, since it seems foolish to try and go from 3K or so down to 500 in one go, and I insist on good build quality, both externally and internally; plus, maybe an included carrying case and cleaning kit, though I'd buy those things separately for like 60 and 25USD each as long as they were decent quality.


I haven't had a modern braille display for quite a long time though, mostly I'm going off my friend's experiences, so take my opinion for what that's worth.

2017-12-13 06:44:59 (edited by magurp244 2017-12-13 06:52:03)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts on this, it's proving to be quite informative, heh.

Wireless systems tend to be unreliable in general, its hard to say if its usually a result of the transmitter being too weak or too much localized EM interference, or both. Like you say though the cost of bluetooth shouldn't be all that much, the Raspberry Pi Zero retails for 5$, while the RasPi Zero W with built in bluetooth and wifi capabilities retails for 10$. Sure its double the price, but the overall cost, especially when you compare it to other RasPi models both with and without wifi which are around 35$ its still relatively cheap.

Alright here's another question, some open source electronics like the [OpenBCI] EEG headset retail for around 800$, but you can buy them as a kit of parts that you assemble yourself for 600$, or just the electronics where you have to 3D print the other components and assemble it all yourself for 350$. What if you could buy a braille display as a kit that you assemble yourself, or with some assistance, for such a discount or half price? Is that an option any of you would consider? Lets assume for the moment that there's no soldering or cutting involved, something more like ikea furniture.

As a bonus question, what about being able to customize your braille display? Such as having a custom embossed image on the case, custom shaped case, or braille text? Or how about custom braille pins? Like smooth rounded pins, square pins, rough textured pins, pointy pins, or combinations thereof?

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2017-12-13 08:06:40 (edited by defender 2017-12-13 18:08:04)

I totally forgot about the Pie... LOL
Though I was under the impression that wireless mice and keyboards were quite reliable nowadays...


I also forgot to mention cursor routing buttons.
If the display is small enough for most people to read the entire thing comfortably with one hand, than I really don't see the point in paying for them, since unless something has changed, I don't think you can say, move your cursor to the start of the word and spellcheck it, and using left and right arrow keys to do so is fine by me.
Or are those really only a thing on notetakers anyway.


If it would truly bring the cost down than I guess I'd be fine with assembling it, but I don't think most people would spring for that. The option would be nice though.
Your still talking about tiny screws, reading through instructions, and perfectly centering small components, not losing any of them in the mean time, even without any soldering.
Unless you've done that kind of thing before, than you will be either pretty intimidated, or need a willing sighted person handy to help you (not exactly a confidence booster) plus they might just fuck it up not knowing enough about braille displays anyway.


As for case customization, I've never understood the appeal for most of that stuff, but I know several blind people who do, and I could see individual names (for differentiation) and or the name slash logo of the institution in braille being useful for larger orders.
Different case materials and styles may be useful too, for different price points and needs.
E.G. hard case with full protection, rugged  carabiner loop and optional waterproofing, larger soft case with padded shoulder strap and optional side pockets, case with adjustable stand, wrist rest, and small pockets, slim leather case with brass clasp, ETC.
Beyond the basic gray, dark blue, and black, I don't think much color choice would be necessary (for obvious reasons tongue) but you could see about the demand for it later on.


The pins thing well, I really couldn't say, it never even occurred to me to be honest. O.o
Their is always a trade off between overwhelming the customer with choices and allowing businesses (and some individuals) to customize units to their liking.
Ambutec is a good example of how to do it right, in my opinion.
If their are any true potential benefits to non standard pin shapes, than I would allow people to customize the main product, rather than choosing from multiple models, and I would have an easily accessible breakdown of the advantages of each choice available as well.
Otherwise it frankly just seems like a frivolity, though an admittedly pretty cool one. LOL

2017-12-13 11:15:33

I would be all for the Some Assembly Required display! big_smile I'd have to think more on the customization. It could be a way to keep prices low while allowing people to upgrade over time, or something like that.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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2017-12-15 09:18:21

@defender
I've known people who've never had any problems with wireless keyboards and mice, but then again i've also had ones that were jittery or flaky with their connections. Maybe its particular brands or just personal preference, I tend to stick with wired devices and avoid potential connectivity issues and battery swapping. In regards to buttons, now that I think about it are there actually any Braille Displays that don't have any buttons on them? I imagine screen readers like NVDA could use the on screen cursor to send a specific segment in a row of text to a display, such as everything to the right of the cursors position?

For the braille pins, it seems like a neat kind of customization for asthetics. Maybe not necessarily practical, but then again LED backlit keyboards aren't much either, heh. If braille cells were tightly packed together custom pins could be a good way to differentiate between cells, or maybe such things could prove to be a distraction when trying to read the actual braille symbols being displayed. It would be interesting to see how people make use of it, if at all.

@CAE_Jones
Ooo, I really like the idea of Braille Displays being something like tower case PC's or the oft dreamt of modular phones, like the shelved [Project Ara]. Being able to buy additional components to upgrade the cell count, refresh rate, or even get a new case for addtional buttons or options would be pretty cool, not to mention being another way to push costs down with incremental upgrades.

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