2017-11-19 02:53:20

Just a quick response with some more logs:

It seems that Lokar has an issue with me not including the logs from before his vulgar avatar comment, so I'll provide what instigated this, re: the Donald bot:

You gossip, 'Why shouldn't it be on gossip?'
Lokar gossips, 'How on earth is it not obvious why it shouldn't be on gossip?'
You gossip, 'Clearly it isn't. That's why I asked. Stop being an ass.'

Hopefully that's slightly more transparent! Sorry I didn't include them before, I just had the avatar stuff in Dropbox and didn't feel the need to logsift to get the gossip sends.

2017-11-19 04:34:54

There are a couple things I'd like to address here.

First  would be LordLundins assertion that he started behaving like more of an 'asshole' because of the direction of the game. I think it's fair to note that the player behind that account has displayed frankly psychotic behavior which has actually caused me to be concerned that he may be a danger to those around him. Including a post that he later edited from this very forum where he talked about wanting to drag some girl out in to the woods and torture her. Unless the games changes were some how responsible for his behavior outside the game I feel like that is a totally invalid statement, and if the game changes are somehow responsible for his behavior outside the game I highly suggest he adjust his priorities.

Regarding equipment and how insane he seems to think it has become, power creep happens. The majority of gear he himself may think is acceptable are things we would never have dreamed of when I was a newbie (clev on gear before level 25, hahahaha what?)

Now regarding Ignotus post. He did add a second post showing what lead up to my reaction in avatar, but I want to be sure to make it clear that my reaction was in anger after having been told to 'stop being an ass' My initial comment to him while maybe not super helpful was also not really an attack and could have simply been met with 'Clearly it isn't.' without the added insult. However this kind of difficulty from Ignotus is not exactly uncommon.

It probably does not make it ok to react the way I did, and I probably did go overboard, but I did not jump straight in to ripping him a new one like the initial post seemed to state, I'm pretty sure most people don't enjoy being told to 'stop being an ass' particularly when they feel they are making a reasonable request.

The bot in question made very politically charged comments, which really was my only issue with it. To be clear, and though it really has no bearing on anything, I am not a trump supporter. I was not offended by the bot personally. I simply saw the chance it could cause offense and wished for it to be removed. Later on Ignotus did make changes to the bot and I personally thanked him for it.

Regarding the channel xp ban

I think its important to note that these bans are temporary bans and last for only 10 minutes. It is not a permanent removal from the channel. Additionally a filter was recently put on the mud to truncate such things as excessive haha's and ignotus intentionally bypassed it as he knew the filter only looked for two repeating characters. So why does this filter exist? Why are these things important? I personally am known for using sarcastic over exagerated numbers to indicate things are well excessive, or a lot such as '1923912371718239'. A lot of people find this to be spammy. I am not a blind player, these sorts of things don't bother me, but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean it isn't an issue. As a community of largely blind players I assume that things like this are understood. So then I'm told 'but hahahaha only takes a second to read' Except not everyone has their readers set to the same speed and excessive repeats can and will effect people differently.  This has been a consistant issue where its been requested people avoid doing it, and then finally instead a filter was put in place. This filter is not obnoxious in any way, it doesn't do anything to harm the message. I get it sometimes people find something hilarious and get a little carried away and spam things a lot. I do it myself. There's no reason to bypass the filter though, it doesn't exactly prevent the communication of your amusement.

Me and Ignotus did discuss the channel ban after it happened, he actually came up with what I thought was a reasonable solultion (being able to opt in to the filter, as apparently for some reason the filter bothers people and thats why they chose to bypass it.) I encouraged him to talk to Dentin or Shadowfax about it, suggesting he email Shadowfax as I usually find Shadowfax is open to reasonable suggestions.

Regarding the lexie incident in bovine
I actually 100% agree that this was not handled well. However I think its a pot calling kettle black sort of incident. Perhaps it was not intentional but I have seen incidents of ignotus passing out warnings of bans to people while people in his own clan were just as guilty in a given situation. It's possible ignotus was unaware somehow and missed that, but I find it a bit suspect. I have also seen his moderator action questioned many times as people didn't agree with what he did - this is where I accused him of making up rules earlier, perhaps that was a bit harsh, but it certainly does display a solid lack of agreement on general policy. Sadly I don't have logs of any of this cause I don't personally keep logs.

I wasn't actually there when the lexie/jonathon thing happened, but me and Jonathon did discuss it at length later to which anyone who talks to him can find out I did agree with Ignotus on this.

Regarding the time table
I said earlier on bovine today that it's very possible all this happened in a shorter time span than I thought. In my defense there has been a lot of ridiculous drama happening lately and it's very hard to keep track of it all.  It's possible that Ignotus timetable is correct, though I'm told by someone else that my estimate is closer as the confrontational drama stuff had been happening before the event in the logs. I'm personally willing to admit I could be wrong here though, as I stated already I don't keep logs.

A final note

I'm not 100% certain a ban was warranted, however I wont say it wasn't warranted ether. I do know that I have personally seen a lot of conflict, a lot of intentional trolling, a lot of intentional difficulty and in general unpleasantness. Yeah previously there was certainly a precedent set that showed that trouble players could get away with things for a long period of time without consequence, and I'll be honest, the trouble players I mentioned in my previous post were certainly worse than Ignotus ever was. Heck, when I was younger and less mature I was worse than Ignotus ever was. However that doesn't mean policy changes aren't good, and that perhaps being less tolerant of trouble isn't a good thing. If I saw someone behaving in the way I used to behave 10 years ago I'd want them banned, and yes I acknowledge that means more than likely I wouldn't be around today. Though to be fair it is a temporary (albeit long term) ban, which does allow for people to have the chance to grow out of whatever issues they have and come back as perhaps a better person.

If Ignotus had taken the very short temporary channel ban in stride, had not intentionally avoided the filter, had done as I suggested and contacted the coders (who did infact actually make changes to the filter) and just let it go, didn't intentionally get super confrontational and uncooperative, perhaps this never would have happened.

I did find in discussion that Ignotus is capable of being reasonable and even appealed to that a couple times. I am a channel owner of channel xp, the channel he was temporarily banned from above. For those of you who might not play Alter Aeon the important distinction between being a channel owner and just a general moderator is as an owner I have the ability, and the right, to ban people from that channel for any reason I see fit permanently. When I saw Ignotus harassing Morpheus I could have outright banned him. Instead I told him that I had seen previously he was capable of being reasonable, and asked that he please stop the spam before I was forced to feel the need to ban him permanently, and he did stop. However it was only temporary and happened again later, I assume when he thought I wasn't around (this may be bias on my part, perhaps it wasn't anything so sneaky and he just didn't care if I was around.)

I find it odd that I have to try to be the voice of reason on these issues when honestly I'm typically a pretty abraisive and blunt individual. It's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that players don't understand why their attitudes and behavior are damaging to themselves and people around them.

2017-11-19 04:45:33

@Lokar nope. I've always been an asshole, a psychopath, a totally fucking insane I don't even know, more level-headed and calm at certain times of my life than others. But that isn't my point. My point is that when the whole extreme deal with me started I still did what I needed to do to stay around to playing Alter because I still liked the game. However after various contradictory changes and an attitude about the game that I amongst others didn't particularly like I decided to no longer give 1, 2 or 3 fucks if I was banned. So I stopped holding back what so ever. I was relieved to be banned because I was addicted to Alter, and even though it no longer was good it was still a time killer for me that made me spend a tremendous amount of time and an even more tremendous amount of money on. But the thing is, I was addicted because of the monotony of it all, it was so simple to know what to do. I wasn't addicted for the reason I became addicted in the first place, which was a lot to do, much to learn and many areas to run. That was what drew me into Alter and kept me up for 3 days straight when I initially started playing.
Then after learning the game after long long times due to reasons which aren't really relevant here, I noticed how the game was progressively ... well ... being fucked up. That's the best way I can put it.

Honestly, I think Dentin may have a vision, but certainly not a plan. Otherwise you wouldn't have seen all those contradictory changes to begin with. Ugg I need to dig into changelogs. Maybe I should just so people can see.

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2017-11-19 05:27:27

@Lordlondon, you should honestly go to counciling. That mudmail you sent to that girl threatening her was.... Well.... In sane. If you really ment such a thing, you need help. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but lokar's comment about you wanting to torture a girl reminded me of this.

I am the blind jedi, I use the force to see. I am the only blind jedi.

2017-11-19 05:34:25

The spam thing is just silly, in my opinion. Hahahaha every so often is not that long. Now if you get a string of 10 or more ha's or if it's being done repeatedly, then that could probably be considered spam. It used to bug the living crap out of me when people would just spit out a string of ascii characters. Probably because I didn't have the ability to just gag it back then. There was ignore, but ignoring someone entirely for that seems overkill, depending on the circumstances. If someones' personally annoyed by a single hahahaha every so often, then they should just gag it on their side if possible instead of being ban happy. The fact that a filter exists to catch something so harmless is just... silly as I said. There was some talk on bovine about making that an end user filter from what I saw on the channel's page, and I support that.

2017-11-19 05:40:12 (edited by Lokar 2017-11-19 05:40:29)

@draq For the record the quote in question which ignotus got temporarily banned for had 11 repeats of 'hah' not 'ha' it was 'hah' intentionally as it bypassed the filter, the filters only function at the time being to truncate it down to only 3 repeats, so hahahahahaha becomes hahaha  with an asterisk to indicate it had been truncated. The current filter extended that to up to 9 repeats of two characters and removed the asterisk as the asterisk was apparently bothersome for some players.

2017-11-19 06:51:10

Ah. Gotcha. That makes more sense. Still think a global filter due to laughing is sort of silly, but it is what it is. Lol. Craziness.

2017-11-19 08:11:13 (edited by ogomez92 2017-11-19 08:12:35)

What's wrong with you guys, mush-z doesn't even track anything too specific.
the game just wants to know wat client you are logging in from. it does not ask for your location. it does not have your home address. only your client, the version of the client you are using.
So, all this oh oh oh oh I don't want to be tracked is just nonsense, sorry.

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2017-11-19 09:55:04

I'd like to address some of these posts.
@Post30 I'm sorry, and I'd really like to agree with you, but there are several reasons why I don't, and please don't take offense to what I'm about to say.
First of all, I've known Key for about a year now, and I know how he works. He doesn't complain about most things unless there's a reason behind it.
Second, you're not much better than the topic poster if you feel the need to come on here and reply. Nobody defending their game adequately would waste time they could be using to improve their game to argue back with someone who hates it.
Third, you're working for Google, isn't that enough to judge anyone on? Google is well known for spying and deception against their customers. I've seen way more articles on Google taking your info alone than I ever have with Microsoft or Apple. I'm sorry, but I don't trust the word of anyone who works for Google.
@Post13 I say the same to you, accept I don't know if you work for Google or not.
@Post36 You probably should take what Key says about games into consideration, remember that he's been involved in game development for a while himself.

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2017-11-19 13:53:39

ogomez92 wrote:

What's wrong with you guys, mush-z doesn't even track anything too specific.
the game just wants to know wat client you are logging in from. it does not ask for your location. it does not have your home address. only your client, the version of the client you are using.
So, all this oh oh oh oh I don't want to be tracked is just nonsense, sorry.

It shouldn't be a problem anymore anyway, I turned it off yesterday in the latest mush-z beta.

2017-11-19 19:55:35

regarding the mush-z tracking thing, it's not so much what's being tracked that's bothering everyone, it's the fact that said tracking was enabled silently and no one was told. It wasn't in the changelogs, mush-z users weren't informed in any way and had to find out through third parties. The tracking could have been sending something completely harmless and stupid like "I heart John Legend forev3r xoxoxoxoxo" and the fact of the matter is that people would still be right to be annoyed about it. It was done without user's permission and they were not informed. For that reason, the people that put that stuff in there in the first place don't get to shrug it off and go leave us alone gawd it wasn't that bad jees. Developers get caught with their pants down doing this sort of thing all the time and they rightly get roasted for it. Had the developers talked to the user base and been so here's what we're going to do about multiplaying, I'd be willing to bet the majority would have been completely on board. If they had put a line in the changelog about about this, the majority of people would have kept right on and not have bothered at all. Basically, if you hide code that's sending off information and don't tell your users and they then discover it, you absolutely should expect to take flak for it given that you weren't honest and up front about it in the first place.

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

2017-11-19 20:09:58

@Exodus - You also completely eliminate the effectiveness as soon as you tell people as they can do exactly what Athlon did, change the code. Most large games track you by your game client, Ip Address, and account, most large games don't bother to inform you. Again I could understand the outrage if this code could even come close to doing something malicious but it doesn't. This outrage seems mostly manufactured by people who already are upset as a reason to pile on more to be angry about. I frankly don't get the issue at all.

2017-11-19 20:40:24

I find it interesting that the strongest argument the other side seems to have is more or less along the lines of, "You really shouldn't listen to these people because they're all just a bunch of disgruntled, banned players with little else to talk about."  What makes it so interesting is that the banned players supposedly not worth listening to, at least two of them, as far as I can tell,  have come on here with well thought out posts and are not bothering to hide that they have done things that are inexcusable.  The possibility that AA's playerbase is even slightly being overlooked is not really worth considering though, or at least, shouldn't be, based on who's bringing it up.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-11-19 20:49:54

most games have an agreement that you have to agree to that says  among other things that they are going to use X, Y, and Z to identify you. You are perfectly free to disagree and not play. If they update and begin to use a new method of tracking, you have to agree to an amended agreement. Anyway... for the second time, it's not about what the code did it's about how it was introduced that's  the real meat of the thing.

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

2017-11-19 21:21:43 (edited by Lokar 2017-11-19 21:23:45)

@Nocturnus That is a completely unfair summary of the thread thus far. I personally have been arguing on the side of AA  and Dentin and have not once said to disregard the players for being disgruntled. I have taken the two major talking point posts and responded to each point those posts have made with my own personal observations and things I know to be facts, up to and including agreeing with some of the points on the oposing side. You're trying to behave as though the other side is brushing them off while being guilty of doing so yourself. The closest I got was in my discription of the player used to play the characters laeg, spectre etc. In whicb it wasnt 'disregard this player for he is disgruntled' it was 'this player claims he became an asshole because of the game and here is why thats wrong.'

I feel like Dentin has similarly tried to address points that were made with the exact same exception where he posted a link to the reason that player was removed.

2017-11-19 22:09:28

I expected that response.  At the end of the day, all of this is a bunch of subjective nonsense anyway.  if there were a serious interest in honestly developing/building the game up the overall morale of the AA community would have been taken into consideration in a much more professional manner.  Far too often I've seen admins, Morpheus being at the top of the list, who simply bash on players, some of them newbies who's primary language is not English, for asking legitimate questions.  Regardless, what solidifies it for me for the moment is post 28 as seen on the Case Law board, which takes an overall condescending tone against people who are seen as and I quote, "Jerks."  Whatever I may think of a member of this community, stooping to calling them anything is as far as I'm concerned, not acceptible from a moderator position; I would certainly not excuse it from an owner of any kind, and it pains me to see that others have so willingly.  The overall tone of the post is even less inviting, as it basically states that if you are for all intents and purposes known to have ties to any of these so-called toxic players you can kiss your AA account goodbye.  this means that I wouldn't be surprised to see myself no longer welcome on AA after having posted decisively in this topic, though I can honestly say I have no ties to keyIsFull or anyone else who was banned; in the end it'll be the nature of my posts that'll undo the effort my wife and I have put in over the past two years together, on top of the thousand or so dollars we've given collectively over the years to the game.
those are my greatest regrets at this point in time; decisions are being made and the outcry is being ignored.  In just the past year 3 major changes have come and been tampered with and the only conclusion the majority of the community is left to gleam from the way the devs act is because we say so; the excuses given are never what I would consider well thought out let alone realistic.  whether we're discussing blood bottling or the more recent subtraction to scroll scribing, people have been told, left ight and center to shut up and deal.  The end.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-11-19 22:33:35

@Exodus Thats fair it probably is in the terms of service, like most people I am guilty of almost never reading them. That being said they also usually have much harder to alter clients, not to mention only a single client. What would you have it say 'If you intend to break our rules pretty please use the mushz trigger/sound pack and dont alter the code so we may catch you.'?

The problem here is you think there is a moral issue with tracking the client while we believe there is no moral issue as the code doesn't do anything malicious. You think alerting people of the code so they can opt out solves the issue and we think being able to opt out completely makes the code entirely pointless anyways as the people trying to break the rules will always opt out if they are aware.

Im honestly convinced at this point that this is a 'we will have to agree to disagree' point asbwe both believe we have the morale high ground here.

2017-11-19 22:55:15

@Nocturnus While perhaps 'name calling' isn't appropriate Im not sure how else you would describe a person who goes out of their way to make someone elses experience worse. The player Teros has been known to illegally kill players on alter aeonx as well as other pretty scummy activity. The player Ignotus took it upon himself to harass morpheus everytime he spoke.

I myself have been a jerk at times (many times in fact). If you behave like a jerk you probably shouldnt be super shocked if you are called out as one. Im personally of the belief that 'jerk' is puting it mildly based on the actions of the individuals in question.

2017-11-19 23:03:19

Lokar wrote:

The player Ignotus
took it upon himself to harass morpheus everytime he spoke.

This is an outright lie. I encourage someone to pull logs from altkeeper, combine channel logs from different sources or get non-biased sources together to confirm this. I antagonized Morpheus, but not "every time he spoke
," and not persistently. If anything, the commentary on my part lasted a week at most. Please stop exagerating.

2017-11-19 23:10:23 (edited by Lokar 2017-11-19 23:12:28)

Not an outright lie at all unless you condider your post earlier where you originally quoted me without proper context to be an outright lie as well. To be fair I wouldnt expect people to ever believe I ment you sat on the mud 24/7 waiting for him to speak to harass him. Given the context of the conversation Im pretty sure its understood that it was ment to speak only on the events that lead up to your banning which I already acknowledged in a previous post may have fit your time table better. There is no lie here, you did in fact go out of your way to tell morpheus to stop spamming every time he spoke and you saw it.  I didnt mention a specific time table because that time table has already been discussed multiple times and I assumed it was established.

2017-11-19 23:16:23

Like I said, I encourage you to gather non-biased sources to confirm this. You're biased towards Dentin and Alter Aeon, I'm biased towards myself. Neither of us are qualified to give definitive answers on this.

I have many better things to do than to sit waiting for a channel send from Morpheus and respond to it with something trolly. This isn't to say I didn't do that, because I did, but it wasn't "every time." SMH

2017-11-19 23:20:30

For the record Lokar took something I said and turned the words around on me.
To sum up for idiots, I stopped giving two fucks about my continued presence on the game due to changes I felt were negative for my experience.

Also @Ignotus haha, I'm with you there. Morpheus is an asshole and oughta be treated as such. Not to say that I wasn't, but I got what I deserved.

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2017-11-19 23:21:05

Lokar wrote:

The problem here is you think there is a moral issue with tracking the client while we believe there is no moral issue as the code doesn't do anything malicious.

It's more appropriate to say that the code doesn't do anything, not that it doesn't do anything malicious.

As in literally, it doesn't do anything.  Even when it was enabled in the client (it's gone now), it just reported to the server which then threw it away.

But let's not let that stop a good flamewar.

2017-11-19 23:26:24

I think it's time to move along and discuss some of the other points addressed by the original poster and replies. This argument has been wringed out. Let's move on to the part of being told to suck it up because of Dentins greater vision.
You know some muds I've played that hadn't gone completely over the head with self-assurance actually collected their regular or experienced player base to discuss their experiences while playing and come up with future directions for the mud to make it a positive and enjoyable experience for everyone.

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2017-11-19 23:57:12

@Nocturnus Remember, Dentin doesn't give a damn about your money, because the money he earns from Google to stock people all over the internet is way more than enough to keep him a float.
@Dentin The problem here isn't about the mush-z tracking, the problem is that a lot of people think your an asshole. You should probably do something quickly to show people you actually care, because as of right now you're not convincing me. Either do that or hand the code over to someone who gives a damn.
@Lokar What's your problem with Key and Ignotus? You do nothing in your posts except bash them. Then again I'd expect that from the teachers pet.

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