2017-11-17 09:45:23 (edited by keyIsFull 2017-11-17 09:54:54)

To those who play or are thinking about playing Alter Aeon, the following information concerns all of those who are interested in the game and its future.
To the administrators of Alter Aeon: this information is not meant to be an attack on the game or a condemnation of the staff, but should be used as a resource to mollify possible detractors of your game and understand their grievances.
Note: I will do my very best to keep the discussion totally factual, except in paragraphs labeled "My Opinion", which will contain my thoughts on the matter. You do not have to agree with my opinions, but the facts are undeniable and should not be ignored.
The following topics will be discussed:

  1. Computer tracking in mush-Z, and its future

  2. Current grievances that players feel are unheeded by the administration

  3. Dentin's Response to feedback and negativity

Computer Tracking in Mush-Z

If I were to setup a poll asking how many viewers use Mush-z as their primary means of playing Alter Aeon, I suspect that the percentage would be above 90%. If you do, open the AlterAeon.xml plugin, and search for the following text:
  ESend("lecho _mushz " .. GetVariable("version") .. " " ..
This is around line 21028 in my copy of the xml. I have not updated to the latest beta so it might be a few lines off in the latest version. But anyway, you will see that it makes reference to something called an iuid. The iuid is generated when you first create a character on Alter Aeon and identifies your computer to the server. If you log on a different character or use a different IP address, therefore, the server will still know it is you thanks to this IUID.

My Opinion: This in itself is not a problem, as multiplaying is against the rules. However, Mush-Z users received no information about the IUID when it was added sometime in 2013. The fact that the mush-Z developers made an effort to hide that information constitutes spyware.

How to get rid of it: Luckily for you, there is no reason that you need to be spied on like this. You can counter the espionage by simply removing that entire line of text from your xml.
 
A number of security-minded users have known about the IUID in the past, but it was only recently brought to the public's attention when an innocent player was booted and frozen from the game without warning because he was suspected to be another player who had been recently banned. As you can see by the following log, Dentin assumed that just because someone had compromised the validity of the iuid, it was the same player, when all this innocent person wanted to do was to avoid unsolicited tracking.

Alter Aeon Log wrote:

(12 minutes ago) [bovine] Alixandria: hrm, how come riddle got frozen out of curiosity?
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Shryth: huh, he did?
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Alixandria: yeah
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Dentin: he's teros
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Alixandria: no...he isn't
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Bodmall: lol he's not
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Alixandria: I know both of them, and they are not the same person
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Shryth: cause far as I know he is not
(11 minutes ago) [bovine] Rhorae: yeahI've never known riddle to be teros
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: What makes you think he's teros?
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Soth: the fact that riddle exists still indicates that it is known that he isn't teros. Seems that way to me that is.
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: I have no doubt that at one point he was riddle, but for riddle to not log in for multiple months, then suddenly start logging in from a proxy with teros' client after teros gets banned?  I was willing to wait and see a couple days ago, but I think I'm past that
//Comment: Riddle has been logging in to alter almost every day for the past several months and was not using a proxy
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Alixandria: he really, really isn't teros
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: From teros's client?
(9 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: I hope you aren't going off of the mush-z ID
(8 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: yeah, teros' client has a broken signature in it that's unique to him and riddles client has the same brokenness
(8 minutes ago)  [bovine] Alixandria: I know riddle personally, in rl and through voice chatting. this is riddle, not teros.
(8 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: so either way there's something super fishy going on here
(6 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: You um. DO know that a good number of people know about the ID and choose to not use a unique one right?
(6 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: yes
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: Then I don't understand how you use that as a justification for freezing lol
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: but like I've said, I've only ever seen this flavor of it in teros' client.  How did riddle contact you guys?  offline?
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Soth: I'd kinda chill on this matter and leave it to the reigning champ on Alter Aeon security.
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: Let me ask him how he knew about the ID
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: I've been watching him for days, everything I've seen leads me to believe it's teros.  If you guys are convinced that he's not, I'm willing to accept that, but I want to know why
(5 minutes ago)  [bovine] Bodmall: some of us communicate with him off the mud.  he logs onto the Alter TT server pretty regularly under the username Alex.
(4 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dernan: Apparently he knew about it before athlon / teros.
(3 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: ok, he's been unfrozen
(1 minutes ago)  [bovine] Dentin: tell him that if he's going to not send a uuid, then he should just remove it instead of sending whatever mess is currently there.  What they're currently doing sticks out like a sore thumb
  (10 seconds ago) [bovine] Dernan: It isn't a secret only athlon knew about
(9 seconds ago)  [bovine] Dentin: one of them fucked up the uuid changes and now they both have it
(7 seconds ago)  [bovine] Bodmall: I think it's more that a person wouldn't want their client to be identifyable.

N.B.: Dentin continues to  not admit outright that freezing Riddle was a mistake; he is instead placing much of the blame on Riddle for countering the spyware.

My Opinion: Dentin mentions that it would have been better had Riddle not sent out anything.  I was afraid that omitting the information would have changed the way Alter Aeon responded to the client, since the message identifies the character as a Mush-Z user in addition to identifying their computer. Riddle simply copied my changed code.

The Future of Mush-Z

A number of Mush-Z's most reliable developers, including Slej and Dernan, will no longer work on it because of the change in game atmosphere. In Dentin's words, they "all did a pretty good job with the code and made it better than when they started". Their loss will mean a significant slowdown in new developments for Mush-Z. Dentin controls the git server where the code is stored as well as the updater that allows you to get soundpack updates. In the past, he has also asked  Weyoun, the chief developer, if Draak and Shadowfax may be allowed to work on coding Mush-Z. Weyoun has always refused the assistance.

My opinion: Now that Weyoun has stepped down, Draak and Shadowfax will probably be granted access to the git server. Along with Kurek, they may continue releasing updates to Mush-Z. However, all three of them have a solid reputation for sloppy  coding. Also, with two of the three coders firmly affiliated with Dentin and many of the more savvy users leaving, it will be much easier to slip other hidden bits of code, such as the afformentioned computer identifier, into future Mush-Z updates. Once you have secured your Mush-Z,  be  wary of future updates as they may compromise your efforts.

Dentin and change

As Alter Aeon continues to evolve, so does Dentin. Sweeping mechanical changes to Alter Aeon have always been met with mixed responses, but in the majority of cases, players realize that they can continue to play and enjoy the game after a while. Unfortunately, Dentin's changes within the last twelve months have been received with excessive disgruntlement by many. A majority of these changes have hit high-level players extremely hard. When various high-level players complain over an extended period of time, Dentin does not respond, brushes them off, or reminds them that his knowledge of the various systems in the game far exceeds theirs.

My Opinion: In addition to the above, proponents of the changes seem to do their best to suppress   those who complain through heckling, or drown them out with praise to counter it. It is, of course, much more difficult to control those people. Some of Dentin's more sinical opponents posit that he is making changes to satisfy those who make him the most money, but he is quick to point out that Alter Aeon will always be playable for free, that he has banned players who have spent thousands of US dollars on the game, and that he makes fifty times more money working at Google than he ever has on Alter Aeon. I do not doubt any of this, but it is undeniable that he is currently far more invested in his employment at Google than his administration of Alter Aeon.

Community Opinion: What they are complaining about]

What exactly are the complaints that people feel go ignored when voicing? The following discussion will be a bit more technical and number-based than the rest of the post, and the chosen numbers are merely approximations to ease calculations.

One thing that all the players agree on is the excellence of the newbie experience. From the very beginning, newbies are taught how to play the game through carefully designed, class-specific tutorials. Well-written and multifaceted quest chains guide newbies through the newbie islands, pointing them to powerful equipment and keeping them engaged in the various interlinked stories of the islands. Character strengthening comes easily and without fuss, with quest completion and consistent experience for mob kills easily railroading them to their next level with a minimum of grinding or extra efort. The new Fairyland areas are a great example of this, as they patched up a significant stall point at level 23 that Dentin identified as a stumbling block for newbies.
But unfortunately, this experience comes to an unexpected halt for most people, when the feeling of constant progress begins to ebb to almost nothing. Around the end of 2016, Dentin removed the high limit on experience costs for levels, which was originally capped at 1.8 billion. For the sake of example, imagine that you get 270000 xp per mob kill and 330000 xp for performing various skills or spells to kill it, which are both fairly realistic numbers. For each mob killed, you therefore gain 600000 exp, and in order to get a level costing 1.8 billion exp, you must kill 3000 mobs. In an efficient group, one can run about 600000 exp per minute, which means that even if you were to group for all your exp, it would take 1.8 billion divided by 600000 divided by 60 hours= 50 hours of killing to run this experience. Daily gifts and other automatic xp rewards only change this number by a small amount.
After the change, level cost limits no longer cap at 1.8 billion and rise very steeply. For example, leveling your third class from 33 to 34 costs 3.1 billion, from 34 to 35 is another 4.3 billion, from 35 to 36 costs 6 billion, and to reach level 37, the maximum available, is 8.2 billion. Together, this adds up to 21.6 billion experience as compared to 7.2 billion (1.8 billion times 4) under the old system. Dentin did help the problem marginally by increasing experience caps to 500000, but it is not nearly enough, as doubling the xp caps does not help matters when level costs are already quadrupled or more.
As an even starker calculation, to get your fourth class from 36 to 37 alone costs a whopping 43 billion experience. Imagine that you are gaining 1.2 million experience per minute. It will still take you 597 hours to gain that one level, or almost 10 months of running for two hours per day, seven days per week. Player morale was devastated when they saw those high level costs and never recovered. Dentin has confirmed several times that he will not be doing anything to alleviate the level costs, because he does not want to use code workarounds, and his vision for the game's future is much farther than what any of the players could ever imagine.
A related problem is experience consistency. Thanks to complex game balance systems that lower experience on frequently-killed monsters, and unreliable information about what areas have been hit the hardest by these systems, players have  complained that they have difficulties finding places to efficiently gain experience in groups at the higher end. With the exponential increase in level costs, this concern is a legitimate one. Though Dentin has lowered the effects of his game balance systems, players still complain, although a bit less, about it. It pales in comparison to the discontent about level costs. After all, consistent experience is not going to reduce the ten-month estimate to run 43 billion experience by much.

Don't Complain too loudly

Dentin also began to crack down on "toxic behavior and negativity" on Alter Aeon. His post on the Case Law Board is copied below:

Board Post by Dentin wrote:

The recent situation with Teros has had me thinking long and hard about social curation, jerks, and toxic players.  Some of the things I've read and which may provide interesting background are:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gar … _pacifism/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/5f7/elitist_jer … pt_garden/
http://paulgraham.com/ds.html
(The last one will eventually make sense.)  That said, these are nowhere near all of the resources I've looked at. More specifically, I've been trying to come to terms with how the game should handle people who don't play and serve only to bring drama and discontent into the game.  I have decided that the correct action is for me to take responsibility for it and aggressively kick them off the game.  This is a pretty dramatic change from my historical position.
In the beginning, 20+ years ago, I had two primary reasons for wanting relatively free and unrestricted speech.  The first was the ostensibly noble goal that people should be allowed to talk about whatever they want, because "free speech".  I no longer believe that.  There are  many topics which simply should be discussed Somewhere Else, whether because they are morally reprehensible, illegal, or just plain because it hurts the game to allow it.
The second reason I had for wanting relatively free speech was far more mundane:  I didn't want to have to manually deal with it.  Manually curating the playerbase to keep track of jerks, filter for stupidity, and do  social management is irritating and time consuming.  Writing up posts like this is a pain in the ass.  And a human has to do it, because social management Doesn't Scale (see the Paul Graham essay linked above.) But one of the critial points of the Paul Graham essay is that when you're small, doing things that Don't Scale is often the correct answer.  Even at our largest, if we were to grow a factor of ten, we're still small enough for one person to handle this.  Not having automation isn't really an excuse.  I scale well enough here.
With all this in mind, I have updated the rules to include a general 'negative contributor' clause under 'social interaction' [rule 5.11].  In short, this is a blanket rule can be used to ban players that log in, but actively make the game worse for their presence in the eyes of the admin. Expect it to be used.

My Opinion: It is important to keep a positive game atmosphere, and banning Teros from the game was overall a good decision, as his net contribution to the game and community was not positive. However, the end of the post, where Dentin mentions rule 5.11, is far more concerning. He admits that the new legislation  is a blanket rule that allows him to ban players who "actively make the game worse ... in the eyes of the admin". In short, Dentin can now use this rule to ban anyone he wants. That in itself is not bad, but the following information, where he takes advantage of the rule, is.

Soon after writing this post and penning the new rule, Dentin  banned another player, Ignotus, from the game. The post explaining the ban is below:

Board Post by Dentin wrote:

Date:    2017 Nov 11 06:38
From:    dentin
Subject: Ignotus - game ban
(See previous post for context.)
After spending far too much time looking through his personal log, I've decided that Ignotus is one such player.  He only logs in to chat, and literally hasn't gained a level in a month.  He's constantly negative about the game, spreads discontent, and continues to communicate with Teros via out of band channels.  He fights with the builders, recently had his moderator flag removed due to abuse, and has explicitly stated that once his 'Chatmud' is done he and all the other players he can find will leave AA and go there. 
With this in mind, I think it best that he go to his Chatmud sooner, rather than later.  This post aims to help that process along. Ignotus and his bot Donald have been banned for three years.
-dentin

My opinion: This post does not mention when or how Ignotus was banned. He was asleep and idle on the game when the ban occurred, and got no warning by Dentin. Most of the reasons Dentin wrote to justify the ban, when examined carefully, are suspect:

  • "Only logs in to chat"/"literally hasn't gained a level in a month": Many other players log in just to chat, and have not gained a level in far longer than a month

  • "Constantly negative about the game"/"spreads discontent": Ignotus's negativity about the game was only on tells and private channels with other discontent players who only logged into chat and hadn't leveled in a month or more. Had he expressed his discontent or negativity on public channels, it might  be a legitimate reason.

  • "Communicates with Teros via out of band channels": I am not sure why Dentin included this, but he means that Ignotus communicates with the banned player Teros on other media besides Alter Aeon. This should not be a reason to ban a player. If that is grounds to ban people, Anyone with an Alter Aeon character who replies to Lord Lundin's forum posts on Audiogames.net  risks being banned for that reason as well. Dentin, in his post about banning Teros, stated that anyone who wants to communicate with Teros must do it off the game.

  • "explicitly stated that once his 'Chatmud' is done he and all the other players he can find will leave AA and go there": Ignotus claims that he never said anything like this anywhere. He did give status updates about Chat Mud on private channels, and many people sent him tells asking him to finish working on it, but he never said anywhere that he would convince people to leave Alter Aeon for it.

This leaves fighting with builders and having his moderator flag removed. That he had the moderator flag removed is simply another punishment, not a reason for this one. Details are unclear concerning whether he fought with builders or not, but Dentin never gave him a chance to explain himself, instead deciding to do it without warning when he was asleep. Similarly, Riddle was kicked off the game because he had circumvented the spyware without a warning. In short, Dentin used this new rule to justify banning people without warning, without giving them a chance to defend themselves.

My final Opinion

As a person who has loyally played Alter Aeon for six plus years, it pains me to see these changes and their cumulative effects. Other users do not condone the changes as well, and have stopped logging into the game in protest. And this is why. It is unethical to add hidden tracking code to users who thought they were simply getting a handy soundpack. It is unfair to ban people without letting them defend themselves, or banning them early without a notification. It is unwise to spurn so many players so cavalierly by ignoring what they have to say and doing nothing against those who heckle and shout them down when they give feedback.
    I care deeply about the game, and even though I was banned from it (I am the player Teros), the hours I spent playing the game were very enjoyable ones overall. I consider it a disservice to game admins and any current or potential players if this information is not publicized, and I hope that it will result in change that betters the game.  If this information concerns you, post below. Get the attention of the administration so they realize that these grievances are real and universal. Tell fellow Alter Aeon players on social media to post their concerns here or on the Alter Aeon boards.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-11-17 10:05:01

I'm sort of indifferent to all of the changes that have been going on in Alter, because I'm pretty much a player who just logs in to chat. Regardless, you've written a very well written and thought out post, and I"m hoping this thread will lead to some interesting discussion.

2017-11-17 11:44:58

I was talking about a lot of this to someone the other day, particularly the xp changes. Alter was a big part of my life for years both from an in and out of game perspective. I have a lot to owe to it, some of my best memories were forged on that game. I've met some awesome people, which probably helped me stay around for as long as I did. In fairness I'd been drifting on and off that mud for a year or two before all these changes really started to hit, but it's sad never the less to see something dear to me go the way it has.

2017-11-17 13:12:55

This is really sad.Alter Aeon has always been a home to me, and that was why I decided to start mush-z (I am Kurek).

While it is true that some of my coding decisions in the past in this project have been a bit sloppy (friend add kurek on friend creation, etc) they were removed when some more control was put into this. anyway, given the way things are, I'm going to refrain from working on mush-z until all of this is sorted out.
I am sad to see this go the way it's gone, yes, the new additions, crafting, eq make the game nice, but all the social drama is kind of overwelming.

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2017-11-17 14:55:00

Maybe it's just early days, but the crafting from the little I've played with it doesn't seem to do very much in the way of being useful?

2017-11-17 17:15:27

I can't say I've played AA much, I find it too linear, a bit boring, and so on, that being said, it does have a great sound pack in MUSHz. It sounds like this admin Dentin, who I think is the founder / original creator is kind of turning into a grumpy grandpa, and the message I'm seeing here is akin to saying get off my lawn. I can see where negativity can cause problems in excess, I can also see where it can be very annoying / disinspiring / not fun for developers to see toxic comments all the time. I do think that devs do need to take criticism though, if its delivered in a constructive manner. Also, what makes a game great is when the devs are willing to listen to the community, but not bend so far as to compromise their vision. Since this doesn't really affect me, since I'm not a player I'll leave it here, but it doesn't bode well.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2017-11-17 17:44:39 (edited by Ethin 2017-11-17 17:45:03)

I myself have played alter aeon for about 7 years now (since 2010 or so) (I'm Draeand and a few other different alts on there). Now I rarely ever go on there -- I've mostly gotten board of it -- but to see a game that I've loved for so long go down like this is just saddening. I've met a lot of great people on there; hell, I even worked with Dernan on a project he was working with (socketwrap, https://github.com/oliver2213/socketwrap). I've never contributed to the mushz soundpack, but have still enjoyed the game when I've played it. I guess that old saying does hold true: alas, all good things must come to an end...

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2017-11-17 17:52:19

I'm of the view that at the end of the day it's Denton's game, and if he makes choices that looses player's, it's still his game. If Aprone suddenly decided to shut down Swamp today, it would be his right, just as a point of comparison mind you. This is obviously the extreme version of what could happen, but i wouldn't campaign against somebody just because they changed the rules of a project that they created. I'd either put up with changes, or silently stop playing.

2017-11-17 17:57:20

Alter Aeon was my very first MUD, and my favorite for many years. Due to my interest in Miriani, I stopped coming around as often as I once did. Due to recent changes, however, I don't come around anymore. I do keep an eye on changes and board eight through the RSS feed though, because I do still care about the game.

The first thing I can think of that threw me off was the changes to cleric. My character was built as a mage/cleric, so my primary stats were intelligence and wisdom. This was back when charisma wasn't worth much except for very specific circumstances and cleric used intelligence instead of charisma, so I never got around to maxing charisma. So, in order to be an effective cleric again, I would need to run practices to raise charisma. Not something I want to do, thanks. Why should I have to work extra hard to reobtain something I already had?

Another thing that threw me off was the alignment changes. Anti-evil and anti-good flagged equipment now consume your alignment. My primary set of equipment has quite a bit of anti-evil equipment, which I suspect would make it that much harder to keep my good alignment without grinding the holy heck out of evil mobs.

Finally, this level change. I don't really understand Dentin's decision to make it near impossible to obtain max level. All it seems to be doing is driving older people off. I can't say what new people who don't know any better think. It sure doesn't make me want to come back, especially if I have to level convert, which is sort of sad.

What we all need to remember is that it's Dentin's game. He can do whatever he wants with it, and the players don't have any intrinsic right to be there. We can either stay around and deal with the changes, or we can leave. I don't think any amount of protesting is going to help in this case. Dentin seems to have his mind set on what he's doing, and he's only going to change his mind if things don't turn out the way he wants. I say just let him do what he's going to do and let the data he collects speak for itself.

2017-11-17 18:02:53

In my opinion, dentin is OK. really OK.

The disturbing people is really annoying, specially if them have a good speetch that can move people with their opinion.
This make a good place in a complete chaos zone, with a lot of problems.
Respecting the EXP issue... Guy, is obvious that in the future, the builders plans build  more rooms with higuer caps or strong monster, to get this excessive  xp amounts. if the game have these ridiculous exp numbers, is because the  admin, don't want that the players get these levels for now.

And respecting the tracking code, witch problems have you with that?
microsoft tracks your pc. google tracks your pc, facebook track your pc, the majority of online games tracks your pc only with connect to these services, you:
1. are accepting their tracking rules and policies, including tracking terms
2. and so, what do you want to hide? do you sell drugs, have a secret nuclear weapon code in your pc or something similar?

He who does nothing fears nothing. 

Respecting that, is correct that denting have to:
1. add to the policies of the mush_z or the mud itself, that are a tracking code on taht
2. if you negate to be tracked, you have to get out of the game.

Is very simple.

2017-11-17 18:21:47

@10, you're a bit warped dude, sorry to say, but we can't do much about the big companies data mining us, but we can do something about this, and should if we value privacy, which  I do. That whole, if you're honest, you have nothing to hide isn't a valid argument in the privacy space. If you don't mind your information being collected, that's fine for you, but to say none of us should do anything to stop it, that's... I can't even conceive of how you could say that.

Anyway, yes, it is his game, and I don't think a protest will really accomplsih anything as he seems set in the course of action he wants to take. Just stop playing if you don't agree with the changes, and when his daily average jumps from like what, I don't even know, 50 to 10, he'll get the picture.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2017-11-17 18:22:18

@drak, you can spend 200 credits on a stat swap that will let you swap two stat values, which will make this problem in particular easier to deal with.

@sandslash, other companies like Microsoft and Apple allow you to opt out of tracking. In windows 10 there is an entire privacy options section in the Settings app for this purpose. they told users about what tracking code they had put into their products.

In addition, monster xp is not up to the builders at all. It is totally controlled by Dentin.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-11-17 19:16:08

It should go without saying, but obviously you should take the word of someone who has been ejected from a game about that game not with a grain of salt, but with a whole bucket of it.

Dentin allowed Teros/Athlon to play Alter Aeon despite him repeatedly breaking the rules.  You can see for yourself on our case law board here: http://alteraeon.com:8080/board/1392

Yet despite those offences, and many more that were not documented, we still let Teros have builder under my supervision, hoping to turn his game knowledge for good.  How intolerant we must be!

It turns out he was a terrible and lazy builder.  He didn't finish not even one project, despite repeatedly assuring me that he would.  He demanded in-game rewards for his lackluster building efforts, which is highly inappropriate.  Apparently he couldn't be bothered to write descriptions for the things he built and wrote a script to do it for him, so everything sounded like it was being described by a robot.  And when that proved to be too onerous, he demanded that I make his friend a builder too so she could write descriptions for him.

Most people know about the MUSH-Z uuids and don't care.  It's not a secret and never has been.  I have the utmost respect for the developers of MUSH-Z and they know what they're doing.

Alter Aeon is a game.  You play it to have fun, and players generally get cut a lot of slack, even when they screw up and break the rules.  Teros got a fair shake.  To pretend otherwise is simply being dishonest.  I've played it for 22 years and still love it!

2017-11-17 19:24:00 (edited by keyIsFull 2017-11-17 20:43:19)

Shadowfax, everyone who has read my post understands that I have been banned from the game; I have nothing to hide. I will admit that I have disobeyed rules in the past, did not finish my building project, and may have made some unreasonable requests in regards to that project. None of this has anything at all to do with the original post, so I ask that you pleaes stay on topic and do not derail this into another battle of insults like what many of the Redspot topics have become. We are more mature than that, are we not?
P.S.: It seems that most people actually did not know about the mush-Z Iuid system until this post brought it to their attention.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-11-17 19:34:09

I've always been quite a troll, mean, top asshole, blah blah blah. But there was a point at which I said fuck it I no longer care if I get banned because Dentin's changes does not make a brighter future.
I've read plenty of excellent articles about good game design and Dentin simply doesn't give a shit. He's stuck in his ways. I'll provide some if I feel it appropriate in future posts.

I spent hours on bovine arguing about game mechanics and submitted both positive feedback if there were any, as well as things I found problematic. Dentin did not listen to anyone. Only the statistics he chose to look at himself. I could go on, and on, and on but frankly it's been such a long time I don't remember half of the issues and neither do I want to.

I played the characters Athlon (bought from KeyIsFull when I wanted a necro blaster with insane gear), Spectre (my necro warrior I made just to see how fast I could reach total 121 under the old top 4 system), and Laeg (bought from I don't even know anymore) as well as plenty of mid to high level characters bought or self-made in the passed.

A thumbs up to Key for his excellent informative post.

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2017-11-17 20:12:17

I've stopped playing alter around may or april, and now I don't think i'll be playing again. I've logged in a few times since then to read chat messages and board posts and things, but now that I know about that tracking thing in mush-z, and that dentin seems to ban players who don't have it, there's really no reason for me to log in again, as I don't wanna be tracked. I also found that passed level 18 or 19 there wasn't much in the wa of areas for grinding, and quests weren't really my thing. I won't get into the social drama, but I found many of the players to be rather trollish, and dentin was always blunt when issues or game suggestions were discussed.

I am the blind jedi, I use the force to see. I am the only blind jedi.

2017-11-17 20:18:21

@16: Dentin is not banning you for not having it. The player in question was frozen because he used the same bit of code as Teros/keyIsFull, who just had been banned, indicating that they were the same person. Said player also got unfrozen when it was clear that it wasn't the case.

To see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4

2017-11-17 20:58:31 (edited by Loxias 2017-11-17 21:03:01)

I remember a time, a good 7 or 8 years ago by now I think, when I saw Dentin basically say something to the effect of "I'm not even enjoying playing my own game." He had decided to play the newly created newbie islands to see what the experience was like, after not having played the game for a while. It was after this time we got things such as continuous regen in place of on-tick regen, a far more polished newbie experience, levelling without having to consult a trainer, being restored to full health upon levelling, and plenty of other quality of life changes. I don't think anybody will argue with me when I say that the game improved a lot in this time.

In terms of the high level experience, I think something like this is happening again. Dentin rarely if ever plays his own game. He has a full time job, a girlfriend, and has to manage the game, plus whatever personal hobbies he may have, so I don't fault him for this. But I do think it is not hitting him as hard as it otherwise would how frustrating things can be for high levels at times. He has statistics which enables him to track many things, such as how much exp is being gained, where it is coming from, how often areas are visited, etc. But statistics cannot track player feelings and emotions. Only engaging with the player base or playing your game alongside them can do that.

This leads to rifts in communication between him and the players where both sides feel like they are not being understood. Some players are better at expressing it than others, and unfortunately the toxic ones are often louder and more visible, which makes Dentin not want to have a discussion.

This frustration leads to a lack of desire to communicate, which is part of why Dentin doesn't always share his long term goals, to explain why changes such as these are happening. So all players see is their level costs skyrocketing and in some cases players being forced to lose levels. It's pretty natural to be upset over something like this when you aren't blessed with the bigger picture.

All that is to say I understand why Teros and others are frustrated. I am to an extent as well, although I know Dentin has goals that are going to take time to reach, and understand that things are supposed to be better once we get there. I do hope that cracking down on troublesome behavior will help us get there, as Dentin will no longer be distracted and discouraged by seeing it every day.

My advice to those who are discontent is to try to think of how you'd want to be approached in this situation, and try to be receptive when you talk to Dentin. If you feel you've tried that and he's not listening, that's fair. It means you don't see things from the same viewpoint. If you're no longer enjoying the game and feel like you aren't being listened to, leave for a while. Don't stick around for no better reason than to sarcastically spread your negativity around, creating an us vs them environment where you're either against Dentin or labelled as a lacky. That helps no one, especially not the game.

I have spent many an enjoyable afternoon or evening playing this game, or else talking with the great friends I've made on here. We just released a set of 10 areas of which I was pretty much the primary director. Therefore I want to see this game continue to grow and improve. It can't do that if players are going to spread their negativity. It also can't do that if huge, game-altering changes aren't understood by the player base.

2017-11-17 21:15:27 (edited by keyIsFull 2017-11-17 21:17:54)

+1 to that loxias. My antagonizing of Dentin did nothing to help the game, so hopefully with that gone, he might actually begin playing a character.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
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2017-11-17 22:22:30

for my part, I'm simply going to use this post to say that this mindset that seems to exist amongst free game devs and those who kiss up to them, stating that playerbases have no right to voice their oppinion because the game is a privilege and not a right, where players who have honest concerns and choose to speak about them because it involves not only their personal wishes but those of the overall community as well... I humbly submit that if you code something and people find ways to exploit it before you release it the error lies with the way you coded it, and punishing everyone else for it hardly makes any sense.  That's where the wrong truly lies.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-11-17 23:16:18

@Key:
I'm 100% with you that including tracking of players by installation without consent is wrong. The issue has been discussed several times (including earlier today), and solutions are apparently on the table to deal with it.
I would, however, point out that you yourself were a mush-z developer both while and after the system was introduced, so its not very fair of you to point the finger at "them" without acknowledging your own roll in the situation.

2017-11-18 00:03:08 (edited by keyIsFull 2017-11-18 00:05:58)

While I was a mush-z developer back in 2012-2014, I had no idea that it contained tracking code. I was never consulted about whether or not it should be added, nor did I read about it in the changelogs, nor was it mentioned on zt. The xml file itself is 600 kb, and over 25000 lines, and it is ridiculous to think that I would read through all of it, or even if I had somehow done that, understand exactly what every line of code was supposed to do.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-11-18 01:37:18

About these newbie class tutorials: I've never played them. How far into the Islands does it take you? With some quests, I notice that quests nearby with quest info doesn't give any description or hints, or sometimes the hints are pretty vague.
If I were to login with my level 19 primary Necromancer or my primary mid-20s warrior, can I play through the class tutorials from there?
Curious how they work, as I think a guided journey through those islands has a unique perspective I've never thought of.

2017-11-18 01:52:56 (edited by keyIsFull 2017-11-18 01:55:07)

Yes, the quests usually start in cities or towns or other settlements. It's a good idea to start at the beginning though, as most of the quests do have dependencies that you need to finish before you can o on to the next ones, I'd start in Vemarken and go from there even though it's a level 5 to 10 area to make sure you get everything. The quest lines really do take you almost everywhere there is to  go on the islands. Regarding your question about class tutorials, those are for brand new players. You can create another character and play through the tutorial and it will show you some of your class's basic abilities and outfit you with equipment, then drop you at the beginning of the new player quest.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-11-18 04:42:40

@keyIsFull, Yes. I'm aware of the stat swap option. If I did that though, it would require me to dump practices into a stat just to get it back to where I had it before. I'm also aware that Dentin gradually raised the charisma requirement on cleric spells, so it wasn't like things were just switched over right away. It doesn't make it any less annoying to me personally though. I really don't want to spend hours grinding a stat just to be able to play a character I've had since 2002 effectively again. Buying practices with credits is also an option, but then I'm paying to be able to play that character effectively again. Right now I really don't want to spend hours grinding practices, and as much as i'd love to donate to help the game stay up, I don't want to spend a ton of money on credits just to raise a stat in order to play effectively either. It's nothing against Dentin or the game. I just don't want to deal with it. Maybe someday.