2017-10-19 07:12:49

I use both, the speech of a screenreader and Braille. When I play games, especially muds, I use speech. It is just easier, and you can react quicker. When it comes to reading books however, I would always read them in Braille. For me, it is easier that way, to grab all the words, instead of having to listen to the voice of my screenreader for hours.
Also, especially, when it comes to reading novels, it is much more fun, to read them on my own. A screenreader will never be able to deliver the right atmosphere, the writer had in mind.
Most of my friends prefer, having their books read to htem by their screenreaders. That always amazed me, since I just can't imagine, how they can pay atention to the same, monotonous voice all the time.
Of course, there are still propper audiobooks. And while the range of titles is already very, very big these days, not everything is available as an audiobook.
I think, the biggest problem with Braille, beginning to lose it's meaning is the fact, that most blind people can't afford the propper technology. I really hope, this will change in the future. Knowing, how to read and write is important. And saying, that blind readers are slower than sighted people, is not true. At least not in general. I knew someone once, who could read as fast as sighted people.

2017-10-19 07:33:18

Skimming and scanning is possible with braille if you are good enough at it. I'm also a braille fan. I think if braille dies completely, we are going to be in one sad mess of a situation... if speech were to die tomorrow, half the people who talk about speech being all they need would be up s**t creak without anywhere to go. And braille does, whatever people might think, improve spelling... you learn contractions for a reason, but any decent teacher will teach you what those contractions signify so you can always read those words in their entirety. Not only does it improve spelling, but braille shows good formatting, spacing and punctuation that speech can't come close to demonstrating. Punctuation maybe, but only if you are willing to listen to it read out every single period and comma. Speech lets you listen to a lot of information, but it doesn't let you retain it or give you the time to process it that braille would.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 14:25:46 (edited by Ghost 2017-10-19 14:26:32)

hi,
The player, you are making a generalisation based on an extreme case. Just because your friend allegedly could read as fast  as a sighted person does not necesarily mean that all, or even most of braille readers can.
Dragomier, while you may read 240 words per minute, that still pales in comparason to the speed achievable with a screen reader.
Asault freak, my school teacher never taught me what contractions stood for. Also, even if she had, you are likely to forget, from not seeing the whole words. Also, through intonation of the screen reader I can be aware of most of the punctuation marks used. I stand by my earlier post that braille does not improve spelling. Like I stated earlier, writing without contractions through a computer was the first time I really started learning spelling.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2017-10-19 14:31:51

That comes to everyone's experience, then, and the particular teachers each individual has. I grew up having contractions drilled into me and to this day know all of them and what they represent, and it was always stated what the contractions were equal to in print and that was how I should see it. Spelling was also a routine part of elementary school. I suspect like canes vs. Guide dogs, there will never be a concensus on what's better, and what's not. Braille will always be vital to me... I say again, if screenreaders were to go out tomorrow and if we didn't have braille, good luck getting any sort of information. Irradicating braille would be the blindness equivalent of irradicating handwriting and the whole world simply typing every single thought, word and phrase out. I love my screenreaders as much as the next guy, but will never swear by them as the be all and end all of literacy.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 14:52:41

Enes, could you please settle some confussion for me? If your teacher taught you contractions but not what they mean... I guess my question is, what do you mean by that? Because why teach shall contraction if you're not going to learn what it means? I'm confused on that.

Heroes need foes to test them. Not all teachers can afford to be kind, and some lessons must be harsh.

2017-10-19 15:15:55

I can kinda see a sufficiently corner-cutting teacher leaving out the spellings of whole word contractions. Not so much things like tion or ance. Still, spelling tests with no contractions allowed really should be required, if this sort of thing is common.

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2017-10-19 15:49:52

My own TVI growing up would make sure of that. spelling tests were done once without contractions, and once with. One test, just had to spell each word twice. A corner-cutting braille teacher sounds like a very bad idea.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 16:10:42

hi,
I don't remember exactly. However, I know that I didn't know the real spelling of words until I started using the pc.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2017-10-19 17:26:21

That wouldn't be the fault of braille itself then... that would be an issue with the teacher who taught it to you. I don't see how any competent teacher would not bother telling you what contractions meant.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 19:05:29

@enes:
I wouldn't say, that this was an extreme case. I mean, Dragomeer said, he reads 240 words per minute. My girlfriend is a very fast reader too.
I guess, in the end, it all comes down to how you were taught braille. I was in one of those special schools for the blind and visual impaired. We learned it the traditional way, meaning without computers or Braille displays. We had these bulky typewriters and those huge books. There, you didn't have a choice. You had to know how to read. That's why I am glad, that we have Ebooks today. You can just copy them to your display and can carry them with you.

2017-10-19 21:11:49 (edited by Chris 2017-10-19 21:14:47)

Honestly, what we need are full page Braille Displays that can be connected to computers. Physical hard copy Braille isn't very portable and can't change dynamically based on what you want to read. If the sighted get full refreshable screens, why are we still stuck with a single line of refreshable Braille that must continuously scroll back and forward to read?

Imagine what a full page of Braille could do. You could learn how a particular screen was laid out. It would make charts, tables, and complex math equations easier to read. You could receive more document format info such as line indent and spacing. The future is refreshable Braille. If I can get my hands on a refreshable Braille page, I'll have little to no use for physical Braille paper.

If cost is the issue, why doesn't someone come up with a cheaper method of production? There's been no innovation in the electronic Braille market for a long time.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-10-19 21:24:46

Cheaper means less profit for the companies making such products, because they are for a tiny market. The Japanese KGS company tried making something like that called the dot view, and that came out to around $15000. Somewhere on the web is a floating stat that says every braille cell in your average braille display is around $100. Is there a cheaper way? Well, possibly... but given how specialized things have to be, I doubt it. You get what you pay for...

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 22:43:02 (edited by Slender 2017-10-19 22:46:10)

My opinion on Braille is that we certainly should teach it as it is still used on things like elevators, and even some schools are now labeling their classrooms with room numbers now, However, do to the high cost of Braille displays as well as lack of innovation in the market as stated earlier, I don't think Braille will ever be to blind people what print is to sited people. And if OCR/scanning type apps get better, I could see the aforementioned labeling use of Braille getting gradually phased out. Personally, I still read and use Braille, but it's not as relevant to me as it use to be, and I still prefer audio books as I find I do not absorb information very well when reading with Braille. These days, however, I'm more of a Braille gamer than a Braille reader. big_smile

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2017-10-19 23:13:30

hi,
If braille has any future at all, it is refreshable braille. Paper braille is dead almost. Noone will want to carry around dozens of pounds of books to and from class.
Asault freak, it is the fault of braille, as even if I learned the actual versions of contractions, I forgot what they were over time.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2017-10-19 23:39:34

Won't argue with you... because that's subjective. I most certainly never forgot what contractions represented, nor would I say have most people. Maybe it's because I think of spelling in print letters and equate the contractions to what they mean, rather than how they appear in braille with dot combinations... I dunno. I'm not discounting your experience, just saying that mine is different... and I will always swear by braille any day.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-19 23:45:40

I recall that PACMates cost around $300-400 to build, and the 1000% markup is ... to pay programmers and tech support, I think? And that system doesn't scale well, anyway, since it's a tangled mess of levers and such that have trouble enough with the interior dots on one line.
Sure, the Orbit Reader exists. An effective means of manufacturing units apparently does not, however. I'm sure there's a legit financial or legal reason they can't just build a factory and ... I dunno, one a day? I think one a day would have been enough to start taking orders by now. I don't know the costs and hoop-jumpings involved, though. I know only that this looks precarious, from where I'm slouching. ... And it's still just 20 cells. Can we teach an octopus to read, then translate what it sees to braille? Then you would have a tablet and a pet predatory shape-shifting sea-ninja to protect your home from gar. And, being a service animal, the social media coverage would provide minutes of entertainment!
(... At this point, I'm not sure the Seeing Eye Octopus isn't the best possibility. sad )

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-19 23:46:31

Enes, two things. One, Yes. I will agree with you there, paper braille is becoming obsolete, and has been for years... I only used it for foreign languages and math. Second, I'm leveling with assault on this and saying I'm not going to argue, but it still bumbles my brain that you learned contractions but don't know their meaning... I'm trying to figure out how you would know what anything that's contracted would say. And that's not me putting you down, that's genuine curiosity. I don't doubt you're very smart, I'm just very confused.

Heroes need foes to test them. Not all teachers can afford to be kind, and some lessons must be harsh.

2017-10-19 23:51:07

@Enes, I get what you mean when you say that you learnt spelling when you started using your PC to type. One question though, since I've seen that your mother tongue language is Turkkish, for what language does the above statement apply, English or Turkish? I ask this question because I myself learnt the correct spelling of English using my PC most of the time but it was a tough job as I had to check every now and then how a word was written when I hadn't come it across before. Talking about my mother tongue language, all of its spelling I learnt when I had braille books in my hand. We hardly ever used contractions. I also learnt Italian having absolutely no contact with Braille, but I won't do that mistake again if I begin to learn French as I plan to do in the following years.

2017-10-20 03:04:54

There is supposedly a braille tablet, but like the orbit, it looks like that's not going to happen.

Someone on here posted a thread listing all the braille displays which never took off.

I went to a school for the blind, and when we did spelling tests, yes they still had them back then, we had to write the words out twice, both contracted if it had any, and uncontracted.

This blitab, yeah, that's what they're calling it is promising big things.

I guess we'll see, if it ever does get released.

2017-10-20 07:50:03

The multirow [Graphiti] display seems more promising, the more recent video's were posted last august this year so it seems to be making some progress. There's also the [Braigo] printer thats supposed to retail for around 300$, although theres no word on that. I also just remembered [3D Pens] were a thing, basically a hand held 3D printer extruder, so anyone could free hand draw filaments on ordinary paper for things like braille, line graphs, etc. they retail for around 50 to 250$, filaments dirt cheap.

Audio's ubiquitous and easy to deploy but relying on it exclusively has its limitations, especially for say, the deaf blind. I think though that developments and improved access in 3D printing will help Braille evolve and stay relevant, I was actually looking at a bunch of 3D CAD designs for a bunch of braille stuff not long ago, like 20 side braille dice, braille rubix cubes, Braille connect four game sets, etc. A new frontier of things to explore.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2017-10-20 13:34:47

Graphity appears to be from the same organizations currently struggling to get the Orbit Reader into bulk production, so I can't get very excited about it.
The 3d pens sound awesome and I now know what I'm doing with my spare time today. big_smile

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-20 16:10:22

Hi.
Urm wait, someone talked about ueb in this forum, what the heck is ueb and why is it so bad?
Greetings Moritz.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.

2017-10-20 16:10:44

For me, Braille is a little more useful than speech. Mainly because with speech, if you're in a classroom, or professional setting with loud people who just can't be quiet for one single nanosecond, you can't just keep turning up the volume on the headphones, or your ears will be overflowing in no time. With Braille, you can just read silently. Also, spelling and proofreading is far easier with Braille, unless you use Emacspeak. Also, with Braille, you can read formatting changes, like italics, symbolically, instead of just hearing Italics, end italics, unless you use Emacspeak, again. Since Emacspeak is only good on Linux and Mac, though, Windows users might as well use Braille, unless Narrator grows the way I want it to, or NVDA gets those features too, or you use JAWS and spend 10 minutes configuring a speech and sound scheme. So silent reading, spelling, and better understanding of formatting is what I get out of Braille.

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2017-10-20 16:30:22 (edited by CAE_Jones 2017-10-20 17:02:46)

At Simba: UEB is Unified English Braille, where some shady organizations tried to update English Braille, reduce the need for multiple codes (computer, Literary, Math, etc), and bring the codes from all the different Anglophone countries together. It fails at all of those, except that it does allow people to avoid computer braille. It's also easier for people to write translator software for, and resolves some conflicts that have become issues in the digital age, such as mid-word dots, capitalization, etc.
In practice, the specific changes they went with range from "OK", to "That's kinda unpleasant, but I guess I can get use to it", to "Gah you ruined the past 200 years of embossing!", with a few "Why?"s here and there. I do like some things, like the new asterisk, using the Nemeth dollar sign (although I contend that the literary version saves space), and a few other small things. Some of it I can accept as necessary, if unpleasant. But I think my biggest annoyance is that someone decided to change a written language from above (this might not be a big deal to some people, but I'm from America, so that sort of thing feels wrong), and that it's optimized for the internet and (large) braille displays, effectively throwing literature under the bus. And, since my display is 20 cells, I occasionally stop and calculate how much space is saved or lost between US grade 2, UEB, and US grade 1, and UEB usually loses. (Not always, but Enough to make the difference. And yes, I believe that every cell saved counts, especially when you're dealing with paper or tiny displays, which will be the case until someone innovates on the hardware side and goes to market).
Some of the "why?"s: parentheses and brackets (why didn't they go with Nemeth? Does this make more sense in the UK?), dropping o'clock (what was the point of that? Do people right "o'c" more than "o'clock" enough that it was a problem?), removing multiword contractions (what, did someone name a character in their unpublished novel "Tothe" or "Andfora", and happened to know the right people?), and while I get dropping suffix -bled, I haven't seen enough code that ends in #, #s, or #r to justify removing other -ble suffixes. I specify suffix only because Reddit does use #s in spoiler tags, but that's a wholeword.
Annoying but understandable: dropping ation, ally, dd, and to*. Personally, I would have pointed out that mid-word capital N and Y are less common than ation and ally, and you can just add 56 to distinguish them, but apparently that's too complicated and translation software devs are probably grossly underpaid. I feel like the reason we didn't use 256 for every period in every context still applies—the sentence-ending version only works at the end of a sentence. Using it as a decimal point is especially hideous. The point of the decimal is to unobtrusively separate the numbers, and 256 does not do that as well as 46, or 3, or 6, or almost anything other than letters and dropped letters. It's a tiny bracket! And dropped d being d-related makes sense; a tiny bracket functioning like a dot would visually does not.
Things I just don't like but can't come up with solutions for: diacritics. Great Gatsby, UEB accents are hideous. They make single letters take up 3 whole spaces. Distinguishing bold, italic, and underline is good (I don't remember strikethrough being in there, and it should be), but the way they did it is distracting.
Things I like: *, bullets (I'm typing in US, and can't create bullets), sword, sphere, caps lock (sorta; the conflict with elipses is kinda annoying, and the UEB elipsis is an abomination), smother, finally clarifying @, making it possible to include < and > without using platform-specific escape characters (so dot 4 tongue), and I think there are a couple others I'm not remembering ATM.
But again, the most annoying part is that it's being pushed on everyone and makes anything embossed prior to 2008-2014 a confusing mess to new readers, and that it calls itself Unified when it very clearly prioritizes URLs, email addresses, and being able to code with contractions, over more common uses.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-20 17:04:04

Does the Graphity support multi-line Braille? My intial thought was that it does not since it seems geared more for people that want to work with drawings and diagrams.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.