1 (edited by Orko 2017-08-04 16:40:03)

I would like to see a "Rogue like" genre added to the database. Games like Entombed and Inquisitor's Heartbeat are currently listed in the RPG or adventure genre along with all the other RPG and adventure games but I feel they really should be listed as Rogue like games.

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Hmmm Orco, this is an interesting idea.

At the moment I generally tend to work on the basis that there needs to be at least four games of a given type to create a unique genre category for it however leaving that aside I do wonder what differences a roguelike genre would have from the standard rpg?

As far as I am  aware the principle characteristics of a roguelike are A, ascii graphics, B, tactical, usually positional combat, and C random generation of a dungeon environment.

If we leave aside the problem of less than accessible ascii graphics, I wonder what we have left?
Entombed I fully agree qualifies as a roguelike, despite the fact that in most roguelikes the adventurer is alone. However inquisitor's heartbeat has no combat at all, and even in its spiritual successor Flarestar, combat is pretty low key, simply stand in the direction and shoot much as is the case in something like self  destruct or the as yet rather early beta candy crashers.

that is why these sorts of games are stuck in "adventure games", which is generally where I put games which are exploration focused but don't have rpg combat.
I am actually wondering now if we do need a "maze games" category to cover games like inquisitor's heartbeat, flarestar and mortalmaze.

Ironically, there is one game I can think of  is the opposite of the likes of inquisitor's heartbeat, namely it has the characteristic combat, tactics and plot of a roguelike, but not  maze element.
That game is Kerkerkruip, which has difficult, tactical turn based combat, random distribution of all of it's game elements ( random items that are cursed or otherwise), and the archetypal roguelike plot of being a solo adventurer going into a dungeon full of monsters to kill an evil wizard.

I'll say I have another reservation as far as roguelikes are concerned, that is because ascii graphics are so integral to the public perception of what qualifies as a roguelike (it's even in the name), if we were to include them on an accessible games list people might get the idea that conventional roguelikes with ascii graphics are accessible, which until someone finally! comes up with that full screen sized braille display (which they bloody well should do), they currently aren't.

playable with effort quite possibly,  but accessible, no.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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Well, actually, ascii graphics aren't absolutely necessary for a rogue-like. The key features that coin this type of genre are random dungeons, and permadeath. Now, depending on whom you ask, turn-based actions are also required otherwise, some might classify it as a rogue-lite. The most popular feature, though is the permadeath. Kerkerkruip definitely applies for this genre in my opinion. It sounds like Intombed does as well, maybe? Never played it. The big thing though, definitely is the permadeath, and randomly generated dungeons.

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Wikipedia wrote:

through the Steam game catalog,[3] and the user-run wiki RogueBasin tracks hundreds of roguelikes and their development.[6] Because of the expansion of numerous variations on the roguelike theme, the gameplay elements characterizing the roguelike genre were explicitly defined at the International Roguelike Development Conference 2008 held in Berlin, Germany; these factors encompass what is known as the "Berlin Interpretation".[7][8][9] Some of the factors used in this definition include:
• Roguelike games create random tile-based levels, monster encounters, and treasure through procedural generation on each new game.[10] Preferably roguelikes adhering to the Berlin Interpretation use ASCII-based graphics.[9] They may include pre-determined levels as well, such as a town level common to the Moria family where the player can buy and sell equipment. Generated layouts typically incorporate rooms connected by corridors, some of which may be preset to some degree (e.g., monster lairs or treasuries). Open areas or natural features, such as rivers, may occur, though these are considered against the Berlin Interpretation.[9] While early roguelikes would have levels confined to the bounds of the terminal screen, other roguelikes enabled a much larger level size, only a portion shown to the player as they moved around it.

End quotation.

Of course,  I will be the first to admit that the definitions in the database tend to be utilitarian rather than absolute, i.e. they are created for the games catalogued specifically on this site, rather than trying to make the games in the db adhere to standard sets of pre existing definitions of game genres that might not fit with audiogames anyway, eg, most muds would probably count as mmorpgs, but the db separates them out due to the differences involved in playing muds, and "space invaders games" is not a recognized standard,  since graphical shooter games are usually distinguished  by their scrolling method, that is their movement visually, but  it would not make sense to call them "vertical fixed shooters" (especially  given that audio space invaders are so heavily based on a limited field of focus and left/right sterrio movement).

However in the case of "roguelikes" because the genre definition itself boils down to "games like rogue" I would be a little wary of trying to redefine it as read in of accessible games, ---- i.e. how could games be "like rogue"  rogue if rogue had ascii graphics.

What might work would be a more nuanced rpg definition, eg, procedurally generated rpg, or "dungeon crawl" that we could then define the characteristics of from scratch, a genre category "similar to" but not "identical with" roguelikes, though that still leaves the  question of whether we have enough games of a given new type to fill that new genre classification, and how we distinguishe the procedurally generated rpg or dungeon crawl from the standard rpg.

For instance, both adventure to fate games are heavily dungeon crawl orientated based on a lone adventurer and series of battles and feature heavy amounts of turn based and tile based exploration, however while the appearance of some enemies is randomized in the main game, the layout of dungeons and places and at least some of the bosses is fixed, ---- at least until one gets to the end of the game and unlocks random survival mode.
then there are A dark room and The Ensign which has turn based combat, again a lone hero and a randomly generated map, (they even have ascii graphics though not in their accessibility modes), but do not involve half as much by way of heavily tactical combat and include a large amount of resource management.

There is also then the related question of whether maze games with no rpg like features at all such as inquisitor's heartbeat and mortalmaze do require their own genre classification outside the rather generic "adventure games", category, which I confess does sometimes become a bit of a catch all for stuff that doesn't fit in more precise genre catagories, rather the way "action games" do.

Oh and yes I am afraid definitions and philosophy post graduate is rather like red rag and bull big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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I think DLE might fit this definition? Randomly generated maps, turn-based combat (a couple minigames aside), etc. I remember hearing comparisons to Diablo; I don't remember if Diablo is Roguelike or not.

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Diablo isn't roguelike though again there is a great example of a game system that has some aspects of roguelikes, eg, random procedural generation of maps and items and a huge amount of solo dungeon crawling, but no ascii graphics  and active time based combat.

Dle is one I didn't consider, though again your  correct in that it could belong to a possible new procedurally generated rpg definition if we decide to have one.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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Then should we consider the genre of rogue lite if rogue like is determined to be unsuitable under the full definition for the audio/accessible format? And indeed, ASCII is considered a low value portion, anyways. Of course, depending on whom you ask, ASCII maybe even thought of as inaccurate. As per this article on Rogue Basin. http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?tit … rpretation Of course, regarding other RPG genres, this can get even more messy. Indeed, me thinks we could solve many problems by replacing the single genre system and allow multiple genres, though, I believe we settled on that not being possible at this time.

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