2017-05-24 20:04:29

congrads to the two guys in the garage!  We love you!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-05-24 22:17:27

Didn't Microsoft start in a garage? Lol.

2017-05-24 23:21:58

You're thinking of Apple, Draq. That I know for sure started in a garage. Microsoft? Maybe. The ironic thing is that starting up in the garage is starting to become the norm for pretty successful new companies, so it's funny how Fs thinks that that's a demeaning term, because it's really not if you think about it. Still, Fs is notorious for bashing nv access and that needs to stop. Nv Access doesn't bash, so Fw shouldn't either, commercial market or not. Starting to remind me of the arguments you see between phone carrier ceo's online.

2017-05-24 23:36:50

NV Access may not bash, but a small group of users of their products certainly do.

Oh no! Somebody released the h key! Everybody run and hide!

2017-05-24 23:54:52

that comment by FS in my opinion just shows how not proffessional they are. NVDA is translated in over 50 languages and how many does jaws have? That's just one advantage of open source there. Yes, two guys in a garage, we love you!

2017-05-25 02:21:23

Those kinds of tactics seem to come straight from a corporate playbook, kind of tiresome at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about a slush fund to maintain and create open source projects though, then again there's Ubuntu. What sort of packages have disappeared when their maintainers left though? Was/is the source for those packages available anywhere?

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2017-05-25 02:50:55

Definitely from the corporate playbook. It's why accessibility and litigiousness should never be a thing that coexists. If you look at some of the fights between companies actively using twitter mostly phone carriers, they can get pretty brutal. It's all for dominance.

2017-05-26 19:58:04

if someone made addons that let NVDA do hand holding and network installs over a lan, this may be then able to put VFO out of business with jaws. also ability to do grade2 input, skim reading and skim reading rules along with other powerful jaws features which could be useful if duplicated into NVDA.

2017-05-26 19:59:50

really? in what ways has FS bashed nv-access? examples?

2017-05-26 21:51:19

Yes, well, about that ... I'm struggling to see how NVDA Remote can seriously compare at all well to a solution like the one FS provides, which hooks the RDP functionality in the OS or in Citrix. As things stand JAWS includes all the docs and tools for admins to set up both sides (server and client) of that exchange, and do it securely, too.

Then again, it's NVDA that's making it to the cloud, and not JAWS. So really ubiquity of FLOSS is its own compelling argument. It's the same with Linux, as a whole--why do you think it rules the cloud, and not Windows?

Just myself, as usual.

2017-05-26 23:44:04

@FamilyMario, He may have made that comment, or it may have been somebody that had the same name or was impersonating him. At this point, though, the safest thought is to just assume that whoever made that comment was a troll.

Oh no! Somebody released the h key! Everybody run and hide!

2017-05-27 01:10:55

My hope is that he didn't say that, since they themselves have coppied a few features from NVDA; soundcard switching, for instance.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-05-27 06:44:57

Also the talking mouse. I was told that NVDA had that years before FS put it in JAWS.

I'm curious about how NVDA's handling things related to Windows 10 that FS says they're having to work with Microsoft to get to work in JAWS though.

2017-05-27 12:21:51 (edited by paddy 2017-05-27 12:26:53)

Personally, I am also a great fan of NVDA. I still use JAWS more frequently, however, because I don't really like the way NVDA is displaying things on the braille display. In my opinion, they display a little too much. For a beginner, it might be a good idea to display a little more to actually get started, but if there's a way to change the way things are displayed by NVDA on the braille display, I would highly appreciate it.

I considered updating my current JAWS license from 13 to the latest version, but before I start complaining about things old JAWS versions are not capable of, I first try it with NVDA, which usually works just fine.

And "two guys in a garage"??? Gosh, they should first think about what they're saying! big_smile Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for those "two guys in the garage", there is a huge community standing behind them; maybe VFO should keep that in mind before talking about a broken-down garage!

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2017-05-28 18:21:18

If screen magnification should be intregrated in NVDA, and more options regardless of any level of discapacity should be integrated, it will compite with SuperNovaAccess Suite (I don't know but it was the previous name of it), thoes it will be the first free, open source access suite (as I call) for anybody.

73 Wj3u

2017-05-28 23:04:49

If I"m not mistaken, both Nv Access guys are completely blind. That's not to say that some low vision and sighted folks in the community couldn't help with something like that, though.

2017-05-29 01:12:11 (edited by flackers 2017-05-29 01:23:31)

Interesting thread. I'd love to ditch the ludicrously over-priced jaws in favour of NVDA, especially as Jaws has been going downhill lately in terms of releasing versions that add nothing useful to the previous one, and are just released to make money. Since version 14, Jaws has been a hell of a lot buggier than it ever was before. My trouble is I understand the jaws scripting language, but can't even get started with the one NVDA uses. And I've made my favourite music VST plugins accessible using jaws scripts, and really couldn't face rewriting all those tens of thousands of lines in NVDA, so I'm tied to jaws.
I have to say the Jaws' basics of scripting manual is a genius little piece of tutorial writing. I knew nothing at all about scripting before reading it, but afterwards, I could make software almost completely accessible, even stuff that was all just images jaws couldn't read in any way. People champion NVDA on it being for the power user, but if it ever truly wants to knock jaws out of the ring, it has to appeal more to the simple user because that's what most people are. And for me at least, it has to find a simpler way of reading stuff where the pc focus can't go. The jaws cursor: you just turn it on and arrow around, what could be easier than that? Those NVDA numpad commands seem insanely over-complex to me.

2017-05-29 04:09:52

Flackers, we may be able to solve the numpad problem by downloading the objpad nvda addon. This, in my opinion at least, is more powerful than even Jaws arrowing around. Ctrl=nvda+tab changes the behavior of the arrow keys. It's like quicknav on the mac in a sense. What we have is object nav mode, which basically just makes the arrow keys do the numpad commands, aka, down arrow to go inside an object, up to get out of it, left and right to move, you name it. Then there's scan mode, which basically scans the entire windows with the arrow keys. Then we have web mode which works like the roter on ios or mac. Up and down arrows change navigation granularity, and right and left arrows move by the navigation setting.

2017-05-30 01:39:30

Obj Pad really is a great innovation. I think that if more people tried it, they would see that object nav doesn't have to be so hard. Then again, when I began using NVDA, Obj Pad didn't exist, so I endured the process of learning object nav, and I agree that it is a bit clunky and unintuitive, especially for the novice user.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What NVDA may lack in out of the box functionality, it makes up for in its sense of community. People who see a need for access to an application, or a feature that should be added, will basically work for free, only receiving recognition for the fruits of their labor, and they're content with that. I would be willing to bet that there are also a lot more developers out there who make add-ons for their own personal use, or for their friends. We never know about them, though, because some are put off by the process of submitting an add-on, from everything I've read on the NVDA mailing list. It could also be that they don't have the best internet access, either, since many people in developing countries use NVDA because it's free. So, we really shouldn't discount the power of what can be done with add-ons, considering that Python is a well-known programming language which has many, many other uses besides extending the functionality of NVDA. If anything, I honestly don't understand why JAWS scripts are considered the holy grail, while NVDA gets crapped on for being open source, while its main functionality is built upon a language that every programmer has heard of. But that's beside the point. I don't discount the fact that JAWS scripts do have their own powerful uses, although, as I'm thinking about this, I understand that businesses are known for using proprietary software in all aspects of their operations, so I guess it actually makes sense that JAWS scripts provide a sense of comfort to them.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2017-05-30 03:40:18

Well, to be fair, not everyone likes Python either. NVDA is a great community project, but I think the curve for mere mortals is still pretty steep if you actually want to improve it yourself. Ultimately, I think this is where GW got it absolutely right first time, by using COM as the interface, for which any programming language could be used to script it.

Just myself, as usual.

2017-05-30 10:48:58 (edited by Chris 2017-05-30 10:57:46)

If companies refuse to use open-source software like NVDA (which has no malware or spyware and source code that anyone with the technical knowledge could review and verify this statement), how about Narrator? It's built into the operating system and is constantly improving. If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft also offers free technical support for the product as well.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-05-30 16:49:36

As far as on-board screen readers are concerned, it's about time MS got one to work during the setup of the operating system. Buying a new PC, then having to wait for a sighted person to come help you set it up really bugs me. Or having to have sighted help to perform a recovery, or even just the restore to last known good state message that sometimes comes up during boot up if your system has gone a bit screwy.
Voiceover works during set up, so why not windows narrator? A tech support guy once told me it wouldn't be that straight forward to have a narrator working before the OS is fully installed, but Apple seems to have managed it okay.

2017-05-30 22:41:01

Just tried obj pad. Huge improvement on the default method. Unless there are issues with it that haven't been ironed out yet, I don't see why it should still be languishing on the addons page. Should be part of the program.

2017-05-30 23:28:37

I think it's pretty much near completion. Perhaps we'll see it in the next version. A lot of stuff gets included in due time, profiles .for example. As for narrator, businesses would never touch narrator. The only way that would happen is if it could be scripted, and it's never been scriptable. As for open source vs closed source, I just wanna bring one thing up from the article about the end to window eyes that any open-minded, non-textbook IT would agree on, and which makes business's opensource paranoia twisted. Screen readers can potentially be the most powerful spyware. True, FS probably wouldn't get into data mining unless they wanted their reputation crushed, but it's within anyone's power when it comes to a closed source screenreaders All they'd have to do is add in some lines of code to send all the text it throws at you over to a server. Fs could then eat all your personal data. Again I doubt they! would actually do this, but if it's closed source, you wouldn't even notice because a security scan wouldn't come back positive. Hell, given their corporate status, if a company were to actually do this, they could probably pay antivirus companies to refrain from adding it to their database. With open source software, you'd be able to scan the code yourself and know that, nvda for example, definitely is not data mining. Oh and side note, I don't wanna hear any open source paranoia bullshit from any corporation that uses an Apache web server. You know what I mean. Lol! For those who don't know, Apache is, well duh, open source in and of itself.

2017-05-31 08:59:50

Not just sceenreaders though that could be spyware/keyloggers.

Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9g9tBIlfdIN

And that's a company that's big enough to hide it. So, paranoia? No, but it definitely shows that if a company wanted to they'd hide it in a dirver or update and nobody'd notice, I mean, Sony rootkit for instance too, or Starforce 'DRM' too, or the CiH virus that shipped with the demo for the SiN game in 1998.

All examples of malicious code being hidden away in legit programs.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively