2017-03-21 22:52:54

Hi all,

I know a lot of audio games players are still running Windows XP. For those of you who are, I was wondering if you could answer a simple question: why? In your personal situation, why haven't you upgraded to a newer version of Windows? Is it a fear of the unknown, not knowing what the new OS will be like? Inaccessibility of the upgrade process? Something else?

I ask for a couple of reasons. One serious hurdle we're dealing with is the fact that, now that XP is no longer supported by Windows, it's very difficult to build something that will work on both XP and in new environments. For example, when looking into the possibility of publishing for Windows 10 and the Xbox store, we've found that some of the libraries we have to use in order to run on XP are too old to work in that environment, and the libraries we'd have to use for our purposes in the UWP environment aren't supported on XP. So for the general purposes of trying to get accessible gaming more prevalent in the mainstream market, designing for XP makes that difficult. So it would be good to at least know why people are on XP to begin with.

I'm also informally asking on behalf of some Microsoft folks. I got to talk to some of the ID@Xbox people at GDC including their community lead for gamers with disabilities, and their main accessibility people, and they were all pretty shocked when I told them so many blind gamers were still running XP. They wanted to understand why that was, and I told them I'd see what I could find out.

So, if you are running XP, it would be incredibly helpful if you'd post a short reply letting me know why, personally, you're still on that OS. Thanks!

(PS: If you aren't on XP, you could mention that too. Might help to debunk the myth that audio games can only be played on XP...)

2017-03-21 23:23:07

Hello.
Well right now I'm not on xp I'm running windows 7. I did have an xp desktop years ago and I liked it but I like windows 7 more.
Personally I have no problem upgrading I've never done it so I don't know how but that's another story. I would love to have windows 10, I don't fear unknown computer stuff or inaccessibility, you will run into that on any os eventually. As much as I enjoyed xp in the past I think it's time to get rid of it. It's becoming a problem especially when trying to run new software. I think you should develop your game for newer windows computers and forget about backward compatibility at least for now.
So to sum all that up, I have no problem with newer versions of windows, I haven't used xp in years so I'm not worried about that.
Hth.

Guitarman.
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2017-03-22 00:15:28

i always try to upgrade to a new OS when it comes out. even if their are bugs. I like to see what the devs broke and made better.

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2017-03-22 00:43:17 (edited by Chris 2017-03-22 00:47:28)

I used to primarily use Windows XP because I couldn't stand newer versions of Windows. When I moved to a Mac in 2013, my only reason for using Windows was to play games so I continued to use XP. The other problem I observed was that some of the older games were a little unstable on Windows Vista/7/8. However, I'm now ready to upgrade to the Windows 10 Creators update since we have a talking installer. That was my biggest complaint about Windows. I couldn't troubleshoot it on my own. Now, I can. Yes, I still don't really like newer versions of Windows, but I'm going to have to move on at some point. The major accessibility enhancements will make me do that regardless of the stupid advertising Microsoft is baking into the operating system and all the other problems.

As for Windows XP compatibility, I don't really care anymore. If this is going to be developed with modern versions of Windows, the legacy support may not make sense. This is especially true now that Microsoft is cranking off new major builds once or twice a year. Windows 7 will shortly become obsolete and no one in their right mind liked Windows 8 and 8.1. Ideally, I'd like to see all future audio games become available for all accessible platforms, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

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2017-03-22 00:45:21

I suspect it's a matter of just... not knowing what's gonna happen like you said
in my case I took mine to win 7 as soon as I could then win 10, I haven't looked back and most audio games still work, it's just a matter of tracking down the older components that some require

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2017-03-22 01:35:22

I'm in a position where I certainly could use windows 7, I did use windows 7 for 5 years now and can live with it, I have my reasons for not yet upgrading to windows 10, privacy concerns related to telemetry, and the ads built in. But my situation prevents me from running anything above xp. I could certainly do it, but my situation is that I'm running virtual machines off an external hd. I also run mac so don't need windows for much. For both of those reasons, I decided to go lightweight, and windows xp is significantly lighter compared to windows 7. I did try windows 7 and didn't have much problems, but the hard drive itself is what makes me hesitant on running 7. The hard drive has this problem where it'll randomly disconnect from the mac. I don't know why, it's as if the drive hits a millisecond power serge or something to that effect. The drive is a seagate desktop 2terabyte sshd inside a usb sata enclosure, and that enclosure is powered externally. Nice idea to avoid going bus-powered, but thanks to these serges I'm not sure if my power strip is serge protective or not, because if it is it shouldn't be going through what appear to be power blinks Because my hd disconnects, windows gets interrupted, a kin to pulling the plug on the pc. So if I were to use windows 7 and yes this has happened on windows 7 for the record, startup repair would pretty much ram itself down my throat because of all these unexpected powerdowns. Hell I don't even think it's that good for windows xp either, I've had my Twitter session data for Chicken Nugget corrupt on me after a few of these disconnects. But bringing xp back to life is nowhere near as much of a headache as windows 7. If I can just get this fixed I may consider upgrading to 7 but for now, this is where it has to be.

2017-03-22 02:09:41

Ok, thanks for the info. Jack, I imagine your situation is a little unique, but I'm mostly wondering about Windows users who are still using XP. Maybe it's not actually as common as I thought. I guess we'll see—I hope a lot more people will respond :-)

2017-03-22 02:36:33 (edited by jack 2017-03-22 02:36:59)

You're right, I don't know of anyone else who has my situation practically forcing me to run xp. You'd think running on a fairly top of the line mac with 8gb ram opens up a world of opportunity for running all versions of windows, which it technically does, but when you sacrifice your internal hard drive space in exchange for higher ram, external hd's come into play to make running vm's harder. It's unfortunate that the mac's hd can't be upgraded, so it's a done deal.

2017-03-22 10:35:55

I've not run on XP for many years, I upgraded from XP to 8, then from 8 to 8.1 and then to 10, as I'd found 7 to be the clunkiest operating system that I've ever had the displeasure to try.

But that's beside the point.  I'm currently running on Windows 10 and as much as I have privacy concerns, the accessibility of the operating system outweighs these for the most part.  Though I've had a few issues, these have been, as far as I'm aware, relatively minor.

I'd like to see AHC come out on the UWP, partly because then it might mean that an Xbox version would be easier to implement.

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2017-03-22 12:04:46 (edited by musicalman 2017-03-22 12:05:20)

I upgraded to win7 in 2012 and Win10 in 2016. Personally, I think the reasons for blind people sticking to XP are somewhat similar to sighted. Sometimes they don't like the prospect of upgrading, sometimes they can't afford the upgrade right away, being in poor countries, etc. While a lot of blind people might want to hang onto XP, many, many more sighted people are doing this too. I don't think enough blind people are using XP to make it a global concern, but what do I know? Lol
While I hold nothing at all against people who continue to use XP, I do respectfully remind them that they are running an unsupported operating system. To many PC users this simply doesn't matter... until services they've hoped will hold onto XP support finally drop it and they are left hanging. Until upgrades fail or cannot be accomplished, until the new software they want won't run, or the PC gets infected because of a security breech that has since been fixed. Or until the computer stops working and they are forced, unprepared, into new territory. This exact thing happened to a friend of mine about a year ago. So, what operating system you use is your choice, and I couldn't really care less what it is. I won't hate on you or nag at you to upgrade if I find out you are using XP. But with that said, I have very little patience with people who finally are forced to upgrade for one reason or another and want to insist it's not fair. I understand that people hold onto it simply because they can use it to do the things they want to do without a problem. But the world is changing, and like it or not, we can't pretend it isn't. We don't have to like it but we do have to acknowledge it and live our lives.
ON the other side of the field, we have people who hate the thought of even mentioning old versions of things. They'll drop support for it simply because they no longer officially have to, and I don't condone this. Now, if keeping legacy support really does start to hinder development, and there's no easy workaround, then I believe dropping legacy support is by far a reasonable thing to do if it would have some significant benefit to the development of a newer, more modern product that could make the most of currently available resources. It sounds like you're on the fence about whether XP support is needed, as the decision will affect the complete course of development. IMHO XP support isn't worth it, but I'd wait for at least a few hundred people's feedback to get a somewhat representative sample of computer users. A few, or even a few dozen, isn't enough to make this kind of decision.

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2017-03-22 14:40:03

I really disliked 7, and all the shenanigans my wife has had with windows 7 machines definitely discouraged me from using later versions of windows, that and lack of compatibility with older programs, though hopefully talking dosbox will remove issues for programs such as Aemon and most other software I've found has worked fine thanks to developers like Jim Kitchin and Aprone including the right components.

It's recently become no longer workable to run xp because there is too much by way of newer software that won't run on it. I'm not speaking of the security  bogie man or any mythical bennifit to be had from unseen components that make little practical difference, I mean actual differences in terms of things you can't do on p which you do need newer windows for, games like manamon, newer websites etc.

I know people have problems with windows 10, but after using c cleaner to remove several components I didn't want and classic shell for start menu I've actually found I much prefer it, though there are several matters I do still need to  sort out such as a decent email client.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-03-22 18:50:16

I'm basically with Chris and Jack, in most regards. On a Mac, an XP VM is small and efficient, has a Start menu that I actually want to use, and can be locked down tighter than a duck's arse. Later versions of Windows are simply less good. However, I would use them if necessary. Where I diverge from popular opinion is in acceptance of Windows 10; I have already said, many times, and my position is reenforced with every stupid decision Microsoft makes, that I will vigorously avoid a platform that disregards my privacy and shows me ads. The accessibility improvements (and the bash shell/Linux subsystem) are wonderful, but not enough to stop me using Windows 7 or 8.1 with Classic Shell (the latter I find quite acceptable, actually, and very stable too, much more so than Windows 7 ever was). If Microsoft will let me pay for a version of Windows 10 that doesn't offend my sensibilities, I will seriously look into it again; until then, it's either an XP VM or a fully-booted native Windows 8.1. HTH.

Just myself, as usual.

2017-03-22 20:19:06

Joseph,
Right now I have Windows Vista, Windows XP and Windows 8.1 computers.
Back in 1995 to 2000 I developed games for DOS that required a hardware speech synthesizer.
They worked on Windows 95 and 98 computers and still worked great on XP computers but did not work on newer versions of Windows.
When we started developing games for Windows, they needed Microsoft's DirectX version 8.1 to play the sounds.
When Windows Vista, 7 and 8 came out, Microsoft's DirectX was changed so the distance between the far left sound and the far right sound was reduced.
In other words Microsoft mixed a bit of the left channel into the right and vice versa.
So Windows games designed for Windows XP did not sound as good on more recent Windows computers.
I plan on updating my Windows 8.1 computer to Windows 10 this year.

2017-03-22 20:56:41

Hmmm, I find this talk of adds on windows 10 rather strange since I don't notice any particularly, not on the operating system itself.
it is true that there was a lot of stuff which came with the computer by default which I removed using c cleaner, but that is true of any machine, hell my original xp machine came with a lot of links to microsoft gaming zone etc that I  didn't want.

Microsoft Edge by default did seem to be showing lots of adds, but whether that was just the webpage it was pointed at I'm not sure.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-03-22 21:16:22

The last time I used XP for anything serious was on a core 2 Duo computer which, although was perfectly adept at working with Windows 7, choked on a lot of busy webpages with a NVDA and firefox combination. So i put it on XP though looking back on that now Chrome would have probably solved that problem.

Anyway, the other use I had for XP is on a VM on a mac. I virtualised 7 and 8 too, but they felt a lot more sluggish and were more likely to crackle, and for something that I only used to log onto the playroom and play the occasional audio game while still booted into mac OS that didn't seem like a worthwhile tradeoff. That being said said Mac also had, or has, a Windows 10 partition which I use for more serious tasks. So now all of my computers have been progressively upgraded from Windows 8 to 8.1 and now to 10 which I find to be really nice operating systems, especially 10 with its new start menu design and actually somewhat useful built-in applications. There were a few benefits of XP for audio games but they have all been solved - that is no EAX hardware acceleration which breaks 3D audio in older games IE the GMA ones, which you can fix with creative alchemy, the VB dependencies which can be installed by a few tools, and 16-bit app support which isn't really needed because we have ways of getting Dosbox to talk.

XP usage in general is finally dropping. Windows 10 is slowly gaining popularity and Windows 7 seems to be the new most-used OS, which is honestly not too surprising. Both Firefox and Chrome have released final versions that support XP, so if people were holding out from upgrading because they were getting protected  by browser patching, well this will no longer be the case. And as for Blind users specifically, most commertial screen readers have abandoned XP as well IE JAWS 15 and Super Nova 14 were the last versions to support it. So I don't think there's much of a reason in trying to maintain compatibility with it especially when it comes to games.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2017-03-22 22:12:56

Hi.
I'm running Windows 10 on a virtual machine on my Mac without any issues. It runs very stable, and much better than Windows 7.

Best regards SLJ.
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2017-03-23 00:16:08

Actually Pitermach, it's Supernova 14 that was the first version not! to support xp. on this xp laptop I have 13.59  which was the last version of Sn to work with Supernova, then again as I said for windows 10 I have largely switched to Nvda anyway.

I will say part of my reluctance to move from xp was compatibility, but as you said at this time that is not as much an issue, ---- though i do need to inveestigate talking dosbox (especially for Aemon deluxe).

It's a real legacy to Jim Kitchin just how useful is winkit exe is for installing vb dependencies quickly and easily.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-03-23 05:22:12

This is all really interesting. I'm surprised that thus far, the only people who are using XP are those running Windows in a VM on a Mac. That's really fascinating. Obviously this is a very small sample size—but maybe it's not as important to design with XP compatibility in mind as we'd originally thought.

2017-03-23 07:51:58

Hello,

As I'm playing video games like Killer instinct for example win 10 is only one option but it's okay for me. I can't see a point why to use older versions of windows. Win 10 is working really stable here and I'm happy with it.

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2017-03-23 09:27:53

As I said Joseph, I did use xp up until recently and indeed this is an xp laptop I'm using now. But these days there is just too much that won't work on xp to make it worth the continual hassle of trying to runn it, and most older games do! work on Windows 10, indeed one of the first things I installed was Esp pinball classic and I was extremely pleased how well that worked.

Plus as I said, I much prefer 10 to 7 myself.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-03-23 14:22:35

Out of curiosity, Dark, why did you use XP until recently? Did you try the other OS releases and go back, and if so what didn't you like about them? Or did you have another reason for not upgrading until recently?

2017-03-23 19:10:27

Well In fairness I did use Xp longer than planned since I originally intended to get a new pc much earlier, but things like getting married got in the way of that temporarily.

As to other things, I did try 7 several times and disliked it. The layout of windows explorer even when set on lists, and the start menu I found extremely irritating, plus I still miss outlook express as the mail alternatives such as outlook and live mail are far too cluttered and don't have instant contact management, one reason why I'll likely be checking thunderbird in windows 10 shortly and why I installed classic shell to handle the start menu in a logical way rather than recommended this and last used that, since generally i like my program groups and such in sufolders and I like my subfolders to stay where I put'em big_smile.

Also as I said I've found both my lady's windows 7 machines to be buggy as hell and extremely finicky, though to what extent this is due to the os and to what due to the hardware I don't know, still this combined with the other factors I mention doesn't endear me to 7 as an operating system.

I admit I was apprehensive of Windows 10 particularly in layout terms, but when I found out more about it it turned out things were fixable in a way I could work with, and indeed as I said in a way that I prefer to 7, though I am still not entirely happy with the default windows 10 email program.

A further and more distinct problem I had, is the problem of concrete differences, indeed this is one I routinely argued with Thomas ward about.
People would say things like "windows 7 is more secure" or "windows 7 handles data faster" to which I would respond "but what does it do?"

it often seemed that i was being asked to give up  convenience, program compatibility and an easy to use layout for some nebulous set of "it's more" type of statements that ultimately didn't amount to much other than security paranoyer and desire to have larger computer specs for their own sake, and of course because microsoft were greedy bastards who weren't doing their job of making something better than xp ie, able to run all the stuff xp did but with increased security etc.

This situation however definitely began to change in about 2015 or so, when increasingly newer software and even web services would no longer run on xp, and to compensate the associated problems with running older software on newer os were being solved (though not due to microsoft's efforts).

While I do admit to being late in upgrading to windows 10, I really should've done it a year ago or more, I still don't regret waiting until things were relatively stabilized.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-03-23 20:19:05

Dark, try OE Classic. It's supposed to be an Outlook Express clone that runs on newer versions of Windows. It can be found at https://www.oeclassic.com/download

I have to agree with Dark concerning Windows XP and the internet. At this point, I wouldn't recommend using it for anything serious. As I said, I have it installed on my old Mac Mini to play a couple of games like Alter Aeon and the BSC titles. However, I don't find myself playing that many games nowadays so my Windows usage is almost nonexistent.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-03-24 02:24:00

I have never seen an ad in Windows 10, outside of third party websites. Never. Are you sure you don't just have malware?
I used XP until 2010. It became clear that I needed a computer with higher specs (and a second computer, in case mine broke).
I was a little nervous, but I upgraded to Windows 7 at that point and had to upgrade Jaws in order to do it.
Similar experience in 2014 when that computer failed.
This computer came with Windows 8, and I took the free Windows 10 upgrade when it was offered.
It's always a learning curve but I can't say I've ever had a major problem.

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PSA: sending unsolicited PMs or emails to people you don't know asking them to buy you stuff is disrespectful. You'll just be ignored, so don't waste your time.

2017-03-24 02:42:15

Windows 10 has advertisements for apps and games on the Start Menu, Lock Screen, soon file Explorer, and a few other areas I'm forgetting. Microsoft doesn't like to call these advertisements and prefers the term "tips and tricks". Still, when you get messages about subscribing to Office 365 and other crap, I call that advertisements. Fortunately, you can turn all this garbage off. Here's an article all about it.
https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to … vertising/
These may not impact a screen reader user as much, but they're still incredibly annoying. I bet this crap was the reason garbage like Candy Crush kept automatically downloading when I was testing the Windows 10 Creators Preview. Silly Microsoft.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.