2017-02-18 16:44:11

Wall of text incoming
Hello sam, this is what I want. I want an FPS that has an actual power ceiling on it. A power ceiling means that there is an attainable maximum of power that can be reached, and I'm mostly talking about bases here. You may remember that in my last post I mentioned that a health cap for bases is in order, and after reading all the posts on this topic, I still stand by this decision. A power ceiling would do a lot of things. It would:
1. allow for competitive play by other teams. If you have two teams that both have 100k bases it's a lot more exciting to be on one of them trying to destroy or unfuel the other person's base because you know there's a chance of destroying it.
2 actually give a reachable goal. You know that the maximum base health is 100k, so you can work toward that instead of just hunting for 5 or 6 hours for wood. You know that if people continuing to play this game for 6 or 7 or 8 hours to stay ahead of the competition will burn out right? They will burn out in a matter of days or weeks, they will see this gigantic number of base health or whatever, and they'll just say they're bored, unless you keep on adding new stuff to keep them interested. You don't want to have to keep on churning out content to prevent burnout. You don't.
Also you keep saying that people can apply themselves for like 4 or 5 hours to take down the RTU base. All they have to do is be super super secret about it, work their asses off for 4 or 5 hours, and then go all out on a huge operation that may or may not work and void all of that work. Reminds me of opposition to Hitler and other dictatorships. I couldn't believe what I was reading when I was reading about your prospective steps to defeat the RTU base. I think you were trying to taunt everyone who isn't in RTU, because, as it sounds to me, actually living long enough to execute that whole plan is no easy matter. And if you actually manage to collect up all those items, which I actually managed to begin doing yesterday, the server can randomly kick you out of the game, without any warning, with no explanation,  and no reason, and your work is just gone. My guess is that it was my internet hiccuping. But I'm paranoid, and maybe someone actually saw me being successful and kicked me off, I don't really know. You can't log back in and have all your stuff back, it's just totally removed. So yeah, add having a totally lag-free, no-drop connection to the myriad of other things you need to have to destroy the RTU base! And then you had to gall to act like all of that work is supposed to be normmal in a game like this. This game is, at its core, still mostly a kill kill FPS. You find a person, you fight it out, one of you dies and respawns. Though I feel like it's a lot more like a swamp+fps clone without zombies on it, due to the huge emphasis placed on items. If you can keep your items, you have a gigantic advantage over those who can't.

So another thing to balance bases: Make a limited number of storage item slots. In swamp, forts were limited to 8 types of items, including food, and that's probably a good balance in this game as well.


So as you see I'm not asking for you to give me a nuke to destroy the RTU base. It's cool they're up there. But I think that new teams deserve a chance to max out their power, especially in an FPS game like this. If you aren't going to do map rotations, you have to do something else to keep some semblance of balance because otherwise, things like this come up and there's nothing that can be done about it. And alec, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. If you have huge amounts of items, your opponent is dying. Skill only determines how long the dying will take.

I like to sleep, Sleep is good,
This is how I do it: Lie on a nice warm cozy bed, and dream dreams about how to rule the world!
Follow @TheGreatAthlon5 on twitter for humorous facts and game updates!
If you like my posts, thumb me up!

2017-02-18 19:56:08

After not having played the game for a long while, I decided to give it another try today.
Unfortunately though, the problems, that the game had bevore still seem to be there. But now, with the bases, they are becoming much more visible. I am totaly agreeing with keyIsFull here. The game needs limits. Both for the bases and for the players. There should be a maximum of health for players and bases, as well as a maximum number of shields, a player can wear.

2017-02-18 20:37:49

Hi.
Yeah, or in adition, as I already stated somewhere back on this threat, make it a two server game.
Greetings Moritz.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.

2017-02-18 20:44:05

"This is an fps, and it used to be a casual one. Go check with call of duty, team fortress, whatever you want. All of their multiplayer modes either do the following:
1: Rotate maps based on a set amount of time by the server, resetting all player's kills, items and whatnot.
2: Regularly just reset everyone and the entire map, basically the same as above but without new maps to play on.
3: If they do have buildings or constructs to build, their health is either limited, or you can't reinforce them at all and live with what the server gives you."
Still waiting for this to be addressed, tbh, Also... This game isn't an FPS, there... I said it. It may have been... once but it's now  a game of grinding for numbers. When you have those numbers, you set them against other numbers in the hope of your numbers being bigger. That was never the point of an FPS, the point of an FPS was that your reflexes and coordination got you by. There may have been pickups like quad damage, invisibility or health, but they were instant use. You could not hord hundreds and use them to gain an advantage over someone that just joined the server. The question the developer's got to ask himself is... does he want his game to be a numberfest? Or a classic, fast paced, frantic first person deathmatch shooter. Right now it's  falling into the omg numbersnumbersnumbers grindgrindgrind camp because here's the thing, the game allows massive gulfs in power to be obtained. Here's an example, Player RedRum joins the server, moves out and manages to obtain 8 or so pickups, player highenddouchebag spots RedRum and moves to engage. RedRum's good though, spotting highenddouchebag and immediately begins to strafe, attempting to get into highenddouchebag's blindspot. Highenddouchebag's turning though so RedRum jumps over him, changing orientation in mid air. Now behind highenddouchebag, RedRum blasts that sucker in the back with his shotgun once, twice before leaping off to the left and shooting down some of highend douchebag's projectiles in mid air.  RedRum lands again, blasts highenddouchebag and leaps over him. This game of cat and mouse continues for say, another 30 seconds or so before RedRum's running dry. highenddouchebag isn't though, having some 100000 health left in the tank as well as ammo and countless items. RedRum immediately begins to haul ass, knowing he has to get more stuff if he's even supposed to stand a chance. He's moving as fast as he can, weaving left to right to throw off highenddouchebag's aim but yet somehow, highenddouchebag's closing, aaaaaand it's over he got tagged with one of those stunning projectiles well, three of them actually highenddouchebag's been throwing them out like they were nothing the entire time. Rip, a skilled, mobile player defeated by overwelming numbers. My point? this could have played out any number of ways but skill only carries you so far against vastly superior numbers. This is why we have map resets, health caps, item caps and one time use items. This way the playing field is level and is kept constantly level

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

2017-02-18 21:15:21

thumbs up, exodus

"You know nothing of death... allow me to teach you!" Dreadlich Tamsin
Download the latest version of my Bokura no Daibouken 3 guide here.

2017-02-18 21:47:47

I fully agree with that limit stuff, man.

I post sounds I record to freesound. Click here to visit my freesound page
I usually post game recordings to anyaudio. Click here to visit my anyaudio page

2017-02-18 21:57:37

Also, you don't normally get devs of fps games playing constantly. They might come on for a round or two after launch and maybe sometimes they'll come on to give people a nice surprise, but they won't have a constant team up trying to gain power, they leave that to the players. While I know the goal here is to maybe show off bases so eventually you can get another bass dominating, at the same time it's sometimes good to reset the field a bit to give new blood a chance to be in the spotlight.

2017-02-18 22:17:52

I seriously could not believe what I heard while reading Sam's post about how to possibly destroy the RTU base. It really made me wonder how I could continue to keep taking the developer of the game seriously. I was going to make a very long post about it, but I think KeyIsFull and Exodus did a good enough job and I'd just mostly be repeating what they said. 6 hours just to be able to stand up to the best? Yeah, so much for the whole FPS thing. Thanks but no thanks, I think you got your genres mixed up there. This sort of attitude is also exactly why I would not pay for RS. No matter what else I buy with my money, if something is going to be charged for then I do expect to see some responsibility on the part of the person receiving my money. Staying mostly quiet while reading the hundreds of drama posts about RS and STW has left me with the conclusion that this responsibility simply does not exist. It takes more to be a good game dev, not just being able to code something enjoyable. Balancing the game is one such thing, and if the developer is not only unwilling to make balance adjustments but also recommends to play the game for 6 hours straight just to be able to compete with the better players, then there is not really much I can do except shake my head and find something else to do.

2017-02-18 23:16:58

I agree with you, Arjen. This is, in no way, an attack post, but Sam, I must say this: This game is further proof of your inability or lack of interest in the thoughts of your players. The balance issues are in no way new and have been brought up numerous times, but again, you simply say that we need to get good at the game. Now, one thing I notice the difference of, between you and other game devs, is the other devs always have a way for casual players to be able to compete. Alter Aeon, for example, is highly intuitive but has it's complex side, and you're not going to not beat the game if you don't use the complex side. You are neglecting the fact that some people kinda just want to come on and blast away at people for a few minutes rather than run from them for an hour or six as you say. You are adamantly holding onto the fact that your base is destructible, which it is, but your base is like that annoying, regenerating boss with healing potions: You can hit them as much as you like but they'll just regenerate the health you just took away and smite you down where you stand. I stand strong beside the others when I say: MAKE A CAP!

Heroes need foes to test them. Not all teachers can afford to be kind, and some lessons must be harsh.

2017-02-18 23:27:31

I love how the whole of the RTU's defense can basically be summarized in 2 phrases though, which I shall proceed to do
someone's done it already
git gud, scrub
props to anyone who recognizes that second one

"You know nothing of death... allow me to teach you!" Dreadlich Tamsin
Download the latest version of my Bokura no Daibouken 3 guide here.

2017-02-19 00:38:42

heh,I pretty much said the majority of this thread consisted of Git Gud, Scrub! back in post 33

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

2017-02-19 01:29:58

oh so you did, must've missed that one

"You know nothing of death... allow me to teach you!" Dreadlich Tamsin
Download the latest version of my Bokura no Daibouken 3 guide here.

2017-02-19 01:55:38

ok. here.
in the post 38 sam was tlking about something like accusing. yes guys. i was the one who accused sam of using give commands on redspot. after that some people looked on forum before the accuse thing. so well, that's why people think so. but now, i can tell you that sam didn't use those commands and also i can admit, yes, i was wrong.
i'm publicly going to apologize for my wrong statement because like i said, i wasn't right.

2017-02-19 04:45:05

@57 What's wrong with Sam playing his own game? I'd say if he's actually gonna play like a player and not use admin commands, etc. Then what's the problem. I'd sure like to enjoy a game I made if I ever got that far.

OK, I can see both sides of this argument. First off, let me just tell you I have next to no experience with this game, I've played it like 3 or 4 times earlier in its life, and played it like for 15 minutes just the other day, so if you want to ignore this based on I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, then go ahead. First, Sam and RTU team, do you not think that there is a single individual on the RTU team who doesn't like being on the top? Do you not think that they can be arrogant, or dickish, even sometimes without them realizing it. I'd scoff if the answer to these questions is a no, because it's human nature to act different when you've got power. Also strength in numbers. Let's imagine you're in a bar, and you're not in a good mood, girl dumped you, stressful week at work, etc. Let's say you're gonna get wasted, cuz why the hell not. Let's also suppose you're just itching for a good fight. Even so, are you likely to go after a burly looking 250 pound dude who looks to be like 6 foot 3 if you're skinny, weigh about 15 and about 5 foot 10? unless you're absolutely smashed, probably not. Well, what happens if you have 3 buddies with you, then what? He don't look so tough anymore, does he? Also, say you've been working out at the gym for the past year, you still have your buddies with you, you've been in half a dozen brawls. Now who is gonna look tough to you? The same scenario applies here. The more people you have, the more you've challenged other teams and won, etc. the bigger you're gonna feel, and its gonna change you, at least within the scope of the game. Let's say this, say you were on the RTU team, had all this health, had a base, all the resources, pretty much untouchable. Now, say you got kicked off the team for whatever reason, would your play style remain the same? probably not for too long. Oh you might be able to whoop up on some people while you still had all those items and health and such, but what happens when they start to run out, sure you gotta go around and pick up items now rather than buying them. Now, I don't know what you can and can't buy from the base, again, lack of experience, but I have gotten, and thus do know the effects of an item grabber. They pull a shit load of items around you to where you're virtually swimming in them. Now you're just like anyone else, oh, now you're gonna be more experienced than nubes, but you're not gonna have shit piles of items all the time, and you're not gonna hvae your buddies to back you up, so yehah, your play style is going to have to change.

I have seen time and time again the greed coming out of this community. Manifesting in bitching and moaning about things being paid, wanting more updates, acting like the world owes them X, Y, and Z. So yes, I do believe that some of the complaints in this thread are either unfounded, or are blown out of proportion. Yes, if you want to get good at this game, it appears you are going to need to work for it. If you don't like grinding, well most games aren't for you then. Play something casual or play on QC or RS. Again, I can't say if its worth it because I haven't done it. If not, then either just go after individuals, form your own team or don't play. If you want a pure FPS, make one.

Now, to sam. You can run your game how ever the hell you want, because you made it, you control it. But every good dev should try to balance their vision versus community feedback. If you are too conservative, and you stick to only what you see for the game, and it doesn't jive well with the community, you'll start to lose players. If you are too liberal, listening to the community's ideas and suggestions too much, then you start to lose sight of how you wanted the game to work. Some of the community will love you, because you implemented their ideas, but you would also lose players because people would come to realize that this isn't the game they liked to play, its all cluttered now with a bunch of wild stuff. Plus, you would be more stressed out and tired trying to do all this, and you would eventually not want to work on the game anymore. I can't speak to this from the vantage of a developer, but as a player of mainstream games, I have seen this happen. The point I'm trying to make is this, if 90 out of 100 people say there's something wrong, swallow your pride and look into the issue, doing otherwise, such as telling them no this is wrong, or ignoring them essentially makes you a narcissistic mother fucker, unless you have a good reason. but generally, if 2 thirds of the majority of people you talk to say you suck, then sorry, but you suck. I am not accusing you of this by the way, just putting it out there. Also ,there's nothing wrong with looking into an issue, doing some testing, and saying no, its working as intended. I'd say as long as you're not intentionally trying to throw the game ot of wack, but then again, you can run it however you want. I always like to say there's no such thing as I didn't have a choice. You can do whatever the hell you want, whenever the hell you want, its a matter of understanding the consequences if you do X. I can walk out the door with my SKS strapped to my back, go out there and just start blowing peoples' brains all over the sidewalk, but the consequence of that action is my life is over, I'm going to jail for a very long time, and if I lived in a state with corporal punishment, I'd be served with the death penalty. So, if you want to run the game completely the way you want if 9 tenths of people tell you its fucked up, go right ahead, but the consequence is you'll lose players. If you're OK with that, then feel free. I don't think you would do that, because it would suck to spend hours and hours and hours on a project just to piss away your player base in a fit of peek.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm drawing conclusions or being accusatory here, I'm just setting up hypothetical scenarios just to shed some light and make things clearer.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2017-02-19 06:09:58

I agree 100% that caps are needed, and perhaps map resets I don't know, every 6 hours, maybe every 12 if you really want that?
  But also what I notice sometimes Sam is that you get too personal, and take these complaints and arguments on the defense. That's not just you either, but I'm talking to you as the developer. See, the RTU and all that is a good idea, but only if the map resets and scraps them out and gives the "n00bs" a chance at getting somewhere. Personally it's quite fun for me when I create a base and have to defend it to the death with players who have just about the same items as me, because I know I have a fair chance. For example, I made a base a couple nights ago but because Q had access to your base storage, he decimated it with hundreds of throwing stars to which he had easy access. And then, there are probably 50 to 100 barricade bombs by the RTU base, and I think I'm being modest with my estimate.
Even with caps and resets, it still would be possible to engage in epic team wars, the only difference is it would rely on skill and speed to get the upper hand rather than collecting a mass of items over a 6 to 8 hour period every day divided among 15 to 20 team members and building up an empirical monster machine of a base with barricade bombs spanning a swath of territory of greater size than the Red River Valley.

If you have issues with Scramble, please contact support at the link below. I check here at least once a day, so this is the best avenue for submitting your issues and bug reports.
https://stevend.net/scramble/support

2017-02-19 06:49:17

That is indeed well-said Ironcross 32, I agree completely.

2017-02-19 09:41:14

guys, what ironcross said at least makes sence, he's at least sivilised, everyone else in this topic keeps crying about the game's structure cause we on RTU got powerful. but what if mister connor here didn't post the topic would you all cry about it? nah. to everyone here that's complaining just because our team is powerful, grow up. and to connor. stop be always against sam for no reason. you cause much drama, you know?

2017-02-19 10:16:42

Hi.
I don't have much experience with the game, and I am not good at it, at all.
I like the fact that you need to learn and you need to get some skills to survive and be a good player. My question is: Have the game changed to be for the best skilled players only? Can newbies still enjoy the game, if the server is full of high skilled players who have their own base, close to unlimited stuff and when they get killed, well, they just grap a ton of new stuff from their base.
Having read this topic, it seems like the game has changed to: Well, if you're a newbie and aren't skilled enough to build up your own base, you're screwed. I hope I'm wrong. It would be sad if things are much harder for newbies because of the bases.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2017-02-19 11:11:37

nope, there aren't that many bases on the server because you really need a team to defend one and most people can't defend their base. besides, there are so many players online now and there are several new ways to escape a fight so if someone very skilled atacks you you can actually escape him pretty easy if you know how the map is built since it's way larger now

2017-02-19 12:15:07

*notices update* 

    *looks at new changes for the game* 

   *spots the bits on player bases, item storage, purchases, and a larger map* 

   *removes Red Spot from computer* 



    Really now, a common complaint of this game was that people spent time hording items and gathering item grabbers to turn into high hp/shield/gas masked tanks that took way too much effort to kill if just logging in for fun.  Many people have expressed this issue in game, and in the forums, and instead of the developer working on addressing this problem, he completely exacerbates it to one of the greatest extremes.  And cheerfully informs us that with 6 or so hours of work where anything could randomly go wrong, one can take out a base built up to the extreme (possibly)


    I'm not going to get into the discussion about large player teams and invincible bases, I just find systems like that really stupid on games with limited populations on principle.  Instead, I'm going to reflect the expression Key made earlier, and I think the OP tried to make before everything got derailed completely. 


    RS was fun as a casual kill kill game where one could log in and just enjoy blasting people (or getting blasted), and then coming back for more after logging on.  I still remember on the early days where some of us would form opposing groups, recently respawned, and have a simulated death match of last team standing within the battlezone.  And then run back for another round. 


   Now with the previous changes, and everyone deciding its more fun to horde items on mass to get a huge advantage (or people stocking up lots of antibiotic darts for friends who just logged in or respawned) I've notice the population has taken a hit, and there usually is less fighting at times as everyone wants to stock up just in case a 10k hp player charges at them.  The game became less pick up and play, and more grindy. 

    And with comments I've seen, and the changes illustrated, the game is just busted for me.  Red Spot was great as a casual kill kill game to kill time and generally have a bit of mindless fun.  This base thing allowing for massive item buffs, and the stress of keeping a base defended at all times just ruins the entire fun.  And frankly, RS sucks as a serious FPS, and these new additions do not help its case either.  Instead of playing up to its strengths, its gone down a different route where it struggles to adapt and tries to be innovative with the completely wrong idea.  Yes base building and defending against players is a thing, but it's done in limited time frame matches where everything is reset on the next game, such as Gears of War Judgement's version of horde (and considering it wasn't brought back for GOW4, and the original players v npc survival stuff is back...).  And normally base building and defense battle stuff which persist over reboots are regulated to massive populations with limited membership space for the defending group.  So instead of 4 people on targeting the lone dude who made the effort to prepare for this assault, it would be your group of 20 working with/against many other groups in an all out war. 



    RS is not a game with thousands of players populating multiple servers.  It's a game that sometimes has 6 or 7 average before this update and will probably drop back down once the new release excitement drops down.  Not many of us takes this game seriously enough to actually care for our items or to grind 7 hours straight just to try to destroy the base of a team.  Like mainstream people, many of us just wanted a game we can sit down to and just kill people in battles or objectives.  We already have other games that involve grinding, or other activities which are a lot more fun.  No need to stress over if my team managed to keep a base defended after a long day of work or classes.


TL-Dr:  Rs excelled better as a casual pick me up game that could of played on those strengths, but decided that it wanted to be more soul crushing, grindy, and require a lot more coordination with people I vaguely know more so than an actual job.


   P.S:  Really now, barring Swamp as that was it's own type of game, why don't we have any FPS or 3d combat game with actual match structures and rounds like the mainstream people.  I'm getting a bit jealous hearing my brothers play Overwatch and For Honor, and frankly sick of this item hunting bullshit RTR and RS have settled on.  Let's just all coordinate charges and kill already.

2017-02-19 14:26:34

sam here is a easy fix to your problem that will make all players, newbys and vets happy.
come out with different modes for the game, that you pick from the main menu, for example

free for all
in this mode X amount of players are on a map, seeing who can rack up the most kills in a set time limit from 2, 4, 6, 8 to 10 minutes. everyone starts off with the same amount of health, weapons, and ammo. characters respawn, and loot is dropped frequently throughout the map. this mode will be based on nothing but fps skill

team mode
in this mode there will be teams constructed of 2, 4, or 6 players, that all start off with the same health, weapons, and ammo, and the teams will try and capture a flag and bring it back to base, or the team will work on racking up more kills than the other, while being able to trade ammo weapons and health packs with there teammate. this mode will be based on fps skill, and how well you work and communicate with others.

tower defend
in this mode players will grind for hours trying to make there base stronger than the other base.  you can set a 24hr or 48 hr time limit for everything to reset. everytime a base is destroyed, the other team is rewarded with a medal and all of that bases loot. this mode will have two teams. new players that join the mode can pick which ever team they want to be on. this mode will be based on, fps skill, your will and want to grind for hours finding loot, and working well with your team.

these modes allow players to pick how they want to play the game, instead of forcing them to play the game one type of way. hence making all parties involved, newbys and grinders all satisfied. me personally i am a free for all capture the flag type of guy, i loved the capture the flag mode is swamp. i found myself playing that more than the main game that requires you to grind and quest. but others i know didn't care for the capture the flag mode, they preferred to grind. moral of that story sam is every gamer is different, and likes to play the game a certain way, so give your project options. don't limit it. that will turn off a lot of gamers that will feel  stuck to play the game one type of way with no variety

can i get a peace double harmony burger? no chaos

2017-02-19 14:58:14

I don't think there's anything wrong with a game such as this where you have to strategize to get somewhere. I also see where just a quick deathmatch where you go in and just kill peeps. Maybe Sam could release RS Classic where the game was as it used to be. Throw caps on health and stuff and add a clock, then pull it from the main server, create a dedicated server program and let people host their own servers like RTR. Even better if you could get mini UPnP working too so people don't have to port forward. I honestly don't see like its a big deal to port forward, but many people seem to think its quantum level shit going on there.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2017-02-19 15:46:17

@ironcross32: your original post, in response to mine, seemed to sum up the points a bit better than I could. I'm definitely not against Sam playing the game, because that's part of the fun. In fact I actually like this a lot, I've noticed with devs like Pragma and Sam, they are joining in a bit more with us, playing their games, and whenever I see a dev on it gives me a good feeling. Hay, I'm playing against the dev here, this is cool, kind of thing.
I just worry that others don't, which is a shame to be honest, as it adds a bit of a layer of fun to the proceedings. Oh, and also, during my time with Redspot, I haven't even seen the bass yet, but have taken part in a few battles. Right now though, I hear people talk about ledges and towers, and I wonder how to find those on the map.

2017-02-19 16:05:40

yo, guys, sam said before that he's isn't going to let people host servers cause that will make it harder for him to release new updaytes etc. the game is fun as it is. if you want sam to change modes etc that would require a change of the game's structure etc which means that sam basicly have to code a new game in order for it to work as ya guys want. at arron, there are towers at 260 260, 460 260, 460 460, 60 260, 260 60, 60 60, 60 460 and  460 60. think i got it all heh.

2017-02-19 17:01:01

He doesn't necessarily need to build in different modes. Emplementing limits would be enough.
Since the bases are so far apart from each other, I think, base defense and the usual killing can be on one map.