OK, too much have been said about this, that I have not been able to keep up with in these last hours.
It is clear that whose twisting the scriptures is not me, but you Alex and the others, just so that your arguments fit. If I'm saying that God does not aproves homosexual relationships between male and female, it is clear that he does not aproves bestiality as well. The scriptures are not for private interpretation as 1 peter says, and I'm not takling here from my point of view, but instead from what God says according to its context.
@Daigonite: You've said too much things and I've not been able to keep up with just everything, and one of those was the intersex problem. I apologize if I kind of evaded the subject, that was accidental; regarding that, all I can say is, there's no half male or half female, nothing like that exists. Although it is true that a person can be born with a series of malformations and stuff like that, even though if that was true there is no intermediate sex, male was created male and female was made female.
Regarding the personal revelation, well, he has revealed to you, and to most of you, way too many times. The problem is, as the pharisees in the time of Jesus were asking for signals, the same thing is happening with you. He's trying to speak to you but you can't hear him, your ears are so closed. Yes, I believe that God still operates signals and miracles today, however he has shown you all the evidence of his reality, but again as the bible says men preferred darkness than light.
Regarding God's existence, answering to Simba as well. So you said: "interesting that there might be a consequence when I dont believe in something that clearly doesnt exist in this world", I enfasize that word Clearly.
So, clearly God does not exists? lets see how clear God's word is about this. Psalms 14 1 says: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. This might sound a bit harsh, but with much love and respect I tell you, man, that God's word calls those who said what you've said, fools.
Now let me ask you both Simba and Daigonite a couple of questions: 1. I'm fully blind with no sight, and I assume Simba is blind as well; We can feel the wind blowing, the sun heating us, we can even with today's technological advances make a skype call and talk to a person whose not with us, somebody who we don't know personally. So, is that person not real? is he/she a product of our imagination, a creation of our poor minds? does it means that the win do not exist just because we can't see it, nor the sun? sertainly, once you leave God enter your heart and your life you can feel him, you can talk to him, you know that he's listening to you because you have a personal relationship with him, even though you're not able to touch him.
2: if God does not exists, then how do you explain to me that the see does not goes out of its natural course? how comes that the stars, the moon and the sun are still in orbit? what keeps them there? oh yes, you can use science at your favor, but science will never, and is not able to answer these questions. why do we wake up every single day to do whatever we have to do? why is our heart beating 24 7? why are we still breathing without any interruptions? why are we still here instead of, one day just stop existing? again, yuo can use loads of filosophical arguments, but nun of them can explain nor give answer to this questions correctly.
3: If he doesn't exists, then why in this world a person's life who once was about to commit suicide changed so drasticly? why those of us who decided to commit our lives fully to him are every single day testifying of his grace and omnipotence? is it just a colective imagination or creation? you might say: This is all personal, its all about you and your life. OK then, tell me: if he does not exists, how comes that the sick gets healed? a few posts ago you said that praying doesn't heals anybody but science. and, although I agree that medicine was made for our benefit and nobody can deny that, then who gave men his/her intelligence?
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Posts: 126 to 150 of 319
#126 2017-02-22 06:32:05 (edited by Andy93 2017-02-22 06:38:47)
#127 2017-02-22 08:35:34
I think God as portrayed by the Bible is to inconsistent to be what people say he is. In all honesty, I think Christianity, while probably worthwhile in the beginning, was subverted by Romans and the books altered to promote a religion based on fear. If you don't believe in God you go to hell. If you don't obey the church, you go to hell. It's all about control, especially as I understand it, the old testament doesn't even have the word hell, and the Hebrew word Sheol has a different translation. Hell isn't even mentioned until Mathew 5:22, and the word Jesus used is Gihenna which was more along the lines of a purifying fire than a punishment. You can also make a reasonable argument for reincarnation and karma based upon Mark 8:27-28, and John 9:2-3 (How can one sin before birth to be born blind?). Still, things like Jacob having two wives and sleeping with their servants being okay with God, God himself saying he's jealous and punishing the sins of the father to the third and fourth generation? God telling people to kill their enemies down to the children? How is that at all loving? the best quote from the Bible in my opinion is 1 John 4:8: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. That should be what Christianity was meant to be. Imho, Mathew 7: 1-5 is something most Christians forget, and why I no longer follow organized religion at all.
Michael
#128 2017-02-22 08:53:44
@drums: Although I agree that rome made a lot of messed up things, christianity has nothing to do with what Rome and the catholic church does, for that's not christianity. No matter how many times people try to alter the scriptures for their own benefit, God's word is still true for today, its principals are still for today. Revelations chapter 18 22 says it all
#129 2017-02-22 16:09:45
Let me ask you all one question. How would you feel if marredge and relationships were illegal between a man and a woman but not illegal for gay couples?
1MeNca7h6m8du4TV3psN4m4X666p6Y36u5m
#130 2017-02-22 16:25:31
I'm sorry, but Rome basically said what's cannon in Christianity. I admit the tenants of Christianity, love your neighbour, etc are good ones, but there's a lot that I disagree with. Also, the verse you cited is interesting. Revelation 18: 22 states, "The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again." Context is talking about the fall of Babylon. I'm not understanding where you are coming from with that quote, and also Revelation needs to be taken most of all with a very flexible mind because it is steeped in so much metaphor.
That being said, Jesus hung out with prostitutes, thieves, tax collectors, etc. He did not tell them to repent. He valued them for themselves. All the repentance and rules and stuff came from Paul especially. therefore, bringing this back on topic, losing friends because they think differently than you is hypocritical of the teachings that you profess to follow.
Michael
#131 2017-02-22 16:47:32
@drums: excuse me man, but again Rome has nothing to do with our canon, keeping in mind that the christian church was born in Jerusalem, not in Rome. Although the primitive church was persecuted and scattered, Rome does not dictated in any way what our canon is, no way! Its true that Rome made things their way, I agree with you in that point, but that is not the case if we're talking about christianity in general. The good valoues of christianity are still present today, and will never pass, the thing is our testimony.
Oh and regarding the text I quoted, its actually 22 18 of revelations, I apologize for that mistake. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
#132 2017-02-22 16:58:54
@herstseth: as the times we're living today, days of noa and Lot Jesus said, I'm sure that if that happened, no one whould care. After all, who cares about how the other person lives?
#133 2017-02-22 17:46:08 (edited by daigonite 2017-02-22 18:10:16)
This thread is a trainwreck.
Epistemology is cringing in pain.
I apologize if I kind of evaded the subject, that was accidental; regarding that, all I can say is, there's no half male or half female, nothing like that exists.
Goddammit, did you even do any research on the subject? I know you can't see the diagrams on google images but for crying out loud. There is no distinct male and female sex in humans either chromosomially or developmentally.
Developmentally, our sex organs are exposed to hormones in our development that form either male or female parts. If this process has problems, intersex organs can develop. While a person may be male or female chromosomially, this is what "intersex" refers to. They often have hormonal problems caused by this mixup.
Chromosomially there are XXY and XYY and even XXYY, which, while considered biologically male, are not equivalent to standard males and often have fertility issues.
Outside of mammals and birds, sex has a wide variety of possibilities. Some species are asexual, some species are female only, ect. Reality does not dictate that male and female are concrete concepts.
Regarding the personal revelation, well, he has revealed to you, and to most of you, way too many times.
If this is true then I should be able to come to that conclusion myself without having someone tell me.
he problem is, as the pharisees in the time of Jesus were asking for signals, the same thing is happening with you. He's trying to speak to you but you can't hear him, your ears are so closed.
Really? How can I objectively know for sure that this is the case and this isn't just you pulling more crap out of your ass, ahem, I mean your book.
but again as the bible says men preferred darkness than light.
to be fair this might be true in my case in a literal sense lol
So, clearly God does not exists? lets see how clear God's word is about this.
"God exists because my books says so" k den
I'm fully blind with no sight, and I assume Simba is blind as well; We can feel the wind blowing, the sun heating us, we can even with today's technological advances make a skype call and talk to a person whose not with us, somebody who we don't know personally. So, is that person not real? is he/she a product of our imagination, a creation of our poor minds? does it means that the win do not exist just because we can't see it, nor the sun? sertainly, once you leave God enter your heart and your life you can feel him, you can talk to him, you know that he's listening to you because you have a personal relationship with him, even though you're not able to touch him.
This is probably the first interesting philosophical question you've brought to the table, so I'll explain:
You can determine if someone exists with relatively useful certainty by interacting with them. On skype, you can hear their voice, the wind can be felt, ect.
Of course it could be all in your head, but this is highly unlikely, and not practical for everyday living. However, there is no practical disadvantage of not accepting God in this life. I don't even know if I'll have a next life and honestly, if I get punished for it afterward, then so be it - I do not bow to people who refuse to let me think for myself on these issues.
It's unlikely everything is in your head though, because solipism has serious consistency issues.
if God does not exists, then how do you explain to me that the see does not goes out of its natural course?
Because natural laws are consistent.
how comes that the stars, the moon and the sun are still in orbit?
Because gravity attracts objects in orbit that are unable to reach escape velocity. Fun fact though - orbits are not stable over long periods. For example, the moon is actually drifting away from us, while we are getting slightly closer to the sun. This has been objectively measured.
oh yes, you can use science at your favor, but science will never, and is not able to answer these questions.
I just did though. Argument from ignorance.
why do we wake up every single day to do whatever we have to do? why is our heart beating 24 7? why are we still breathing without any interruptions?
Because if we didn't, we would be selected against and would not survive. Argument from ignorance again.
why are we still here instead of, one day just stop existing?
Because natural laws are consistent, and there's no logical reason to assume that we should.
again, yuo can use loads of filosophical arguments, but nun of them can explain nor give answer to this questions correctly.
Only because you refuse to accept that these questions have answers that are easily found by doing a simple google search. But you have no interest in finding out any information that doesn't validate your preconceived notions, borrowed from a book.
If he doesn't exists, then why in this world a person's life who once was about to commit suicide changed so drasticly?
Probably because they realized they had a reason to live for? I mean I've been suicidal in the past and finding a task to keep myself occupied has helped tremendously from fighting off suicidal thoughts.
why those of us who decided to commit our lives fully to him are every single day testifying of his grace and omnipotence?
Because you're told to do so. Furthermore god is not omnipotent since the idea of him being omnipotent would imply that he created hell, which is against a benevolent god's nature.
is it just a colective imagination or creation?
Yes. Yes it is.
Please stop rejecting reality to suit your own, you aren't Adam Savage. And please, for epistemology's sake, give him a break and stop asserting truths out of your ass because your book told you so.
#134 2017-02-22 18:10:17
Please stop rejecting reality to suit your own, you aren't Adam Savage. And please, for epistemology's sake, give him a break and stop asserting truths out of your ass because your book told you so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnEpOsGH4o
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
#135 2017-02-22 18:51:29
Hi.
At andy, why should I even bother answering those questions you put up on the table? You wouldnt even listen to what I say as long as this doesnt go with your take on how this world is working.
Greetings Moritz.
#136 2017-02-22 19:00:41
To be fair it's a fun challenge but it's kind of low hanging fruit.
#137 2017-02-22 19:18:57
Hmm. its interesting how you quote stuff and give arguments, and deffinetly take God out of this, deliberately. And the reason for that to happen is, simply, because you can't understand, you can't see further just because you think you're more intelligent than your creator.
@daigonite: The bible is not just a book as you call it, its God's word written by men, inspired by the holy spirit. We're not talking about sci fi here, even though you might call it that way.
Regarding the intersex thing, I could do a lot of research in the subject, but it is still clear enough for me that God created male and female. Oh and its too easy to say: you guys were told to believe what you believe. OK then, if that's the case why did I just decided to abandon roman catholicism, the religion I was originally instructed in? wasn't it because I found a better hope in the truth, instead of a dead religion? BTW: The person who was suicidal in the pass that I mentioned, was me. And you couldn't said it better, I realized that life indeed had a sence and a purpose, that life is awesome even with its difficulties and hazards, when you have Christ in your heart.
Regarding the answers to all of my questions, you said its argument over ignorance. But then how it all happened? it couldn't just happen out of the nothing, grabity's got a cause itself, someone had to establish the laws of nature as you said, wich are consistent and we both agree in that point.
Conclusion, @general: I shake the dust of my feet and move onn, knowing that I have already preached the message of truth, that you have hard it and read it, and that you have decided to turn your back against God, questioning him and judging his actions as if you and me were superior to him, even denying his omnipotence, benevolency and omnipresense. As Paul said to the jews in many times, your blood is not over my head. God is still patient wayting for those who want to accept him in their hearts, there is still mercy for he/she who is alive and wants to experiment peas and joy and eternal life, but there will be one day in witch the doors will be closed, there will be no mercy and forgiveness of sins, and the end will come. Then every single nee shall bow in his presence weather we like it or not, and every single tongue will confess God as stated in Romans 14 10 12.
So, if God doesn't exists as you claim, then that non existing thing I worship and praize has changed my life, and I live because of that thing. However if he exists, then all of us are held responsible for the choices we made here on earth, weather if we accepted to live by his standards, or we just shake our heads and continue living our lives as we've always done, without God. Again, if I am an ignorant in your eyes, then I'm proud to be one, because my ignorance has given me peas.
Last but not least, I know that when you're defending your faith you might sound harsh at times, not so friendly. I ain't gonna apologize myself for what I've said, because as I wrote in an earlier post I'm not gonna change the message, but instead I'm gonna preach it as it is written. However, I wanna let you know that I don't see nun of you as my enemy, I don't see you non believers as adversaries. In fact if someone in this community, no matter who he/she is, happens to need something from me, and I'm able to help, I will help that person with any kind of problem. Or otherwise, if someone might want to talk to me about whatever comes to their minds, I have no problem with it. If you see me as your eney for believing in what I believe and preaching it, that's fine, but I'll never see you as one
#138 2017-02-22 19:37:59 (edited by Mayana 2017-02-22 19:39:31)
@Andy93, I would like to ask you just one question. Your religion is one of many others, some existed far before it was even "made". What is different about all the others, what about yours is special and makes you believe it is the only true one? Mind you, I'm not saying yours is/isn't wrong, I'll leave those arguments to the others. I am just asking what makes you believe it is.
To everyone, thank you for this conversation. It is a excelent read. Sadly, I don't believe in god, even if I was raised that way, this topic didn't change my opinion in the slightest.
Code 7 tips: https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/4010 … or-code-7/
Don't forget to be awesome!
#139 2017-02-22 20:14:49
Again, if I am an ignorant in your eyes, then I'm proud to be one, because my ignorance has given me peas.
And my education has given me carrots. There's no need to bring innocent vegetables into this. 
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
#140 2017-02-22 20:15:32
@Mayana: OK, I'm answering to your question, witch is quite interesting for me. You say that my religion is one of many others, but the truth is, christianity is not a religion.
It is true that many religions existed before christianity, but religion is the wrong attempt of the human race to establish contact with a superior being. Yes I said its wrong, because although it is true that there are a million of religions in this world, none of these religions can reestablish the broken relationship between men and God. That's why christianity is not just one of many religions, because it gives you and me, sinners unshortened from God's glory, the opportunity to have a personal relationship with a living God, through Jesus Christ, be justified and washed of our sins through his blood. This is something that no religion, no matter its name, can do.
So what makes christianity especial? first, you know that each existing religion in this world has a leader. Through out the history, most of these religious leaders have left their teachings and doctrines, they've left their mark in this earth, but they are all dead, and you can visit their tombs. Our leader and God, however, is not dead because once he fulfilled his ministry here 2000 years ago, he died on a cross and spread his blood, and resurrected at the third day by the power of the Holy spirit, vincing over death and the sin, redeeming us and opening everybody a path through his blood. That's what makes the difference, the resurrection.
Although all these religious leaders we know about are all dead, Jesus the sun of God resurrected, its living in his thrown next to the father right now, and will come soon to take his church away for ever, something known as the rapture. That is what, not only makes the difference and makes it special, but also we get to experience his full power in us, the church.
I hope you were able to understand my answer, if not then, I'm open to questions
#141 2017-02-22 20:17:20
@alex N: if you're making fun of me because of the way I wrote that word, take into consideration that I'm not a native english speaker, and that I might make ocasional mistakes.
#142 2017-02-22 20:22:31
@Andy93: I'm not a native English speaker either, but I just make sure that what I'm trying to say is also what I say... But I'll let you eat your peas in Peace.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
#143 2017-02-22 20:46:54 (edited by zakc93 2017-02-22 20:48:37)
I guess the language might be considered a bit technical, but:
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep39589
#144 2017-02-22 21:23:49
this is a very interesting topic and it is a pleasure for me to see how others think about all this stuff so I'll add my oppinions here aswell.
Any book that talks about god be it the bible, the quran or the buddhist books can't be true because they are written in an objective point of view. The bible wasn't even written during the life of Christ, it was written severals years later from the perspective of multiple people which have similar but not the same points of view. The first priests of the church had a massive influence on the bible because they decided to exclude some books such as the gospels of thomas and marry, they translated the books how they thought it's best which might not be the truth. For example in the book of creation the fact that god created the world in seven days is not true since the hebrew word originally used doesn't mean day but an indeffinite period of time, and because they didn't have a word to use they decided to use days instead. This is just an example of many and this makes me not believe in those books.
My opinion is that there is a god that has created this universe simply because the laws of phisics are too uniform to appear out of nowhere. I think about our universe as a computer program which has some clear laws implemented, such marvelous and simple laws that make everything to work as expected. Science means discovering those laws and how we can take advantage of them in our own way. God is everything because everything started from a single point of pure energy which had all the information required to work properly and expand into the universe that we see today.
What are we humans? we are just a bunch of atoms that came out during the explosion of a star, stardust, but if you think on a deeper level we are just a tiny bit of the primordial energy that expanded into the universe of today. We are the only part of the universe that we know that it's aware of itself, thus we are the conscience of the universe. We might not be the only ones aware though, if you think that the earth is just a speck of dust amongst the billions and billions of galaxies which contain billions and billions of planets.
I think that the only way to discover those deep truths for yourself is by meditating, by turning inwards and searching for what really makes you be a human. I never liked to believe what others said so I experimented for myself and searched deep within and this is what I found, and to me it's the truth because I discovered it for myself not just from someone's words which have been translated over and over. We humans tend to think that we are the most important beings in the universe but if you really meditate and think about what the universe means you will discover that we are so small compared to everything that is...
Stephen King
#145 2017-02-22 21:37:43
@mastodont:
1: there is not something like "the first priests of the church", because every believer in Christ was made a priest in God's presence, therefore the roman catholic model of priesthood is false. 2: The bible is the inspired word of God, all its 66 books, and although most authors wrote in different contexts, none of them contradicts each other. Plus, the gospel of Mary and peter are pseudo epigraphs, as well as the gospel of Judas written by the gnostics cult. It contains history from the creation of men, till the coming of Christ and that is something history cannot deny, the word of God is simply historicly accurate.
Also, though it is true that time is relative for God, when the bible talks about the creation of heaven and earth, it says 7 literal days. Isn't it possible for an all mighty God to create everything in 7 days, by his word?
3: Saying that everything is God is panteism or however its written, wich is absolutely anti biblical.
4: You can't find the truth meditating, but only in the scriptures. The truth is Jesus, as Jonh 14 says
#146 2017-02-22 22:17:28
@Andy93: I pray to the invisible pink unicorn that you may get better. She is mighty and pink and invisible and will surely help you.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
#147 2017-02-22 22:35:35
Hi.
At alex, wait there, I dont get how that wegetable joke comes into this, can you explain this xD.
#148 2017-02-22 22:42:44
@Simba: Peas/Peace.
Though I'll say, I do like the thought of religion giving you peas, I just hope there's going to be other Things, otherwise that'll be one boring meal.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
#149 2017-02-22 22:45:27
@Alex: OK, this is getting a bit offensive. I know about the pink unicorn thing, I absolutely know what you're talking about. I am not making fun of your atheism, so I demand from you the same respect I'm giving you. Or, if I've offended you in another way, let me know and I'll surely will apologize and recognize my mistake, but this is not about offending the other person here.
#150 2017-02-22 23:12:27
Are you telling me that my unicorn is not real? I'm not trying to offend you at all either, I'm just saying that I'll pray that you'll get better...Isn't that more or less what you say too? Surely you can't just tell me I'm wrong for wanting the same for you as you want for others.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.
William Blake - Auguries of Innocence, line 1 to 4
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