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So I am a conservative. I belive in tridishinal marrege, and christian values. My friend who is a christian is studying special education. I feel like she is changing. Ever sence she went to college she is more accepting of lgbtq+ and trans isues and says I'm closed minded when I don't accept these things. Just today we were talking about the book of life. She said if people wanted to change there gender and there name that god would add them in the book of life. This statement shocked and scared me. What can I do or say that would bring my old friend back. I was not christian in high school but I realised that everything I was being said about christians and conservative people was a lie. I need advise because this really scares me.

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If you don't accept gays, lesbian, trans, then you're closed minded. You can't change people if they are gay, lesbian or trans. That's simply how they are. The fact that your friend haven't talked about this before might be because she have done her best to hide it, because she was afraid to loose her friends. Now she tells you the trooth, and what does she get back? A friend who are trying to change her. People can hide their sexuality, but they can't be changed.
What about trying to listen to her, and try to understand and accept her as her friend?
I'm sorry if I totally misunderstood your post, but if I understand this correctly, you simply can't accept her, just because of this. If you really can't stand this, why not just try to make an agreement where you still are friends like before, but you just don't talk about this topic?
If she is blind, it might be even more difficult for her, because she might need some blind people to talk to about this...

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@Slj, I don't think hhurstseth405
's issue was that his friend was gay, only that she started to say it was okay  if someone was gay, which he isn't happy with.

@hhurstseth405
, you say in your first post that "what you were told about Christian people and conservatives turned out to be wrong" well maybe your friend is finding that what she's been told about trans gender people has been  wrong too, and perhaps  you should think about what she is saying rather than automatically assume she is wrong yourself.

I won't get into the Christian ethics here, but one thing Iwill say is if you believe in a loving God, do you really think God would command people to hate each other over something so miner?


I do recall a quotation from Paul to the effect that there is neither Griek nor Roman, Male nor  female, Slave nor free, all are equal in the sight of God, and Jesus tended to be a pretty accepting fellow big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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Being a Christian myself, I can agree with Dark on that statement; we are all equal in the sight of God.  What you cannot do and should not try to do as a Christian is expect others to believe as you do.  Jesus never blamed worldly people for acting like worldly people; this is called consistency.  It'd be the equivalent of me telling you to know everything about a story without first reading it.  What Jesus did do was speak out against people who were so called religious scholars when they acted hypocritically.  Paul himself writes that it is none of his business to judge those outside of the church in 1 Corinthians 5.  So often people ask me why I have nonchristian friends and why I would even bother associating with them on the basis that I myself am a believer.  The answer?  Christ did precisely the same thing.  Described as the friend of sinners Jesus went and dined with thieves and drunkards, even allowing himself to be crucified with two wicked criminals.
As for your friend?  Perhaps she never had the same kind of faith you do.  Perhaps all she ever did was ride her parents' coattails and go to church because her parents made her go.  Perhaps her belief in Christ has been trashed by the way judgmental Christians are acting toward people she sees as humans, too.  if you want to debate your friend on the topic of homosexuality and say that it's wrong, it's not enough to say because God says so, particularly if her faith was never that solid.  It's a lot like being a child and walking in on your parents drinking and them telling you that it's wrong and that you should never drink because they said so.  My suggestion?  Simple, and you probably won't like it.  Pray.

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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She was a big christian high school. She would scream at me when I would bash her religion and maybe I'm getting my carma but it is shocking that college has changed her this much. It isn't just her I have had this happen with other people who used to be very big christians in school. I feel it is a disrespect to your self its all in your head and they want people to conform to what they want. I get mocked because I don't support this. I got mocked because I'm a virgin and want to wait until I find the right girl. This is a battle a battle of morals.

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Dude, you gotta just be her friend and hear her out on this. That's what friends do. If you close your mind to this immediately and just say no you're wrong, what is that saying, you were only her friend because she believed the same as you do. College, uni, whatever you want to call it is an eye opening experience. People can get swept in many different directions. It's your job as a friend to talk to her about it, and see that she's happy, not what your religion tells you in a book or books whose interpretation man has tried to skew ever since its creation. I do not believe in god, gods, or entities that reign supreme above us. I believe that you have to find your own way, try to answer these moral quandaries yourself. Don't close your mind to the possibility because someone interpreted words in a book that was written long before your great great great many times great grandparents were even thought of. Man, if we still lived by the bible, we'd be a very different society, we'd still be allowed slaves, at least for 7 years, then I guess you gotta let 'em go and get new slaves.

If you've place your faith in god, then answer this question. Would a being that has whole dominion over this entire earth, the moons and stars of our solar system, and beyond, perhaps even to the extent of the universe really care if you opened up to trans / gay / bisexual talks. I very much doubt it. If you believe in Jesus, that he died on the cross for our sins, then can you not live right and open to this a little, for if it is a sin, you will be forgiven if you ask. And finally, if this is a quandary for you that you cannot solve on your own, pray about it.

I hope this was at least somewhat helpful, at least since I don't share your point of view about it, I feel organized religion breeds extremism, always have. Extremism, secularism, and ignorance.

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@ironcross32,
Might I humbly ask, if you don't believe in God, what is it precisely you are denying?

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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Well, I certainly can't say anything that even touches the advice of others here, as I agree with them all and they come from perspectives which I really don't have but which I think are more suited to helping you. But nevertheless I'll try to share mine.

I've chosen not to accept a religion as a major factor in my life, because I've always been a very logical thinker and a skeptic. I know that even deeply religious people can be logical thinkers and skeptics, but I found that trying to accept a religion couldn't explain things in a way that made a lot of sense to me. A religion brings more questions than answers in my mind.

As a small child, when my grandfather would tell me about God, I found what he was saying difficult to believe. Even the simple things such as God is watching you and knows if you're sinning or doing good things." Or, "All creatures are God's creatures. My first question is, "How does God watch billions of people?" "How did he make all those creatures?" My grandpa would gently try to preach to me, and as I saw it, he would beat around my questions.
"You're making this up aren't you?" I would ask.
"No no!" he insists, "This is all true.. "You should read the Bible," he continues in a friendly but serious tone. "I'm sure they make Braille bibles, just read a little every day and you will know a lot about God." He would recite random passages, no more than maybe a few lines, but it all sounded otherworldly to me.
"Who wrote this Bible?" I would ask. "And Pap, I don't want to say you're making this up but... how do you know these things are true? Because we do make-believe things all the time..."
That about did it.
"The Bible is the truth," he would say, with a hint of bewilderment in his voice. "But I can see you don't believe it so we won't talk about it."
My grandpa and I are very, very close. But that subject was one we never did see eye-to-eye on. He took my questions as resistance. He was afraid I'd go to school and start talking about how my grandpa tells these crazy God stories, or that I'd tell my parents and they'd get mad at him because they are not nearly so religious as he is. So he promptly stopped talking about it with me. To be honest that was probably a good idea, since I didn't always know what was and wasn't appropriate to discuss with different people.

As I got older, I gradually came to believe and accept that there may or may not be a God. If there is, he/it (I prefer to personify him) will one day show me there is one, and will understand why I've not been certain of him before. But how he will do that, I don't even think about. I'll give him the chance to do the things I do not understand, but I simply cannot accept him as definitive. I believe that all you have to do to get God's attention is to accept that he may exist. Someone once told me, "God is whatever you want it to be," and this is something I strongly identify with.

On the converse if there isn't a God at all, the world evolved simply through evolution, if there was nobody watching over us, etc. I'd honestly not be surprised. Like I say, this is more or less how I believed things were until I was told otherwise. I suppose actually reading a Bible and doing research would help me to understand a lot of the things I seem to be completely ignorant of here, but I actually like being ignorant of it in the most respectful way possible. If God is all-knowing, all-being, then as human beings who are not all-knowing and all-being, how can we try to speak for him. I believe we can't.

I don't pray or consciously ask for God's help for most of the reasons above. When I was little I thought prayer was a waste of time. You're just talking to the air. God isn't going to listen to our humble requests for his help, he'd rather you just have faith in him. For all I know, he might be like, "You again? Just go away. You're irritating me and you ask too much." Now I understand more or less why people do it, but I am not very sociable anyway, and talking to an empty room, or trying to talk about this with another person who likely won't be able to give my points a fair evaluation... they give me too much anxiety and discomfort, so I don't do it. Some people have told me that I will feel better about prayer if I remember God is listening to me and not judging. But then again, I can't be sure he exists. I can't bring myself to assume he is listening. To conclude this part of my rant, if I ever do find out one day if God is or is not real, I hope to accept it and not be disappointed. I'm somewhat prepared for either. And if I can, I will let you guys know what I find out. smile

But that's only part of what I came to this topic to say. Even though I wasn't religious, I still thought, for a long while, that being gay was wrong. Being trans was wrong. Being poly was wrong. Being bi was wrong... you get it. But, when going to college I actually met people who were all of those things. One of them was a trans, originally female, now male, going out with another male friend of mine. That really was a pivotal point of my life when I was talking to them both and said, you know what? It's okay. They feel how they feel. And as little as I'd want to parallel that path, I can almost understand why they follow it, as I deal with weird attractions and perspectives on my own. I'm a firm believer that you can only know what it entails if you've done it yourself, and because I have my own strange preferences and thoughts, I won't, at least not anymore, try to change or judge how others feel about similar issues. Sadly the relationship failed, but it had nothing to do with being trans or gay.

I haven't gotten to a point yet where I could accept a gay or trans person as a boyfriend or girlfriend... For the former I don't have gay feelings though I can be reeeally close to guys but it's not the same, and for the latter I would be uncomfortable for example if a girl was a guy originally. But if she was poly I would be okay with that because I *might* be so myself. I still don't know for sure.

So in conclusion, I have my own personal boundaries, and you do too, but don't blame your friend for changing her perspective during college and adult life. Perspective and religion go hand-in-hand. For many people, college is the first place to bring a wide variety of perspective in an environment more conducive to sharing that perspective. IN high school you simply don't get that because there is a firm structure in place. But in college there's more freedom. It's possible your friend has done what I did, and talked to a person or even a couple who has these issues under their belt which she says you are being closed minded about. Times do change, and I wouldn't want to live under a faith where God held my attractions and feelings against me, so long as I am living a good life that doesn't involve intentionally hurting others.

I won't lie, this is all probably easy for me to say since I accept nothing in a religious context as an absolute truth. But being agnostic as I am, I still wish to depart with some advice which I strongly encourage you to consider when speaking to your friend. Asking for God's acceptance is far easier than asking for the acceptance of people, and I believe that is precisely what your friend is seeing and is why she has called you closed-minded. Being closed-minded is something that most human beings are excellent at. It couldn't hurt you to open up and try to accept that her beliefs are warranted. You don't have to jump in head-first. It's a process to accept new controversial ideas. But fighting them just for the sake of sticking to the previous ways does make you closed-minded, as accusatory as it may sound.

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Maybe your friend felt like she could be herself in the environment that she's currently in. Or maybe, as others have said, she secretly felt this way for a long time, and her defensiveness and rage was just her way of denying to herself that she wasn't exactly aligning with the Christian ideals she didn't believe in. Either way, it really is her choice. And I don't like it when people say that a location such as college changed someone. That's utter BS. They were probably going to change anyway, and just felt more free to do so in their present company.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

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interesting, what a topic, and so far no flame war. I have been through college  myself. One of the things you get is pressure to some degree or another to think or do in A way that your peers do. You also get some of this pressure from professors. Maybe it is in a way they require you to do your research and or write up your papers. I know that there was sources I could not use. Most if not all of these unused sources made sense. My tactic was to do my best to choose topics to write about that I could agree with or come up with points that I was ok with that the professors would be ok with. This was assuming that I was having to write a paper. Topics I would not write about, if I could get away with it, includes politics, religion, and what people do in their own bedroom, and here I am trying not to use some words in this topic. Some people just give in. Others hide who they really are deep down. Of course people also change. This does not mean that you and I have to like it. We may hate some things that people do. To me, some of this comes down to the question of what would you do when you see and hear people doing things odd and strange day in and day out for about four years or so? I am betting that you might pick up on some of their habits. The more I think about it, people are complicated beings. Just think of the thousands of not millions of interactions that we all have over our lives. I am betting that some if not a lot of that makes us each who we are. That does not mean that I have to like you, but just think about what all goes into making us who we are. With the jeans we get from our parents plus who we are around day in and day out plus what you see on the computer, TV, hear on the radio, and ETC all plays a part. I, myself, do mostly choose not to be around the LGBT community, but I do wonder how much of that is based off of who these people are around. If someone says they was borne with it, what causes that difference? Just wondering, and know I do not go around asking if so and so is a part of that community. Knowing me, I really do not want to know.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
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I'm surprised there wasn't a flame war. I just really believe in conservative values. And I don't buy into the argument that they were born that way. I thank you guys for your thoughts. if not accepting lgbt and trans makes me close minded than so be it. The thing was I used to support all this stuff then I realized how stupid it was to devote my entire life. The prob is that you have people hear in the states who are losing there stores or shops just because they don't want to make cakes for gay weds. You have a judge in KY who was put in jail because she refused a marriage for a gay couple. The shocking thing is that we didn't see this 8 years ago. Now if you don't go along with this you are sent to a doctor on campus who will give you drugs because they think you have a mental problem. They think your not with the main stream and you were forced to go along with things. And if your a virgin Christian girl on campus than you can just forget it. They will drag you through the mud because you want to remain peer and you don't want to sleep with other girls. Then on the other note they tell boys that they are the reason for rape culture on college campuses today. I'm sorry for ranting I am just tired of 8 years of this crap being shoved down are throat. Its forced acceptance.

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Just because I don't like what you do doesn't mean I don't like you as a person. That is what there making it out to be.

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Some will not see it that way, but to answer your question directly, your friend has changed in some ways for sure, and colledge may have played a part, but it is not the only thing that may not had changed them. Yes it may have came a shock to you. I know it would have to me, but I am not going to tell you what to do in this case. Are they still a friend worth keeping, or are you going to throw them away because of this. As for the cake thing, I do not think you really want me baking a cake for you if I really do not want to do it. Just saying.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
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Agreed, and honestly, forced psychiatric drugging has been a thing for way longer than you think. Look up the Teen Screen program, for instance, and don't even get me started on what I think of proponents of ECT, or electroconvulsive therapy. In short, in the former case, schools get paid a premium by the states that they reside in based on how many children attend who are registered as suffering from a mental illness of some kind. As for ECT, that's a whole other can of worms that I don't even want to attempt to open, but I think it is a cruel punishment in all but the most severe cases, only slightly less barbaric than lobotomy. So no, keeping minorities silent, and yes, I do agree that what it means to be a minority is rapidly changing in today's society, is not new, and it's no better or worse than it ever was. It's just different faces who are the poster children for suffering.

I've probably said too much in this post already, but what the hell, I might as well go all out while I'm at it. I can respect your decision to believe that gay/trans people aren't born the way that they are, but think about it like this. Did you ever question why you're straight? Did you ever even think about your attraction to girls? The only reason that it seems like gays deliberate so much about their sexuality is that they know it's not the norm. They know that they will be ridiculed for the choices they make about who they date and sleep with. But really, that's the only difference. At our core, we all have desires, and, unless somebody is going to tell me that they woke up one day and went, "Hmmm, I think I'll decide to be straight today." It sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? Do you think gays do this? If so, why? Only a psychotic break of the highest magnitude could cause such a drastic change of self-awareness, right?

I'm being dead serious asking these questions, by the way. I do not mean to start a flame war, or imply superiority or impose my beliefs on others. I just never received a satisfactory answer to this quandery, and it's something I've always been curious about.

Now, let me close this post by giving a little background about myself, so all of you can understand where I'm coming from. I consider myself a Christian. I was raised Methodist, but haven't attended church in many years, mostly due to the hypocrisy that many churchgoers display, to say nothing of how many so-called Christians treat those with disabilities. I also have a fair bit of trauma surrounding matters of faith which I won't go into here. With all of that said, I have also had enough experiences with both good and evil presences, for lack of a better term, to warrant a strong belief in both the power and anger of God. So here's what I personally feel. We were all given choices for a reason. I truly do not believe that anyone can help being gay or straight. I don't know why some people are born gay, but I do believe that everyone can adjust their actions according to what they think is right or wrong. And if something feels wrong, more people would do well to listen to their instincts and not do it.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

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I have to agree with hhurstseth405 here. This world expects us to conform, to think the way that it does. However, didn't God say that whoever loves the world or the things in it (not people, but things--ways of thinking that are contrary to God's law, material possessions, Etc.) is an enemy of God?
He also said that in the last days people would be lovers of pleasure and self, instead of being lovers of God? All this tells me is that Jesus is coming soon, so the time is now to get right with God before his Son returns.
However, I have to agree with some of the things others have said; she's your friend; all you can do is love her, the same way that Christ loves all of us. You can't change her; only God can. I'll keep the two of you in my prayers. God bless.

And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isaiah 42:16

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Okay, a lot going on in this topic and I'll tr to address some of it.
hhurstseth405, as a simple question, why exactly does the behaviour of some  idiots who say belittle someone for being a virgin reflect on the entire idea of whether it's okay to be gay did the christian who broke into a mosque in Canida recently and  shot a bunch of people represent all Muslims?
One thing I noticed a lot when I was in the states, is everything was extreme! was seen as a battle.

You were either republican or democrat, and the two hated  each other.
You were either ultra christian and believed in the truth, or you were ultra science and supported abortion and hated religion.  So much was polarized it often felt to me, who has tried the approach of evaluating different  perspectives and trying to be reasonable, quite uncomfortable. As we've often said on the forum, remember to discuss the issues reasonably, not simply getting into a hate over a specific group.
This is something that differs a lot in the Uk. When did one production, one of the boys was definitely bent on being a virgin until marriage, others knew this and it was just taken in stride.
There was no pressure or nastiness, occasionally good natured ribbing, such as the occasion when after the show everyone hugged each other and one of the girls remarked
"just a hug, you'll be alright", to which said boy responded "nope, god likes hugs!" big_smile.

As regards the question of gay people howeer, I have a story to share with permission.

My wife is a christian, and her parents are pretty  conservative.

One of my wife's best friends is a lovely lady  who happens to be gay.
She's been a friend of my wife's family since they were both at school, and even calls my wife's father "papa"

When my wife and I got married, I was extremely sad that said friend didn't  bring her wife with her to the wedding, for fear of the reift it might create with my wife's other relatives.

Recently, my wife's father has been extremely ill, and said friend, who is also a , took care of him.

One day, shee by mistake mentioned her wife and the thing came out.

did my father in law cut her off, or pray for her soul, or regard her as damned? This person who he'd known for 30 years? no.

confronted with the actual truth, that gay people are just people who happen to be attracted to similar gender, he simply accepted moved on, admitting that God has pretty much enough love for everyone.

It's easy to hate a distant stranger, or some pink shirt wearing lisping voiced gay sterriotype. But the truth is, most people who are gay are not really that different from people who are streight, they just happen to be gay.

Many years ago, in the middle ages it was believed that disability, especially blindness was a punishment from god.
If you read history, you'll find a huge amount of mistreatment of disabled people, on the basis that they had been cursed, that they were sinners.
Similarly, if you look at a lot of American history, there were many beliefs that people with dark skin were evil, indeed again the Bible was used to justify this (I believe it had something to do with one of Noah's sons).

Same goes for a lot of sexism.

Ultimately, The Bible is a book. how you interpret that book can vary hugely. One person, for example John Calvin, might interpret the bible to mean that persecution of those christians he disagreed with was fine. A slave trader might interpret the bible to justify what he was doing. Heck, jesus himself was quite irate at those who in his time interpreted scripture for own benifit or in order to mistreat others.

Part of believing in a personal god and attempting to have the sort of relationship with God which truely faithful people have, is! to not just blindly obey  someone else's rules, and especially not when those rules mistreating others.

Hope some of this makes sense and has at least given you something to think about. After all, a person who doesn't think is a robot, and I don't think God intended people to be like that.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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hhurstseth405 wrote:

Just because I don't like what you do doesn't mean I don't like you as a person. That is what there making it out to be.

Excuse me, but I'm quite confused. So let me keep this simple:
Do you like people if they are gay, lesbian or trans? If the answer is yes, then they feel they have been accepted. It's just as simple as that, at leased here where I come from. It seems like in this topic that things are different in the US, but I'm not sure.
My point is: If you still like people if they are gay, but don't have to deal with that, there shouldn't be any trouble. No religion fights, flamewars etc. If people are being accepted as they are, they are happy. No need to talk about gay stuff if people don't want to, but just accept people as they are. It's okay to tell people that you like them as the person, but you don't wanna deal with the gay stuff. If people won't accept that, they are having some serious issues.
So, let's skip all the damn religion stuff, shall we? Religion does not have anything to do by being gay or not. That's simply how people are, and not even religion can change that no matter how hard you try.

Best regards SLJ.
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@Slj, that is a nice idea in theory, and it's probably like that in Denmark.
Unfortunately as I said, the Us is far more extreme in terms of opinions.

people are not just people who happen to be gay they are super gaaaaay! and progressive and democrat etc etc. Often this goes in terms of parades and pride movements and such.
Ditto the other side, people like my in laws. That's why  father in law being able to accept my wife's friend who is gay was such a surprise.

Unless you've actually seen the way debates run over there and just how high emotions get, you really wouldn't believe it.
I'll say that was something I found extremely! to handle, since I am used to questioning, debating, thinkingand of course getting on with people.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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It is pretty bad over hear in the us. Dark to answer one of your points I have a friend who is gay. He helped me out in band a lot when I need help on to the field for practice or a show. My drumb mager was a lesbian and I didn't hate them. They were very nice to me. But when my dm told me she was lesbian I kind of felt bad for her boyfriend because they had been dating for many months. I'm suprised there isn't a lot more blind people who were religious. When ever I met christian people I was welcomed with open arms. This entire thing was all by design from the 45 goals of communism to take over America. It was proposed in 1963. There is 45 but these fit to what is going on now.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting spam and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
This is the full text if you want to read it. Those are the ones that stood out to me.
http://rense.com/general32/americ.htm

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20

This point was made a few posts back, and to summarize it with a quote that sums up my feelings about disagreement with religious texts. "Even the Devil can quote the scripture for his own purposes."

And thus the beast grew powerful, and fire and thunder swept the land. But Mammon stirred in their hearts, and the beast Foundered, and its Corpse arose, and commanded "thou shalt not fly in my name." And the blazes shall freeze cold, and the souls of the followers of Mammon shall learn to tremble in the
face of ice as they did before the fire.
from The Book of Ice, 10:13

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21

amen to post 20.  this is why as an apologist when dealing with discussions concerning apologetics I don't immediately turn to the bible to emphasise a point, as anyone interested will soon see.

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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22

@6 I don't think I'm denying anything except I don't feel blind faith is mentally healthy, I don't like the hypocrisy that some churchgoers display, and I don't like having Christian values shoved down my throat everywhere I go. I do not hate Christians, or anyone of any other religion based on that. There really are not that many individuals who I can claim I hate, and I try not to hate large groups of people. I have no problem with Christians talking to me about the subject if they will actually listen to my side of it, otherwise, if you want me to be ears open when you tell your side, I expect you to do the same when I rebut, rather than it going in one ear and out the other.

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23

Hello,
A bit late on this post, but I'll state my opinion.
I fully respect someone who is gay, lezbian, or trans, provided that their status of their gender is not taught but rather born with the person. Now, I've not read many scientific documents proving that transgender is a taught behaviour or a disorder of sexual approach. However, I could go on to support the second theory because I have had a guy in my class who was a gay (sorry if this word is offencive in your country). He fully accepted his status as a transgender person and was pro any love relationship with the people of his gender. We would often see him get along with other people sharing similar characteristics. Surely, these can be done by any person who is taught in a very early age to act in a certain way that identifies transgendered behaviour, but he also had a voice and a way of speaking which gave you the impression that he was neither a guy nor a girl. Some people may argue that he kept his voice in a high pitch so as to resemble a girl, but no way; he would always speak in the same tone and never change his voice. This is not certainly the first time I see this kind of person, because we had a guy in a show called Big Brother with identically the same characteristics. That's what leads me to believe that the transgender phenomenon is a disorder rather than a "negative" behaviour taught by anybody. What I really do not support is the marriage between two gays or lezbians. The reason is because firstly, the marriage between two people of the same gender does not lead to a new product of the marriage, which is the child, and secondly, it may prove to be very problematic for the children they adopt. If the children will grow in an environment where parents will act in a certain manner, it is highly likely that they will adopt that certain manner as well. If many gay couples will follow this trend, we will soon have a significant grow of transgendered population, as well as the aging population. It is very early to speak of this phenomenon, but I think there is nothing to prevent it from happening.

Speaking of religion, I gave up on it two years ago. I do believe in God, but I don't think that religion is the path to God. God is not that supernatural power which grants you the paradise, (the greatest place on the sky and the earth) where you will live like a king. Servants serving you at your will (how the heck can exist servants in the greatest place of earth and sky)! Also, a more critical approach of most of the religions today is the figure of God that they create in the minds of the people. Do not do this because the God is watching you. Do not speak badly about Islam or Christianity because God will send you to the burning hell. Now, a child, or even an adult with a good fantacy or imagination will be able to visualise the God as a dictator, or a police watch. A strong believer who follows devotedly the rules of religion will always be in a state of confusion or stress. For example, if you have a hot debate with a friend and you shout at her, and in a state of anger, you offend her badly. You will first think of having had broken the rule of God who orders you not to offend or prejudice others, instead of thinking about having had hurt the feelings of someone whom until some minutes ago, you used to call a friend. I personally see religion as a program. On this day you have to donate to poor people, tomorrow you have to celebrate, next week you have to fast, next month you have to celebrate in the name of a religious hero, and so on. But, for example, today I don't have the financial means to donate to people in need, or simply, I don't want to donate today, I want to donate whenever I feel. I want to donate next month, I want to donate in the New Year's eve or whenever I want to. Another thing I'd like to mention is the use of religion by priests to formulate rules which are apparently based on what exists in the religion and in the holy book. Their rules affect the population in different ways. In our country, for example, there have been many Islamic priests who say that the western culture is a culture which conveys idiocy, exageration, and it betrays all the rules of the almighty God. This was the point when I started to keep myself away from doctrines of my religion, but there are many other reasons which would lengthen this post more than anybody cares to read.

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24

@ironcross32,
Well phrased.  Usually when I present that question to an atheist I end up with a tirade or a rather stumped individual.  I'm glad that in this case, I got neither.  I'll never force the discussion any further than any individual is willing to take it.  You want to hear one even better than that?  I discourage atheists from going to church, since most of them have heard the word far too often for it to have much of an effect.  To those Christians who call me a hypocrite because I do so, I simply ask where they themselves have placed their faith.  if they believe in a loving God, why is it they don't believe a loving God who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and many things beside, cannot reach them?  While I fully believe that my purpose is whatever God has created me for, I do not believe my purpose involves numbing you to his existence, anymore than I believe my purpose is to prove it.

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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25

See, my thing is, and this may be completely off of what this conversation has turned into because I only read the first 3 posts, hating and not accepting something as okay are two different things. For example, I myself cringe at the thought of people changing their genders or dating the same sex, it's not something I myself would ever do so when others do it I am unable to understand why they would. On the other hand, I don't hate them; I just don't accept it as being okay because God says it's not according to his rules. Does that mean I hate them? No. Does it mean I wouldn't be friends with them? No. It just means I refuse to believe being LGBT is okay.

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