2016-12-17 10:55:44

Hi.
I'm running a danish website together with a friend of mine. For the last two years, I've experimented with servers in many different ways. Well, not advanced servers, but just a normal computer which is online 24/7, running a Teamtalk server and other things which I've experimented with.
Now it's time to get serious. I wanna get a small server which is stable and it shall be used for serious stuff. I'm just not sure on what to get.
For the last half year, I have used an old Macbook Pro (laptop) as my server. It have worked better than I thought, but it have two downsides: 1: This is a laptop, so it gets a ton of dust when not being used for months. This is not good, and it takes up some space on my desk. 2: The computer is old and it can die very soon.
Here is my requirements for a server:
1: I have no sighted help at all, so it needs to be accessible from I unbox the system until it all works as it should. That means no standard pc with Windows, because Windows is needed for some future projects.
2: Accessible remote control as much as possible. I'm traveling a lot and I need a solution which I can control from my laptop.
that is the only two requirements I have.
I'm thinking about buying a virtual server. But are they accessible like if I sat in front of the machine? How do I access them? Can I install Windows on it, install NVDA and then it just works?
I'm also thinking about a Rasberry pi, sorry if it's spelled wrong.) Why? Because I have full control from my iPhone. I can check the status, reboot the machine, turn it on, turn it off etc. I could install a Linux console, use Speakup and maybe install a virtual Windows and use this as a server.
The best solution which I might end up getting is a Mac Mini, and I wanna tell you why. This is not because of me liking Mac computers, but this is simply a matter of accessibility, and being able to set it all up on my own.
If I got a Mac Mini, I'll get a very small machine which is easy to put away and be controlled remotely.
Installing Mac OS is fully accessible out of the box. I have full access to the Unix Terminal which could be used for server stuff if I want.
Regarding Windows, I can install VmWare Fusion, and use the easy install to install Windows. This is fully accessible as well.
I can switch between Mac and Windows, or Unix or Windows.
I can do remote control on Mac OS. I just need to find a way to stream the audio.
I can use NVDA remote to remotely control the Windows, which I'm already using on my current server. That works no matter what solution I choose.
What would you recommend and why? is there any solution which I haven't thought about? I'm sure there are a ton of solutions which I don't know. smile Thoughts and ideas are very much welcome... big_smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-17 11:37:00

I think you might want to consider linux. Although not optimal for a desktop, on a server linux really shines. Let's compare a vps to the system you are proposing:
1. A cheep vps costs 5 dollar/month on digital ocean. You get 20 gb of disk space, 512 mb of ram and a 1 core processor, not sure which. Although this may not seem like much, you don't need to run a graphical desktop environment on it. So for basic things like website hosting, this will be ok. Setting up is also very accessible, you can do it via ssh, on mac os ssh is built in to the terminal, and on windows you can either install ubuntu on windows, which runs straight from your command prompt, and also has ssh integrated, or get plink, which is easier, but which won't work as well with things like commandline text editors.
You also won't have power costs, so a vps is often cheaper than a pc running from your home. You also get a fast internet connection, either 100mbps or 1000mbps, not sure. Regarding a windows vps, it can be done, but will be very, very expensive because the system requirements are a lot higher.

Roel
golfing in the kitchen

2016-12-17 13:41:13

Yes, I agree with poster 2.
But text editors aren't such a problem, you can install an FTP server on your remote machine or more secure SCP, and then edit files from your windows PC using Total commander for FTP and WINSCP for SCP

If you want to contact me, do not use the forum PM. I respond once a year or two, when I need to write a PM myself. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Telegram: Nuno69a
E-Mail: nuno69a (at) gmail (dot) com

2016-12-17 14:58:41

Thanks for your replies.
I'm not a Linux geek. How do I get up and running if I choose a VPS? Does SSH work out of the box? How do I install Windows on the machine? As I wrote in the first post, this is a requirement.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-17 17:27:34

Hmm, in most cases, you cannot install WIndows nativelly. You have to use wine or similar software

If you want to contact me, do not use the forum PM. I respond once a year or two, when I need to write a PM myself. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Telegram: Nuno69a
E-Mail: nuno69a (at) gmail (dot) com

2016-12-17 17:43:43

Sounds like I should go for the Mac Mini solution then. More comments are very much welcome.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-17 18:03:25

Windows VPS's will be considerably more expensive than a linux VPS. Not because you need higher system requirements, but because of the ridiculous licensing requirements imposed by Microsoft, the cost of which are transferred to customers by the hosting companies. If you insist on having Windows access, then the best way would probably be installing NVDA with NVDA remote on it though that will not work for iOS.


Accessibility of Linux servers is perfect straight out of the box as you'll always be logging in over text-only SSH. Most things you'd ever want to do will have been explained already on-line with a lot of guides. Things like web servers or TeamTalk all have linux binaries and generally work better than they do on Windows. It would be helpful if you could explain what exactly you want to do with it and what makes Windows a requirement, as you should be able to run some basic Windows applications, IE audio game servers, using Wine (This is how the primary RTR server is running as PureBasic's network support is very unstable under Linux)

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2016-12-17 21:19:54 (edited by jack 2016-12-27 21:00:46)

Yeah, I would really recommend you get a linux vps. Unless you actually! need to run windows, you can run windows programs through wine on linux. I'd actually recommend Vultr, as that has extremely affordable rates and even lets you do an hourly rate, sometimes not even paying a cent per hour based on your hardware requirements. Honestly, unless you plan on running things like Station Playlist Studio, there is absolutely no need for a windows server, and it really isn't worth the cost. On Vultr, windows server will bump you up to at least $20 per month, and that's not even with high system specs.

2016-12-18 07:37:41

The Mac Mini would be better if it were the 2012 model, quad-core. But the current Minis are still pretty good if your server load will be predictable. Virtualisation is one thing that probably throws this calculation off though.

Yours is not a bad idea, SLJ, but I have two Mac Minis on my desk and only one of them runs macOS (the other runs Linux), and the Mac can't be remotely accessed unless I'm next to it and can hear the audio. If you ever figure out how to stream audio, great, but I haven't yet. So you end up with a keyboard and pair of headphones in hand, even though the Mac can indeed do many things as a server; mine is used just to serve iOS clients with the caching server and also handles network backups. Linux, of course, is God's gift to geeks with skill in the command line. Windows is fully accessible with Remote Desktop.

Running a VPS is nice, but it still has two fundamental problems: it's somebody else's computer, and latency. The first is a matter of philosophy: why pay over the odds for someone else to do your work for you? But it has advantages of scalability at the lower end and makes it much easier to experiment or add and remove VMs, even though it introduces possible privacy concerns as do all clouds. The other is much more practical: you can't run a NAS from the cloud, because a network storage box has to be on your own LAN, by necessity.

As somebody here has said, it would be nice to know what your exact needs are, so we can advise you on the simplest route. I'd suggest a Linux box on your LAN as well as a Mac Mini, but since you'll want Windows as well I'm thinking the Mac is still the better option as long as you're prepared to lose a little flexibility and remote manageability. Linux in theory provides everything you need, but you would have to do everything without a head, which is certainly possible but challenging for a novice, and realistically it's impossible to do certain things like run proprietary software logged in (such as iTunes or Arq, in my case).

HTH.

Just myself, as usual.

2016-12-18 11:37:55

Thanks a ton for all your comments.
Regarding Windows: My plan is to host as many servers for online gaming as possible. Sound RTS, RTR and other servers regarding to audiogaming. So if those can run in Wine, Linux sounds like what I should go for.
Then I need to run a Teamtalk server, which I already have tried to run on Linux, or in Terminal on my Mac. Then I'm currently looking at an IRC server, which of course also will run in Linux.
My issue with Linux is that I don't have much experience with the terminal. This is not the commands, they are pretty easy for me to learn, since I started out with DOS as my first operating system back in the 90's. But all those different Linux systems are confusing me. I'm not sure on what Linux system I should get, and why. I don't know what I need to get it all up and running.
So, let's assume I would go for Linux. What do I exactly do to get everything up and running if I wanna make a Teamtalk server? I know how to configure a TT server, but what do I do from the very beginning? Or where can I read more about it? I assume I need to install a lot of things, but maybe it's easier than it sounds like...

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-18 11:58:43

If you just want to get started, you might want to go for debian. It's a system where everything is basically setup for you. for example, getting a website online is as simple as typing apt-get install apache2 in the terminal, and it will install apache and set it up with defaults. Regarding wine, just type in apt-get install wine, go to your executable with cd and type wine filename.exe, and you're done.
Sound rts is opensource, so just download the mac/linux version, and type server.py to launch it. Linux can be overwhelming at first, but if you spend a little time tinkering with it, you'll ask your self why you didn't do it sooner.

Roel
golfing in the kitchen

2016-12-18 17:39:52

Wow. Thanks a lot. Sounds pretty strait forward. Can I download Debian for free and for example install it on a virtual machine to try it for free before I buy a VPS? I could use some more experience before I consider buying anything. Where can I read more about Debian? Every time I look up anything regarding to Linux, I end up finding extremely geeking sites which are really bad at explaining the basics... smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-18 18:07:27 (edited by pitermach 2016-12-18 18:08:00)

I would personally recommend Ubuntu server over debian, mostly because Debian has really old and out of date packages. Using either won't be very different at all as they both use apt for packages and when it comes down to it is Linux, so what roel said can apply just as much to Ubuntu as it does to Debian.

To answer your question though, yes absolutely. 98% of linux distributions are completely free so you can just go to their homepage, get an ISO image of an installation disk and either virtualise it or run it as a live CD on a physical computer.
Ubuntu server download page
Debian downloads

In addition, a few VPS providers offer trials of their machines. For example Lynode, which is many blind people's favourites, has one though I think they are overpriced for what they offer. Setting up Linux on a VPS isn't as complicated as setting it up on a VM.Because the hosting companies have all of the various Linux distributions on their server, all you have to do is select which one you want to use and it will be installed for you automatically and you will just be able to log in and start working right away.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2016-12-18 18:08:09

Installing Debian is actually annoyingly hard in a VM. Here's where a cloud provider really helps: they've already installed and configured the server to start up an SSH server for you to use, so you log straight in remotely. I suggest you experiment in a cloud on a cheap-as-chips machine, where you can do no harm to yourself and where resetting is dead simple. Linode are good guys, and have good guides. There are cheaper options but in your case I think you need the support.

Just myself, as usual.

2016-12-18 19:11:01

I have just looked at Lynode, and wow it seems great. Really useful guides to get started. Thanks a lot for mentioning that. I think this is what I'll end up choosing.
Currently I only have two questions left:
1: If I wanna start out by setting up a Teamtalk server, how do I then get the required files on the server? How do I put my already configured server on the system? Is there an upload feature on the website where I can upload files to the server?
2: If I choose Ubunto and control the server via SSH, will I then automatically avoid the graphical interface? Will the graphical interface even be activated and use up the resources on the server?

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-18 21:02:58 (edited by jack 2016-12-18 21:07:16)

No, it won't. The command line will be used probably because no desktop environment is installed. Plus, even if it was, linux desktop environments really do not take up that much resources on the server. This isn't windows, and Linux is very! well respected for being a lightweight operating system, thus making it a favorite option for servers. Nearly all website hosting providers run their server on linux installations for this very reason, it's strong enough to almost guarantee continuous uptime. Vultr is a cheaper option, and if using the same distribution of linux, Linode's excellent guides can still help you with controlling the Linux environment in general.

2016-12-19 19:39:48

Ubuntu Server does not even include the files required for a GUI and I suspect the debian images offered by the VPS providers don't, either. So no, you won't have to worry about GUI processes using up any resources and you'll be exclusively dealing with a CLI.
Installing things will go in either of 2 ways. The first, which you'll be using most often, is a package manager (apt for debian and Ubuntu). If you have ever used Homebrew on your Mac, then this is the exact same concept. If not, think of it like an app store and software update service in one. The most important packages, like Apache (web server), git, the bash shell, SSH server, text editors like vin or nano, various utilities like wget or curl for downloading files, programming languages like Python or perl or even the linux kernel, will be installed and updated with it. So usually it will come down to typing in sudo apt-get install apache or whatever else you'll need, then saying yes to confirm the installation; You will also be able to update every package on your system at once with sudo apt-get upgrade and you'll want to do this once every few weeks to make sure you're running the newest version of everything.

If something isn't already in a repository, you can install it manually. Most Linux applications are compiled manually by downloading their source code from a Git repository and running a make command. This usually is explained in the readme for whatever you'll be installing and these commands are all done on the server itself.
In the case of Teamtalk you don't have to compile anything. Just get the latest linux debian archive from the bearware site (which also works on Ubuntu), extract it and start the server. You can just download files onto the server directly using wget, then extracting them. If you ever need to upload or download a file onto your computer, you can log in over SFTP by entering the exact same address, username and password as for SSH. Every FTP client I'm aware of now supports SFTP connections, IE transmit, Forklift or commander one on Mac, or filezilla or winSCP on Windows.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2016-12-19 19:52:41

Wow, thanks for this really awesome reply... So, I can just type wget and then the direct URL to a zip file on a website to download it? It's nice that the server supports ftp access as well. It's starting to make sense regarding to how it works... big_smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-20 01:09:31

Yes. That would download just the file. But (at the risk of putting a damper on things) it's a teensy bit more complicated than that ... the shell characters that might be in URLs need to be escaped. The best way is to use single quotes, or apostrophes, to surround your URL; then any character, except the apostrophe itself of course, will pass by OK.

And wget, itself, is quite a beast. Learn it by reading its documentation. There is a man page (type "man wget" to view it, press space to scroll, press q to quit the pager). Type "wget --help" for a quick summary. "info wget" for the full documentation, or better still, just Google it and read the documentation from GNU.

In fact take this as a general recommendation to go forth and experiment and learn and read. You can't go wrong. "man" followed by a command, "info", and online help, as well as directories under /usr/share/doc, contain a whole load of useful information ...

Oh, and feel free to ask your questions. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2016-12-20 08:58:26

Awesome, thank you. It feels kind of retro, just like the old DOS days, but with a much more advanced system... smile
Is there a simple Linux console I can install on a virtual machine which includes a screenreader to learn the basics? Can I just install the Ubuntu server and activate a screenreader? I don't need the graphical interface but just the console and of course a working screenreader which also talks during the installation.
I have installed Ubuntu long time ago, but that was the graphical interface. I'm not sure on how to install the console based Ubuntu server, and I'm not sure on how to activate a screenreader as well.
I would like to try out the basics before I buy if it's easy to install. I'll not set up a working server, but just do the basics commands. If it's not easy to set up, I'll wait to the beginning of january to get the most out of my money, and then buy a cheep VPS.
Or, maybe I should just create a test folder on my Mac to try out the basic commands, but I'm afraid to mess up my Mac if I do something wrong... smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-20 18:14:06

You don't really need to do that, both Linode and Vultr have trials of some sort. In fact, why not give Vultr a whirl and receive some free credit while you're at it!
The good thing about this is that your trial is not limited by days, you just get some credit that you can use as you will to try it out. Whether you want the hourly rate or the monthly payment, you can use this and any credit you add to your account in the future for things like that.

2016-12-20 20:12:51

Awesome, thank you. I'll look at  this.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-20 21:39:29

Alright, cool. It's a referral link, so if you use that you'll get even more free credit. I believe the lowest priced vps on an hourly rate, a fairly decent starter, is $0.007 an hour.

2016-12-26 11:50:24 (edited by SLJ 2016-12-26 11:55:03)

So, I'm trying to link my credit card to my account on vultra.com. I can't agree to the terms of service, because there is no checkbox or any other accept button to click. When I click link credit card, it says I should agree to the terms of service. I'm currently using Safari on my Mac. Maybe I should try an other browser.
Edit: I have just tried with Internet Explorer, Firefox and Chrome, but none of those browsers let me accept the terms. How did you do that then you created your account? Maybe they have changed the website?

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2016-12-27 06:15:19

Maybe they did change the website. Is there a line of text that says I agree to the terms? You may have to try and virtually click that with the mouse.