51 (edited by Soul Keeper 2016-05-01 02:34:29)

It's literally basic math.
First, you have to realize this:
sightedPeople > blindPeople
to quote from a good friend of mine:
the population of the world is ruffly 7099000000, out of this number there are roughly 285000000 blind  and parshelly  sighted people, this equals about 4% of the world population.
With this we can factor that there are roughly 6580000000 people  that do not suffer from some form of visual impairment, which is roughly 96% of the world population.
Now with simple logic we can derive this inequality:
sightedPeopleMoney > blindpeopleMoney
A quick google search reveals that the average income across the world is $1,480 a month.
Now let's be generous here, and lets say only about... 25% of all sighted people are interested in games.
6580000000/4 =
1645000000
A little over five times more than the approximate total population of blind people.
Now lets assume this ends up being a very obscure game, even with all the promotion. Lets say only 1%... actually, no, 0.1% of this number hear about this game.
That's still 164500.
There are 15460 members in this forum, counting bots, spammers, people who can't afford to donate, etc.
Even if you assume everyone in this forum is extremely interested in this game, and so donate 10 dollars, they still wouldn't match up to 164500 sighted people donating 95 scents a piece, by a factor of 2000 dollars.
Math session over, class Adjourned.

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Hello.

@soul keeper. That may be basic math for you and others who are good at math but for me, that would not be basic. smile
I know that the sighted population is huge compared to blind, vi and disabled people.

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I for one am impressed with this first effort. I figured out what the problem was, you just put the wrong dll into the folder, it was msvcp110.dll, it needs msvcr110.dll, simply putting that dll from braillemon into the colors folder fixed the issue. The game also crashed for me when trying to press w in the woods. I will happily contribute to your kickstarter. Keep up the great work.

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Ok I will see it after my exams.
Thanks
Ishan

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Slight rant here. The fact that accessibility was implemented from the start says a lot. Views won't be popular here, but dear god people are being super super rude. You're willing to settle for really crappy games that have you press a button when you hear a sound with no other content, but when something decent comes out heaven forbid you give constructive feedback. Rant over, cue the nonsensical ranting.

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Hi daigonite. I can make sounds for you even ones not meant for accessibility if you'd like. Add me on Google hangouts [email protected] if you're interested.

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hello.

@death if you're talking about my posts and I'm pretty sure you are. No, I am expecting the best. That is why I gave a list of things I'd do if I was making a game for both blind and sighted people.

Anyway lets's not make this in to a he said she said thing because that will not help the development of the game.

I'll download the demo again and see if I can give steps on how to make this bug appear when fighting and using the inventory.

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Hello.

Here is how I found out that speech doesn't work for me in the items inventory menu:

1. I found the orange juice and mittans.

2. I find a battle.

3. I press enter on atack.

4. I pres w and hear my HP.

5. I choos to atack for both members of my party.

6. I choos fight when it's my turn.

7. I choose the item inventory option and I am unable to arrow up and down through the items I had. I thought i might be able to use the orange juice to restore HP.

I also got this error when on the items inventory screen in the fight menu. This was after pressing the number 5 on my keyboard.

___________________________________________
############################################################################################
FATAL ERROR in
action number 1
of Key Press Event for 5-key Key
for object battle_workflow_handler:

Variable battle_character.hp(100011, -2147483648) not set before reading it.
at gml_Object_battle_workflow_handler_KeyPress_53
############################################################################################

I hope this helps.

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59 (edited by Figment 2016-05-01 15:18:49)

brad wrote:

Hello. I understand that you are making a game for the sighted and are adding accessibility to it. With what you are saying,, I will not be donating to this project.

...

I guess what i'm trying to say is this; remember both audiences are equal and should be treated as such. Do not put one above the other. At the moment it seams that you are putting your sighted players above your blind players. That is why I will not donate.

I'm sorry but I have to side with Brad on this.

I'm tired of being treated like a second class citizen just because I can't see. I'm tired of products that are inaccessible to the visually impaired and of products where accessibility is only an after thought instead of being designed in from the beginning.

What's really disappointing and discouraging is how many visually impaired people are willing to accept the idea that they only deserve second class consideration from society. Honestly, the only way we are ever going to get the same consideration and accessibility as sighted people is if we stand up for our rights and demand it.

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60 (edited by daigonite 2016-05-01 16:49:55)

People are greatly escalating this situation when there doesn't need to be any escalation.

First off, people really shouldn't be treating that just because I'm moving accessibility down the line of features that it implies that I feel that blind people are second class citizens. The way I've built accessibility mode means that it's simply a feature, and like every other feature in the game, it's not going to have everything completed with it. All that I produced in the game thus far was coded in less than 48 hours, of course it's going to need more development - the point is to introduce blind players to the concept.

Now, I could spend two weeks developing the perfect accessibility mode but then that's two weeks that I didn't spend developing every other aspect of the game, like menus, battles, overworld, ect. and that's something that affects every player of the game.

Like I've stated before, the problems with accessibility mode mainly have to do with copyright issues, and a bug that Brad didn't report until just now. I'm abstaining from using other people's assets at this time, so I will have to respectfully decline any offers.

However, a complete accessibility mode is required in the completed game because even in the sighted run it is used for some parts of the story. So don't act like just because it's not complete now that it won't be in the future; it's just that the purpose of this demo is that - it's a demo. I want people to get an idea of what I'm creating to spur interest in possible investment.

I'm honestly really disappointed that the community is interpreting my efforts in such a negative way - I know I've fallen behind on bug fixes with Braillemon but I'd figure you guys would know that I'm not doing this just to "treat you guys like second class citizens".

Seriously, calm down everyone, the demo being incomplete is because it's a DEMO. That's the entire purpose of demos.

[ a-t ] Xoren - The only difference between the modes is a config file, I'll release both as one game and likely have a separate program that allows easy activation of accessible mode.

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Holy shit, the entitlement is real here. Be thankful that a dev even wants to make something for us to begin with, instead of being a bunch of winy ass hats. Also remember that this, is, a, concept, demo! Let me repeat that for you guys. This! is! a! concept! demo! I'm frankly disgusted with you complainers.

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If you guys are going to bitch about how you're not donating but these are the "problems of the game," I feel no guilt in telling you you're selfish and stupid. <3 See how I put the <3 to soften the blow?

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Hi I have a question when I am in the main menu in this game I can not for example save the game or check inventory, by pressing enter.
I am currently in place like forst and here is a place where I can press enter on it and this menu is displayed but I can not use any option.
Also I was found a bug in battle menu when I am pressing enter on fight first it says test and after pressing enter again I can see which enemy I can hit,.

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There was a bug that made it so that you couldn't open the menu more than once after a battle, is this the same issue? If so try redownloading since I've fixed that bug.

Regarding the test issue, that was an oversight. Although I don't known the top of my head if that's been fixed as well.

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Hay Rachel, please don't let others get you down.
This is something that's never been done before.
Please don't stop making this game.
Later!

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For those who are demanding that accessibility be a priority venture on daigonite's part, I propose the following exercise. Create a simple game (a quick side scroller, for instance). You must make it both sonicly and visually appealing, but you may go about it in which ever order you choose. You'll be scored separately for both aspects of the game, but must meet a one-week deadline to propose the game to potential adopters. The target demographic for the game is predominantly visually impaired, with a ratio of 70% VI players to 30% who are sighted. You are solely responsible for procuring any resources necessary for the project.

Now. Being that most of us on the forum are either totally or partially visually impaired, our interest will probably be in making the game sound great, as well as relay pertinent information to the player, without overwhelming him or her. How many of you will end up working on the sounds and accessibility first, since the interest margin weighs more heavily on the side of the VI audience? How many of you will work on the visual aspect first?

Can you make an acceptable product in the one week margin which possesses top-tier sounds and accessibility features, but also sports gorgeous graphics to please your sighted customers? Can you do so whilst checking and double checking for bugs?

The point here is that you guys are expecting version 3.9 of a game that's only in a concept stage. You're making demands for a game which, lets be honest, you may or may not even buy in the end. You're expecting the developer to be completely able to implement all accessibility features, as if she were blind herself, and thus has a first-hand understanding of what you as a player expects. You're expecting her to alienate her larger market of backers, just to make sure a relatively small group receives attention first, a group which, as I have pointed out in my previous post, has had a track record of not even donating to projects committed to their needs and expectations.

I quote from the first post:

All of the assets are made by me, including the visual ones.

This means the game is primarily targeted at a sighted demographic, with a generous bonus that it will also contain accessibility features! The fact that the game focuses on colours (a VISUAL concept), means it probably was conceived with sight in mind... You know, since the developer is sighted.

Have any of us sat down and, with a visual impairment, decided "Hey! I'm gonna make a game to beat Dark Souls 3!" We work with that which are most familiar. In Daigonite's case, she's going to make a game that involves visuals, because, you know, she's sighted. That's her primary sense... that's what she's familiar with. I doubt she'd just wake up one morning and say "I'm gonna make a program to print out tactile graphics, so I can feel them!", nor would you as a visually impaired person just wake up one day and say "I'm going to paint me a mural of the celestial heavens."

If I condescend in my point making, it's only because you guys haven't exactly been respectful of Daigonite, and it drives me up the wall that you guys aren't able to consider the development process from her point of view. It's easy enough to say "I demand accessibility!", but if you don't understand the various facets of project management and game development, such demands can only be detrimental (to both the developer and the community).

Need I remind us of the debacle of wherein visually impaired players inundated an iOS game developer with requests, complaints, and what not so much that he flat-out refused further interaction with the AG community? What a loss! What a waste!

In no wise am I saying we need to praise and worship those who implement accessibility, nor am I saying we shouldn't advocate for accessibility. On the contrary, I urge all of you to make well informed arguments and petitions to improve or introduce accessibility where possible... Demanding it ruthlessly, however, is the draconian method which will only alienate potential developers from including us in their plans.

I sincerely hope Daigonite does manage to add accessibility, but I also hope that she manages to interest enough people, sighted or not, to fund her project. If that means she needs to work on making it pretty first (reality check: eye candy sells, just ask Apple), does it really hurt you guys to have the slightest modicum of patience? Is her game providing an essential function worth the demands and recriminations, despite the fact that accessibility's already in her plans?

In conclusion, I think several of you need to examine the reality of being an independent game developer. Daigonite's not Sony, nor is she Microsoft, nor is she EA Games. If she were, she wouldn't even be listening to your undiplomatic demands for features. Since she isn't any of these big publishers, she needs to market her product harder, and numbers win the day. It's not discrimination, it's practicality. Give her a break, support her work, and you'll have a developer who enjoys contributing to the AG community, rather than one who finds it tedious and unprofitable. We've already had dedicated developers leave the community because of this "give it to me now!" mentality, do you guys intend to drive more off?

Kai

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Great post Xoren (Kai).  Since daigonite is a sighted developer, it does make sense that her games would be made with visuals in mind from the very beginning.  To add more to that idea, handling visuals first might have also been done because that is how she would plan out her game anyway.  Even though only some of my games have had any sort of visuals in them, each and every audio game I've made started out being built with visuals instead of any accessibility support (actually I think obsessive compulsive was the exception to this).  As a sighted developer myself, I think visually so I start every project building them with primitive graphics which I later tear out and replace with screen reader menus and sound effects.  We all have our own ways that work best for us, so that we remain productive and enjoy what we're working on.

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Hello. I thumbed up Kai's post. He and aprone are right. I should have thought of Daigonite being sighted and the fact that she would use sight first and put visuals first. I feel quite silly now. Hopefully the next time something like this comes up, I will think before writing.

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Well said brad!  big_smile

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Hello,
@brad, @figment, I think the phrase think before you leap is required here. Of course sighted people will use the sighted aspects first, whether it helps them or the audience, and that is very important in my opinion, as sight is that person's strength. What is the point in making a game that doesn't even play to the person's strengths? That will take even more of a commitment. They'll lose interest in their project. If we lose another developer because of you guys complaining I will definitely not be happy. It will be worse if we lose one of the only sighted developers we have because we don't have many of them.
Aprone and Daigonight might be the only two.

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71 (edited by daigonite 2016-05-02 18:48:42)

All of this is very true, and while I agree with you Aprone, the main reason why I'm not implementing accessibility first is because I want to draw in a large sighted audience and interest them with the fact that the game is also accessible. However, later in the game they will be forced into that accessible mode because of plot related issues.

To a sighted player, it's essentially a goofy RPG that draws heavily from Golden Sun and Suikoden, that utilizes a lot of different weird parts of a computer that people don't normally think about (most notably text to speech) to express parts of the game.

The story is primarily about colors, yes, but there are blind characters in the game and more importantly the story is about how a society surrounding color causes people who can experience color to essentially be controlled by it, while the blind are rejected for not understanding it, but are free from the binds of seeing life in color. Color is essentially a vague analogy for various social differences. I kind of see the game as being a game about colors and blind people, lol.

So yes, full accessibility will be implemented. However, I don't want to give out many more details because I want to take the world by surprise.

Regardless of how the community acts about it it's a fundamental part of the game so it will be there, although I have no hard feelings since it seems like everyone was just jumping to conclusions.

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Hello
the truth that I am very disappointed with most comments here.
I think that you are a bad grateful to Rachel, she is one of the few developers seers that we have, and I think the main thing to give her is patience and all our support.
Rachel, to be honest, I was not excited when I read the first message of this topic, however when I saw your other comments and downloaded the demo, your project I found very interesting.
I am a player who lost sight in my adolescence, so for me the colors are very entertaining.
good luck with this game and you ignore the negative comments.
greetings and thanks.

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Hay Rachel, you might want to take a closer look at what you uploaded for Colors default 1.0.0.3.
It's braillemon!
Yeah you might want to change that.
Though if it's an even newer version of braillemon than what's already up for the current test version of Braillemon, just rename the colors file, then reupload the real colors file.
I got this from the download link on the colors web site.
Thought you auda know, (laughs).
Later!

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Yeah I noticed about an hour after uploading lol

Should be fixed now

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75

Hi Rachel.
Sorry for my late reply regarding to the consoles. What I ment was: Like others have said, some blind people does also have consoles. We are playing fighting games and other games which are pretty much playable by blind people. When the game is originally a game for sighted people, with accessibility build in to make it playable for blind people as well, I think it would be worth it to launch it for consoles as well in the future if possible.
I haven't had time to try out the demo yet. Keep up the great work.

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