2015-07-09 11:11:19

I've noticed we've recently developed into something of a pattern of escalating tention and over all arguement that has often not been productive. This often seems because people get court up in the moment, or the emotions or their own perspective, and do not consider the over all flow of the conversation, what is being said, or what much of the context is.
So, I thought in the interests of making people more aware of what does and does notpromote harmonious iscussion on this forum, I'd share a few observations.

Disclaimer!

This is not a moderation issue, the moderation hat is off, these are by no way forum policies, these are just the ideas, thoughts and observations of DArk.
However, by the same tocan, this is a set of observations by someone who has been required to sort out a large proportion of the drama we've had over the years. Furthermore, I will say being a qualified ethicist, and actually required to chare debates in my time at university, I'll say I've probably seen more than my fare share of arguementation of one sort or another.
So, while none of these are official announcements by any stretch of the imagination and anyone is free to disagree, dislike or otherwise hold adverse views, bare in mind these are observations based on at least a reasonable degree of experience.

1: Don't mistake an opinion for an arguement.

This one is quite commonly a cause of hassle.
"I don't like swamp because I find it boring and confusing" is an opinion. True, I have utilized the clause "because" in this sentence and attributed to Swamp two properties to explain my dislike, however those qualities are ones that "I find" when playing Swamp, not ones that I am atributing to Swamp universally. I am not drawing an opinion of Swamp players or of Swamp's over all quality as a game, I am stating my personal view. You can of course disagree with my view in this case, or ask why I think as I do, however because the statement "I think" is employed and this is an opinion, there often isn't too much point in violent disagreement. My opinion that "I don't like Swamp" makes no aspersions on those who do like Swamp, or on swamp's quality as a game, it just states my own relation to swamp, that I dislike it, and usually that is where an opinion ends.

"Swamp is a bad game because it is boring and confusing"

Is a propositional arguement. It attributes the qualities of being boring and confusing to the entity swamp and therefore declares that the possession of those qualities make Swamp a bad game. here I am making a categorical value judgement. I am attributing qualities to swamp, and thus am making an arguement which may be disagreed with quite freely, although after you propose a counter arguement I might well argue for my perspective in return. This is after all a discussion! forum and the operative word here is "discussion"

Btw, I use Swamp as an example here precisely because! cryticisms of Swamp are likely to fuel an emotional reaction, though of course bare in mind Dark actually thinkks Swamp is pretty awesome big_smile.

2: Disagree with the issue not the person.

It is quite possible to disagree with either of the above statements, either the opinion or the arguement, (though as I said disagreement with the opinion is by necessity limited).
You might ask me "why do you think swamp is boring", or "why do you find Swamp confusing" when i express my opinion.
If I express my belief that swamp is a bad game, you may of course disagree if you Believe swamp is a good game.
However, fundamentally, this is a disagreement about Swamp, not about the people who play Swamp, the people who enjoy swamp, or even the people who argu against my or your current perspective on Swamp.

If I were to say "Well you only like swamp because it has gore and zombies and appeals to children, and you only argue against my view because your a child"
I am no longer addressing the issue of Swamp. I am attempting to devalue the views of those who disagree with me by explaining their arguement relative to themselves, I am not saying why I! think Swamp is a bad game, I have in short moved the arguement out of the realms of discussion about the issue to a denigration of those who hold opposing views.

It is just as insulting as if I'd said "you only think that because your a moron"

This is a frequent sauce of Drama, when instead of keeping the conversation strictly about the issue under discussion one side or the other goes into discussing the views or motivations or personal history of those who hold opposing views. Humans are complicated creatures and trying to say "why someone thinks as they think" is not an easy matter, indeed I would hazard the guess that a person who violently disagrees with someone else's opinion is probably in the worst position of saying why! the first person holds that opinion! big_smile.

So, in discussions and when disagreeing, please stay on the subject at hand and maintain a respect for your fellow members even if they disagree with you.

3: contrary views are not bullying.


Different people think different things, and as an American president said "you can't please all of the people all of the time"
This is a discussion! forum. Whether opinions  or reasoned arguements, people's views will differ, and if you don't want to hear different opinions or counter arguements, you shouldn't be on a forum in the first place.

4: Avoid entrenchment.

In opinion wars, once opinions have been stated, that is pretty much that. This is the difference between a reasoned arguement and an opinion.
If I say "I just don't like Swamp", and you say "Well I do" well that is pretty much the end of the conversation.

Major drama frequently begins when one side dislikes another side's views, and the first side dislikes the dislike and so on, which is all pretty pointless.

5: Telling someone to ignore it.

this is a discussion! forum as stated previously, and generally speaking people like expressing their opinions or reasoning out arguements. If I were to post a topic with the title "Swamp is the worst game ever" and then state how much I disliked swamp, I'm sure I'd get a truck ful of contrary views pretty quickly.
If I then respond with "why bother answering this topic, just ignore it" I have effectively denied other people the right to their opinions or to use their reasoning faculties.

I'm effectively saying "Well if you don't agree with me, don't bother expressing your views here"

As said previously, "discussion" is the operative word, and that means respecting the views of others, even if you violently disagree with them, as well as having yours respected.

6: "I have a right!" 

Discussions about rights or any other ethical concept are of course fine. However, as said previously discagreements or exchanges of opinion should remain about the subject. Yes, everyone has a right to express their opinion or construct arguements or counter arguements, however reitterating this right  as opposed to exercising it in a respectful fashion really won't aid discussion at all, sinse of course it necessitates a confrontation. If you think your right is being infringed and your experiencing personal attacks, ---- well tell the mods, don't protest to other members.

7: Do not mistake difference in preference or knolidge for an attack.

Yes, comparing say screen readers or games or anti virus programs or anything else is fare enough. However, if a person is say using a given product and requests for assistance with that product, this is not an opportunity to open the gates on a debate.
Someone who asks a question about Jaws doesn't want a long sermon on why their stupid for using Jaws and should switch to Nvda, or someone who posts a question about Avg doesn't want a discourse on why Avast or norton is better.

People get very attached to products for some reason, often just preference, however if someone is not directly asking to compare software or equipment or anything else, and is just asking or information, a long semi zealous rant about the good qualities of the user's preferd product and the bad qualities of what the person asking for information uses will definitely not help! indeed it's quite a good way to discourage newbies.

Thus, be certain that when your answering someone's question, (especially when they're asking for assistance), that you actually! are answering their question not just getting on your favourite pro Avg or Pro Nvda or pro insert whatever else soapbox.

Conclusion.

I'm really sorry to post yet another topic on the subject of drama, however given a recent occurrence yesterday I found it necessary, sinse frankly it seems people are forgetting what a discussion forum is for or the rules of civilized debate, and I'm getting a little tired of seeing escalating tentions over matters that really don't warrent them that then necessitate brute force moderation interventions, rather than people coming to their senses.

Discussion and arguement is a good thing, sharing views and opinions is a good thing, but if you can't respect and listen to other members, then it becomes entirely pointless!

And btw, if this topic degenerates into a similarly over baked ridiculous arguement I shal go and bang my head upon the wall! and all of you will be responsable for me having a sore head!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-09 16:37:55

I hate these rules because they are stupid and annoying!
big_smile
anyway, I am really sad that a post like that needed to be written. Just...chill out okay? it's kind of annoying seeing a new flamewar topic every day I hit new posts. Thanks.

This is not a signature.

2015-07-09 16:55:08

Lol Druhv, you got me with the first line of your post, I thought "doh! here we go again!"

I agree it's not good this had to be said, indeed I had the idea of posting this a while ago but refrained in the hopes it would not be necessary, still I'd rather explain some facts than continually get into shenanigans.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-09 17:45:17

Well sometimes I drag myself into this sort of drama when I shouldn't be. and I am guilty of some of the charges listed in post 1. The fact is I can discuss topics peacibly when other people are, but I tend to get miffed when all the bashing starts up and I get myself in the middle of it. As I see it, In the topic about FS and their EULA, a certain someone was accusing people of acting like children, ok, so maybe the name that was being bandied about is less than respectful but why was that the sticking point, and those who used it were judged for using it. I've used the name in casual conversation and got a laugh or two out of it, is it really necessary to come down on someone and accuse them of acting childish for using that sort of name, I don't think it is. And people are judged a lot here, and I don't see how it is entirely necessary. Look, I'm 29 and I do things sometimes that could be considered immature or childish but I don't do that all the time. I pay my bills on time every month and have a handle on my financial situation, people need to realize its ok to be a little immature at times just as long as you're not harming other people while indulging themselves. And look, is life worth living if you're so serious all the time, I mean, life's as much  as having fun than it is to working, and its a balance that you have to strive to keep in equallibrium. Now let me ask a question, is that name harming anyone who works for FS? I mean because of that name, are they less likely to receive business, I severely doubt it. So I found the responses from a certain someone to be a little out of line there. Now let's jump over to the 4chan topic. I've never even heard of 4chan, the only reason I responded in that topic was because I was seeing Terminator being attacked by, let's just say that certain someone. Which, by the way, I have seen others being attacked because they posed an opposite viewpoint, and I was starting to get annoyed that this was happening yet again, so I responded. Now if I hadn't responded maybe the topic would have ended, and maybe I should consider just ignoring these types of attacks on people and just not responding. Well now what I see is hypocrisy because that certain someone is acting childish where before that person was judging others to be. And that last post where the person in question made a derogatory remark about the ways other countries handled their affairs, I found that to be across the line as well. That was my motive in responding in that topic and I made things worse unintentionally.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2015-07-09 19:01:48

Hello,
You don't need to justify yourself. I won't comment on anything, because I know...sigh. I'm going against rule 2 again. Anyway, as dark said, let people be, attack their arguments.

This is not a signature.

2015-07-10 00:54:14

By great almighty King kong's colossal hairy back side!! the Fs topic is closed! finished! ended! dead! buried and finito!
We don't need justifications or accusations or inquests or  any dam thing that will drag this stupidity out longer! 

That was why I posted these rules in the first place, to try and make people more aware of exactly how we got into that sort of quag mire and to avoid doing so in the future, not to march streight back in again.
This isn't to say discussing Fs on the forum is out, just that discussing that! discussion about fs is out.

I'm not going to play favourites or say who did what, just whoever did whatever, read the above points and don't bloody well do it again!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-10 04:53:38

First of all, I am guilty of some, or all?, of the offenses listed in Dark's message and for that I ask that you accept my opologies. When I was growing up, because of the heavy and strong glasses I had to wear, I was bullied and teased a lot through out my school years. Because of that, I tend to come on stronger than intended, I try to control it, but sometimes it gets away from me. It's never my intent to abuse or offend anyone, or to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. If I have, again, I apologize and can only say that I will try to do better in the future.  Dark, if you think this might be a source of on going problems, just let me know and I'll leave. I do not want to be a problem to anyone, nor do I want to stay where I am not wanted, as some seem to indicate.

ironcross32 wrote:

In the topic about FS and their EULA

Please, just drop it. I have. Or is that being bossy?

ironcross32 wrote:

I pay my bills on time every month and have a handle on my financial situation

I resent your insinuation that I don't pay my bills or that I don't have my finances well in hand. As a matter of fact, my income is several times more than what I need to live on such that more than half of it goes into one form of savings or another. And all my bills are set to be automatically paid, I never have to worry about whether there's enough money to pay my expenses. And to be honest, I don't think anyone here cares about our personal finances, so I will say no more about it.

ironcross32 wrote:

Now let's jump over to the 4chan topic.

Like the other thread, this thread was closed by way of being deleted. I suggest that you drop it,I have, and I have sent The Terminator and apology via private message. My intent was to provide my thoughts on his idea as he requested. It was not my intent to offend or tell anyone what I thought they should or shouldn't do. or am I being bossy here too?

2015-07-10 08:55:00

The appology is not necessary,   neither is it necessary for Gene, Ironcross or anyone else to think about leaving, just to bare the above points in mind and make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again, that is all.
Whatever else,  this forum is supposed to be here for fun, because games are fun, and people come here to talk and find out about games and have! fun, not to attack the views of anyone. Disagreements should be a good thing, after all a productive and stimulating arguement is not the same thing as a violent, emotional one, nor does it need to be.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-07-10 09:57:41

I've always enjoyed a good argument, and by argument I mean debate. My favorite parts of Language Arts class have been the times where we'd be given a point to discuss. It was quite fun. However the arguments I've seen here have been jabs at people for having opposite opinions. It is not fun, I hate to admit it but some of them make me laugh at the sheer childish implications. Dark, the rules above, I haven't finished reading it but I got the gist, are what I've been trying to get through but my vocabularly has insufficient complexity.

Heroes need foes to test them. Not all teachers can afford to be kind, and some lessons must be harsh.

2015-07-10 13:35:59

@geneWarner When I was saying about how I paid my bills on time, that wasn't a jab at you, it was just meant to show that I am mostly a mature adult, that's the thing you gotta learn is to tell the difference when people are taking jabs at you. If I worded that badly I apologize. OK, then can we just put an end to it, I don't want there to be any anomocity.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2015-07-10 13:52:55

Done.

2015-08-03 15:47:34

Hi.
I realise I'm not a mod, but since dark decided to leave the moderation hat for a more appropriate topic I would like to add one thing which I have observed many, many times. Its also a lot of different people doing it, so if you happen to be someone who does this then don't feel bad, many others do it as well, but I think it's worth pointing out nonetheless.
It concerns saying a topic should be closed. This in itself isn't a bad thing, but a lot of people first say a topic should be closed and then continue their post with other things, which others are then going to reply to. Sometimes it happens the other way around too, that first there is a long post and then at the end the person says the topic should probably be closed. I understand many people probably don't intentionally want to have the last word, but by both posting contributions to the discussion and simultaneously recommending a topic should be closed you are making it look like it. Plus, if you really think something should be closed you should probably just say it and leave it at that to avoid people replying to the rest of your post again. If you feel you do have something to say to which other people might reply then it's probably not a good idea to recommend the closing of the topic anyway. You could of course still report or send a PM to someone who can close the topic, in fact that's probably better because I imagine if there really is a need to close a topic, it'll be done anyway. And if no moderator happens to be reading a discussion at the time, then they probably also won't read your recommendation to close it.
Hope this made some form of sense.

2015-08-03 16:56:03

Good point arjan, certainly I can see that someone saying "well I think so and so and the topic should be closed" would get annoying, although  I can think of instances when people have also said "this discussion is out of hand because William isn't listening to Mary's point and then Mary just started screaming at Jo who should really have listend to William and this hole thing is a mess and should be closed" ie, a person analyzes the situation and then recommends closure.

Pming the mods when a person thinks a topic should be closed is likely a good suggestion, though bare in mind that going along with the hole freedom of speech angle, I personally consider topic closure as sort of a neuclear option and last resort, sinse I'd prefer people get a chance to resolve their arguement rather than go away and simmer with bad feelings that will inevitably resurface elsewhere.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-03 18:41:51 (edited by daigonite 2015-08-03 18:42:33)

If only Tumblr read these rules... ahahaha

Honestly the arguments I see here are pretty tame in comparison to other places. At least you guys don't delete posts for simply not agreeing with the status quo of a forum, I had to deal with that garbage a lot on some other forums. People really need to stop taking debate so personally; we all have different opinions that are built on different experiences. As long as you aren't telling someone to hurt themselves or something really awful I think everyone at least has the right to express their opinion.

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2015-08-03 19:14:56

This isn't exactly easy to put into words, but...

More often than not, when I see a message where the author says a topic or thread should be closed. The author just wants his words to be the last words in the topic or thread

Kind of like having the final word.

Damn, not perfectr, but it'll have to do, I did say that what I'm thinking isn't easy to put into words.

One last try...

When someone says that a particular topic or thread should be closed, What they are really saying is that their opinion is the only one that matters, so it should be the last thing in the thread or topic.

2015-08-03 20:20:53

@Daigonite, yep, I've seen those sorts of tendencies, as if "the general concensus" has some sort of moral authority, it's quite worrying, one reason why I try to keep moderations to toxic and harmful situations only, and would actually rather not to have to do them at all.
I will say however some arguements here have got pretty extreme, sinse once the flame wagon starts arollin' everyone seems to want to ride, which is why I posted these to begin with.

@Gene, Arjan noted the same thing and it is an annoying tendency, however it strikes me a good way to stop this is simply being clear on the fact that topics will only be closed if there is no way to resolve the situation peacefully, and not just because someone says "the topic should be closed"

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-04 07:08:06

Hi Dark,

I also think it's the way that things are worded sometimes and sometimes when we say a view, it can be taken as offensive. For example, when I meant tender hearted women, what I was really trying to say was generally, and I wasn't trying to make a certain distinction. After all, even though men generally have more upper strength than women, there are those women that can sendd a man flying with their tail between their legs. Just as a man is generally stronger than a woman, he may be below the average standard for the physical strength of a male. It is true that one man could be equally as tender as one woman. Indeed I once saw a woman that wasn't particularly very nice. The way she said excuse me, it was downnright rood. I don't want to get into a debate about women because honestly, that discussion has died down. I kept silent and for a deliberate reason. Stuff like that can spark tention. I guess I should have proofread a bit more carefully.
Best regards,
Thunderfist.

2015-08-04 10:43:22

One thing that we all need to remember, and I'm pointing at myself too because I know I'm guilty of this, is that with this text only medium, a lot is lost because there's no way to transmit body language, or in our case, tone of voice. So something that's meant as a joke can easily look like a personal attack. That's where emoticons can help, but they are often forgotten and they don't always work as intended.

Its the primary reason why I'm not into texting. The only time I send a text is when I need to send a short message that needs no reply. Something like, "I'm on the plane, see you in a few hours."

2015-08-04 12:21:48 (edited by daigonite 2015-08-04 12:23:10)

Honestly in real life I think all of us are challenged here in communication. Body language is pretty hard for people who can't see it, and I don't understand it because I'm mildly autistic. Of course this crap has to be like 80% of communication...

Instead of emotes when talking to blind people I describe my actions to make the issue more appropriate. So like, in thunderfist's example, I'd say that I like tender hearted women, then say *wink* or something. Helps me, helps you.

I actually prefer written media since I have trouble with coming up with the right words many times when I'm not right on subject and I've noticed a lot of people take advantage of that. You can't rudely cut people off on a forum which is very nice.

Also there's nothing wrong with liking tender hearted women as long as you don't assume they all are. Lol I'm like the opposite so you might be in for an unpleasant surprise there.

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2015-08-04 17:58:09

Look, I came here for an argument!
"Everything dark said in the first post of this thread is invalid because dark is a mod, and mods are all evil, selfish immature people."
You attack Dark' and his argument, dealing 12 damage! smile

I'm probably gonna get banned for this, but...

2015-08-04 18:03:10

Hey, at least he's not Pokecommunity's mods.

*shudders*

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2015-08-05 05:36:28

A dagger of previous moderation experiences flys at you seemingly out of nowhere.
Nocturnus suddenly stabs you in the back.  That really did hurt!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2015-08-05 06:50:34

Dark appears out of a swirling vortex of terrible evilness and starts to stroke his long pointy beerd:
Silence fools!
"I am the moderator! and you will! obey! me! You will! Obey me! I am your lord and moderator ---- and does anyone hear drumbs? Oh never mind I'll just have my spheroid minians ban one tenth of the forum's population instead!

Hmmmm, sorry,  whovian Master moment.

I agree Daigonite that text needs to be specific, which is one reason I tend to always write as I speak, although I've never been a fan of emoticons myself accept for the big_smile grin, and usually I try and make it clear when I'm joking anyway (as per the above).

The od thing about body language and communication is that personally i find the main communication problem is distant. if I can actually get someone into conversation on a one to one level and can hear what they're saying I can let my emotional sense take over, it's just starting the dam conversation when I can't make bloody eye contact that is the problem.
Of course I don't know if everyone gets emotional sense, and like everything else it's necessary to work at and pay attention to. I don't exactly know what it is, I've had suggestions from aura to theramones, it's just the ability to know what a person is feeling when in close physical proximity. The fact that it is utterly impossible outside a person's physical presence is again why I always tend to be as specific as I can on the forum, also why I don't tend to commit too much emotionally to people I have only met online, and tend to think of "online friends" in a very different category to offline ones.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-08-06 12:13:05

While I said body language, which is mostly visual. I believe the whole spectrum of body language is more than just visual cues.

I've heard some people claim they can smell some strong emotions, pheromones  possibly?

I can often tell if someone is nervous because usually they can't sit still and I can often hear those little noises their constant motion makes

At our last family Christmas party, I'd swear I could tell from the sound of his voice that one of my brothers was leaning back, reclining in his chair instead of sitting up, or leaning forward.

All of those cues that we aren't aware of but use all the time during conversations, are missing when using the Internet.

2015-08-06 14:29:40

You can certainly tell a lot from hearing movements etc, though the emotional sense I speak of is not exactly that, sinse I can't usually point to a cause, though it's certainly true none of this exists on the net.
The main problem communication wise I find funnily enough isn't specifically telling what people are feeling, but actually initiating conversation in the first place especially in crowded environments because of bloody eye contact! So many instant judgements are made about you if you can't do eye contact it's unbelievable and there is a ridiculous amount of culture riding on it, indeed the entire club culture and socialization in environments where the ambient noise level makes conversation impossible is based on eye contact, not to mention the hole business of getting served in a bar or a shop or restaurant, initiating conversations with strangers etc. There are so many psychological experiments where people find those who don't make eyecontact instantly untrustworthy or the like, it's basically an instant social judgement against you which people make even before you have spoken to them, not even based on disability, just based on something you can't do, indeed it's interesting when I compared experiences to a friend of mine who is in a wheel chair and the sort of attitudes and instant acceptance she got were %100 different from my usual status as something to be ignored and avoided.

Sometimes I think blind people should ware hats saying "I can't make eye contact but I'm still a human being don't ignore me" accept that that would inevitably have the opposite affect from what is desired, so yes, I hate eye contact, or at least I hate the fact that so many judgements are instantly made against you because you can't do it, indeed it's sort of amusing that most people when questions would say "yes, it's good to treat disabled people properly" and then will still ignore you because of lack of sodding eye contact.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)