2015-06-24 09:38:39

Hi.

wow. If it has dropped to $120 then that isn't that much for a screen reader that you have to pay for. But for me I'll always use NVDA in my day to day life. I mean if I have to use jaws of course I'll use it, but if I can get away with using NVDA I will do.

I'm gone for real :)

2015-06-24 10:09:32

Hi brad, Somebody told me called Brient here that it has dropped to 120 dollars, and that is the home edition. The premium edition costs a lot, but I don't honestly know what is the difference between home edition and premium edition. The jaws home edition offers everything you need in your daily basis, apart from remote control I think.

2015-06-24 11:16:05

Nocturnus;
All too often, I've found that if you ask which is best, or something similar, on an internet forum, it eventually degenerates into a flame war. <sigh>

I like to look at what each product has to offer, rather than what I think is wrong with it. If I find a product has features or behaviors that I don't like, rather than rant and rave about it, I just choose something else and move on.

At the time I bought JAWS for personal use, I didn't know about NVDA, all I knew about was Windows Narator, and JAWS, . Narator was just a reader, it didn't provide any more functionality than simply reading what was on the screen, other than what comes with Windows, no additional navigation keyboard shortcuts are provided. So I bought JAWS and have been reasonably satisfied. Now if I had known about NVDA, I might have decided to try it in the hopes of saving the $900 JAWS costs, and maybe I'd be a happy NVDA user right now. But it didn't happen that way, and I'm not losing any sleep over spending the money for JAWS instead of finding and using the free NVDA. Nor am I losing sleep because somebody else didn't choose JAWS. To each his own. And I'm definitely not going to bash NVDA just because I use and like JAWS.

I am actually going to look at NVDA before I need to renew my software maintenance agreement for another two years. I have no idea whether I'll continue to use JAWS or switch to NVDA. I'm not doing this because I don't like JAWS or one or more of its features, I'm doing it because if NVDA can fill my needs, it will cost me less than JAWS does. But if NVDA lacks features JAWS has that I value, it won't be worth whatever I'd save by switching. So I won't.

@afrim;
Are you referring to the software maintenance agreements? When I bought it, JAWS was $900 and the two year software maintenance agreement was $150.

2015-06-24 12:00:54

They told me that the jaws home edition costs 120 dollars, or they might have been wrong, and the upgrade costs 120.

I will have to look at it again.

2015-06-24 12:23:02

@GeneWarner
My intent was to provide a modern day comparison of the two from my perspective.  I have used both side by side on various machines starting with JAWS version 3.7 on a windows 98 machine in 2000.  Back then, NVDA was not an alternative.  I first heard about NVDA in 2008 and was rather skeptical.  I didn't like the way it processed various strings of text or system messages, could not get used to its versions of cursors and the like.  In 2010, I ran out of options and could not obtain a copy of JAWS that worked with my operating system; 32bit and 64 bit systems were becoming a matter of great importance and some stores sold the 64 bit machines quite heavily.  I had no choice but to switch to NVDA permanently because I didn't have the money to shell out for a 64bit version of JAWS, or any version of JAS really.
I have, however, kept up with the releases up until now and, to some extent, used them wherever possible to assist other people who decide to use it.  INdeed, I have a fully functioning and fully licensed coppy of JAWS 16 on this PC.  I once was impressed; I am no longer and I do believe I outlined why.  It is a shame you see such matters as flaming, since that was far from what I wanted to do.  I believe in choice and have always told people to use whatever works best.  Some of us like Chinese food while others enjoy Mexican.  In the end it only matters that they both accomplish what they're intended to do.  I cannot, however, pretend that the price of JAWS is fair, nor that it is truly warranted, when a free alternative exists that does as much as, and in some cases, more than JAWS.  Is it a good screen reader?  Yes.  Is it feature ritch?  I do believe I stated above that it is rather versatile and complys with many different needs.  That is, however, as far as we can realistically go.  I have seen the seasons change, the time turn, and JAWS is no longer what it once was.  It no longer innovates, no longer truthfully provides incentive for many unless they are old time habitual users or have not had any previous knowledge about other alternatives.  How I mis the days when I could go and listen to the FS podcasts regarding JAWS and be thrilled that something new and fresh and uplifting and useful had been added.  Since JAWS 11, however, progress has, in my opinion, haulted and been geared more toward the business branches than the every day consumer, to the point where they have actually started bundling software along with it to try and get you to purchase it, such as their daisy reader.
So what is the best screen reader?  It does not exist.  If you want to look at it from a feature list perspective, JAWS takes the cake.  If you want something snappy and much more reliable, NVDA is for you.  Windoweyes is somewhere in the middle between the two grounds if neither of the other two suit you, and some people, such as myself, use all three whenever necessary to tackle different tasks.  It's personal; it's preferential.  it comes down to what you're doing and why and how much you want to gain in one area and lose in another, like choosing the lesser of two evils in a political race.  Some people don't vote at all.  I know blind people who won't get a PC or experience the internet or technology of any kind because they're afraid of it owing to old habits.  Give them a phone however and they'll gladly take it.  I'm not against JAWS, not against anyone's right to use it, but I do believe that being informed on a matter is of the greatest importance.  Knowledge is a powerful thing to have.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2015-06-24 15:50:23

@afrim;
Unless Freedom Scientific drastically reduced their prices, which I can't see happening, I believe that is the price of a single version upgrade. That's why I get the maintenance agreement, it's costs about what a single upgrade costs, but you get two upgrades with it, so you end up getting your upgrades to new versions for about half their regular price.

@Nocturnus;
You're right, flame is not the right word, biased is. You say you are trying to tell people about JAWS and NVDA so they can make an informed decision, but if people listened to you, nobody would buy JAWS and everybody would be using NVDA, because all you do is focus on what you consider to be the bad points about JAWS and on what you consider to be the good points of NVDA. JAWS can't be that bad that there's nothing good to say about it, and NVDA can't be that good that it doesn't have any problems or issues. If you really want to inform people, give them both sides of the story in an unbiased manner, and let them make their own decision.

2015-06-24 15:55:35

To clarify,
The 120 dollars for a Jaws home licence, is "official," and is the "upgrade" price.

Now, if anyone here is registered for the 75th NFB convention, members who attend it can get a upgrade to Jaws 16 for "75" dollars.
Doesn't matter what Jaws version you have, even if it is one from the HJ days.
Same with Magyc 13 for 50 dollars.

So, with Windows 10 and narrator having scripting in win 10, and possibly Braille support, how many folks will take that offer?

Modern screen readers in the windows world, it'll for sure get interesting really.

2015-06-24 18:06:37

I don't think that "Narrator" can "replace" Jaws in "windows 10"

Probably windows 11 or 12, or whatever they decide to call the next "generation" of windows will "do" it. smile

2015-06-24 18:28:35

The only possible way Narator could ever replace JAWS or NVDA is if Microsoft added a bunch of additional hot keys to make navigating around Windows a lot easier than it is with an off the shelf Windows.

2015-06-24 19:00:26

Keep in mind, the following site applies to windows 8/8.1:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/wind … =windows-8

You are able to add your own keyboard shortcus by the way, just in case no one is talking about that, which folks aren't for some reason.

2015-06-24 19:25:57

A quick update folks:

For more info bout the Freedom Scientific NFB 75th aniversary offer for the convention week, please see:
http://www.blindbargains.com/bargains.php?m=13026

2015-06-24 20:25:08

Hi.
I am going to say what i've said before on many other topics:
I don't think i'll ever switch to nvda, because I have been a lifetime jaws user ever since 5.0, and it is more than adiquate to fit my needs. There are a few reasons why I don't like nvda:
First of all, whenever a windows program stops responding, nvda completely crashes, to the point where I sometimes have to restart my whole system or just turn jaws on to end said program.
Secondly, I don't really like how it behaves on the internet. I find it extremely hard to read some things, and I don't like the fact that it doesn't have a rapping to top or bottom feature like jaws does. Also, I think the fact that you have to download addons for nvda to unlock new features to be stupid and time consuming. Yes, I understand copyright issues, but still. Why download addons when I can get what I need and more in jaws? Is 150 or 160 mb really that big compared to these days? Not in my mind.

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2015-06-24 20:25:58

Yes, you have the option to customise the keyboard shortcuts, but that is a bit boring. Why should I press ctrl+shift+e or +f (don't remember it) to read a line or a paragraph. Why don't they make it easier for all. Only genius people in the world can manage to memorise all those shortcuts.

2015-06-24 20:38:42

It all varies how ya use your pc. I'm using a Chromebook after all over here...

So, who knows really...

2015-06-24 21:21:59

Well, if you start everything from scratch, you become used to it. It is the same as me when I started to use android and my friends who had iPhones told me that I wouldn't succeed.

2015-06-25 00:15:55

I'm only saying 1 thing. Jaws sucks, for many reasons! First, all freadom sciantific is really doing is trying to make money. People, do you really expect us all to pay 1000 dollars to you bleeps for a piece of absolute crap? Their are so many features that NVDA has that jaws doesn't have, and it costs 1000 bucks? I can't count all the features that NVDA has that jaws doesn't have. Did you know that freadom sciantific thinks that everything on the computer can be done with the key board? There is no, and I mean no, mouse support in, hmm should I call it jaws even more crappy? It's originally jaws profesional, but it seems to be the same. On the xp computer I had, jaws almost broke it, and NVDA ran fine, even with lots of other programs open, and it was xp! If a person is a big gamer, don't! by! jaws! There are no audio games in the world that can be played with jaws. Even if the Bokurano Daibouken games screen reader menu says jaws, I think that's just Nyanchan being nice to freedom sciantific. It only works with NVDA, and oh yah! Jaws has no way to read Japanese! So forget gaming using jaws! I use NVDA, and noone else in the world should be using jaws! The only thing I have ever had to put NVDA in sleep mode for is writing an e-mail in microsoft outlook, and that's only if I tab back to the subject and the message. Also, I can now count the number of people at Perkins that use jaws. 1: my computer teacher, Kate Crohan. Also, she's the only computer teacher who uses jaws. All the other computer teachers either can see, or they use NVDA. 2: the attendant console at the reception desk in the lobby. All the students, and most of the blind staff use NVDA. Also, even the cottages are thinking of switching to NVDA on there computers! Ok, I can't think of anything else to write about NVDA. Wouldn't it be really funny if freedom sciantific got all there money stolen and went to jail for making such a piece of crap?

Barren Byron used Nature Overdrive!

2015-06-25 01:35:37

@boy;

If JAWS was as bad as you claim, it wouldn't have lasted the 20 years it's been around.

You had problems with JAWS? I wonder why. Especially since I know quite a few people  that use and have no problems with JAWS, and we do play games! Imagine that!

I would be willing to bet that if you did a feature by feature comparison between JAWS and NVDA you'd find that there are as many features in JAWS that are not in NVDA as there are features in NVDA that are not in JAWS. To believe anything else is being foolish.

So you like NVDA better than JAWS, that's great, for you. That's no reason to be so hostile. If you can't state your opinions without resorting to being so hostile, maybe you should just keep your attempt to start a flames war to yourself.

This is supposed to be a discussion among adults, not an immature argument among children.

2015-06-25 06:50:46

Hello.
I do not want to start a flame war either, however here is my take on both of them. (warning, this might be considered bias by some).
Firstly, I won't deny that a couple years ago, i considered JAWS the best screen reader ever. Now I could compare JAWS to the following analogy:
Imagine a man severely disabled, and he has to have many braces, incerts, and other contraptions to keep him functioning like a person who doesn't have a disability. These things support him well, but it is very fragile. If one of those contraptions falls off, he can only function a little, and if he does function he will complain frequently about the incert that is missing. How I link JAWS to this analogy is that it has 14 drivers that it initializes every time it runs, that are not often used by a user(at least in my experience). If one of those drivers is somehow deleted, boom! JAWS complains in a way when started, "Error. unable to load the so and so driver." It might function without that driver, but sometimes it won't, and I think that is one of the major weaknesses that stands out in JAWS. One strength I see with it is its almost flawless ability to read help balloons and tool tips, and you know what's going on. I personally use NVDA as a primary screen reader, and JAWS as a secondary. I have a list of what freedom scientific could do, to win my support back to JAWS. Here it is.
1. Remove the "restart your computer" as a mandatory requirement for the completion of the JFW installation. Why do we need to do it? We're not making any Windows changes, except putting another program on the computer. Do you see every windows program installer say "you must restart your computer to finish installation?" No, When I last checked, not every program does this. What makes programs like JAWS and Window Eyes so special?
2. Remove the virtual ribbon from all microsoft products. The normal ribbon, if you try it is much more accessible to navigate than the virtual ribbon, and it gives information that the virtual ribbon excludes. Sighted users see that, so why shouldn't all blind users see it also?
3. Make a shortcut that you can press easily to put JAWS to sleep.
4. Remove SMA's. If you pay 895 to 1095 dollars to by the product, I think FS would still be able to survive if users didn't pay an extra 120, 160, or 200 dollars, and users could simply upgrade for free for life.
5. The same thing that I stated in thing 1 applies to the 40 minute demo too. Users could simply restart the application.
6. Mouse tracking and graphics card usability. People often say that JAWS is a blind person's eyes on the computer. Well, in a way it is, until a sighted person looks at it. They would go, "what the heck is happening! I can't see it." because JAWS is hogging up the graphics card and saying, "go away sighted people! You know nothing about helping a blind person! I'm number 1 on the job, so back off." I think things might go better with computer performance and graphics, if JAWS was to leave the graphics card alone. I know us blind users don't use it, but when a sighted person is trying to help us with something we can't do, It's something to care about.
7. Add an option to adjust the synthesizer's properties with just one keystroke, and not having to go into a separate dialog box just to do a simple task like that.
8. Add an option in which JAWS could say a number that is larger than 4 digits, and without commas as a whole number, not like 1 0 2 2 2 and it would say it like 10222.
9. Support UEB(unified English Braille) and don't limit your language support to 13. Extend farther! You say you're a world-wide leading screen reader? Prove it by reaching out to more countries, as far as language availability, and braille support.
10. Make programming in JAWS accessibility easier for users.
That's all I have for now. As I said at the beginning of this post, I am not trying to start a flame war. I use NVDA, and I love it. For those that use JAWS, think about what would happen if Freedom Scientific did all those things I put. For those, like me, who use NVDA, would you go back to JAWS if these things happened? Why or why not? Thanks for reading this extremely long post.

2015-06-25 07:51:49

@superb;

Not all programs install drivers, those that do need to restart your system to start the drivers that were installed. Most drivers have to be started by the system, not a user, during system start up. Thus a restart is needed.

There is a setting that tells JAWS whether to use virtual ribbons or not, if it's turned on and you don't like it, turn it off.

Initially a shortcut key to put JAWS to sleep sounded like a nice idea, but it would be of little value, because once JAWS is asleep, how do you wake it? Simpler to just unload it, then reload it later. Or you can use the configuration manager to tell JAWS to go to sleep when the Windows of programs you specify are active, then let JAWS put itself to sleep and wake up as appropriate with no hot keys needed.

If JAWS was Freedom Scientific's only product, I'd say your idea of free upgrades for life would drive them out of business. However, since they sell a large line of products, I agree that dropping the software maintenance agreement probably wouldn't hurt them very much.

Simply restarting the trial to get another 40 minutes without the anoyance of having to restart first would remove a huge incentive to buy it. Do you or your company sell a product? How about letting everyone use it for free? How long would you have a job or your company stay in business?

I suspect you have a configuration problem with your computer. I have JAWS and all I do when a sighted person needs to help me with my computer is turn off JAWS' voice. I do not have to unload it or put it to sleep and there are no problems with the screen or the mouse.

I've been using JAWS for 18 months now, and I find that it is very rare that I need to adjust the synthesizer. I'd much rather have hot keys used for things I'll use frequently than for things I might need a few times a year.

How JAWS reads a number is configurable . if a number has fewer digits than the setting, it will be read as a number, one hundred twenty three, but if it has as many or more digits than the setting, it is read as digits, one two three. The default setting is five digits.

Does NVDA support UEB? Is it available in more languages than JAWS?

I don't have any problems programming JAWS, it just takes a willingness to learn. When I bought JAWS, I made it a goal to become JAWS certified. It took a while and was hard work because there was so much to learn, but in my day-to-day work doing software development, I have often been thankful I took the time to do it.

I agree with some of the features you wanted.
* A sleep hot key would be handy atr times, but of limited use because if JAWS really goes to sleep, it can't watch for the hot key to wake up.

2015-06-25 09:08:29

@Boy
It seems that you are standing up for NVDA in a very fanatic way.

Jaws has a lot of features that are not found in NVDA and it certainly doesn't destroy your computer. I've been using jaws for 6 years now and never occurred that Jaws destroyed, or risked my system.
The one that would go to jail would be the owner of NVDA. You would ask, why?
Well, the reason is simple. Can you tell me please how many features of jaws have been copyed by NVDA so far? Remember, the insert key is copyed. Internet navigation system (headings, links, lists, check boxes) are completely copyed by NVDA.
Many people would claim that
this is not supposed to be  true, or at least people do not like to be so, but take a look at both screen readers and see how similar NVDA is to jaws.

Jaws provides a touch cursor mode which covers mouse's job in some ways. At least it's better than not having it.

I'm sorry if you think that I'm intending to start any flame war, or cause trouble, or whatever bad thing you think I want to do, but the way you defend NVDA sounds really ridiculous.

2015-06-25 09:30:16

Hi.

i'm an NVDA user and would not go back to jaws. But saying that I would if I had to. But here are the reasons I will stick to NVDA for as long as I have computers:
1. it's fast. Yes it crashes sometimes but so do other programs. But it lodes in a snap.
2. It's small. i don't know the size of the installer but it does not make you install things you do not need where as jaws and other screen readers, window eyes for example does.
3. It costs nothing.

Do i hate jaws? Honestly no. Do I think it costs to much? Yes.

I had problems in the past with jaws and intersept drivers.

As for who's coppying who, every one coppies from everyone else, so i'm not going to say one screen reader coppies from another.

Is NVDA better than JAWS? It's faster yes. Has more languages, but no, I don't think it is better. I prefer to use it but that's my choice.

I'm gone for real :)

2015-06-25 12:51:25

@GeneWarner
I'm sorry. I didn't know about those system settings. Please forgive my ignorance. To answer your question, NVDA supports 43 different languages--30 more than JAWS' default synthesizer. Also, NVDA does indeed support UEB as well as 20 to 30 other braille tables for other languages.

2015-06-25 21:54:48

@boy
Why do we need mouse support? I never, and I mean never, use the mouse to do anything. I always use the keyboard for my everyday tasks.

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2015-06-25 22:12:05

@bryant;

Good point!

@boy;

Be honest, how often do you need to use NVDA's simulated mouste? When was the last time you needed because no keyboard equivalent was available?

And, finally, JAWS does have a simulated mouse with all the keyboard shortcuts needed for left-click, right-click, and for moving the mouse around the screen.

Perhaps you are referring to an older version of JAWS? Maybe you should look at the current version before you say any more. Otherwise, I hope you like the taste of shoe leather...

2015-06-25 23:20:05

GeneWarner, Actually there are some apps which require mouse to stick with them, and jaws has a touch cursor mode which is very nice. It might not be useful in daily basis, but for windows 8.1 and up it will be for sure.