2015-04-12 13:52:03

Right, let's do this!

I've been working on and off a sequel for Entombed for a little while, and I'm fairly certain about some aspects of the new game that I thought I'd share and get feedback on.

First, I love Entombed. I was a much less experienced programmer when I wrote it, and as a result (I'm sure the players are aware) it has some annoying bugs that I couldn't ever really get rid of entirely. For the sequel, tentatively titled "The Skeleton Tower", I'm going to try and avoid some of the unnecessary complexity of the original. Hopefully keep it cleaner and less bug prone.

Entombed 2 is going to be designed from the ground up to be moddable by the community. I think this will give a lot of longevity. You should be able to add your own monsters and items, and possibly even skills, spells, and player characters.

I will definitely make a Windows version, but I'm also hoping to have a Mac version too. It's possible, though a lot more work, to also have Android and iPhone versions. That all depends on if there are enough people wanting it ported to those systems.

Entombed 2 is going to use SAPI. It's just too difficult for me to add other screen readers .DLLs and keep the code portable.

You'll be able to change many aspects of Entombed 2 using the built-in scripting engine, Lua. I looked into a lot of scripting engines and Lua was the only one I could reliably get to work on PC, Mac, Android, and IOS. I might still hit snags with the mobile platforms in the future, so they're a big if at the moment.

Entombed 1 used a local database based on SQL. This was a major, major headache. Many times the game wouldn't run because the user didn't have the exact right SQL version and it was just a mess. I'm absolutely not doing that again.

Entombed 2 will use text files for game data. You will be able to open any file and change whatever you like. You think kobolds are too easy? Give them another 100 health if you want. You should also be able to add new enemies in this fashion too.

I'm not sure about the possibility of allowing users to add new sounds yet, but I think it's important to extend Entombed 2, so I'll give it a good crack and see if I can get that working. Entombed 2 will have a library of built-in sounds, but I think being able to extend that would be important for creative players. Plus, if someone comes up with some great new content, everyone benefits.

So this is it in a nutshell:

New Entombed game is tentatively called Entombed: The Skeleton Tower.
Designed to be highly moddable.
Entombed 2 gameplay will be based on Entombed.
Development is in early stages.
No release date.

2015-04-12 14:13:17

Will there still be a story mode? If so then all monsters should be hardcoded for that mode. Sounds maybe not though, that'd be cool if you could mod those at least in story mode.  I do like the idea of game modding but I'm not sure what you could do with it. Unless you undertook the arduous task of custom creating a dungeon of your own, which I know some people here would probably do.
It's good to see that your experience is allowing you to program less buggy stuff. That was one of the big reasons I didn't recommend people buy Entombed. Hard to say, but true.
What about gameplay mechanics? There were some big balance issues in etnombed 1 and I'm interested on how you plan to fix those up.

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2015-04-12 15:12:57

I'm so, soooo glad that someone is keeping the modding community in mind! Most mainstream games out there are designed to be quite moddable indeed, so it's been quite disappointing to me that a lot of developers nowadays make their games in a very closed fashion. Perhaps they're afraid of people stealing their sounds, which I suppose is a valid concerned, but I nevertheless felt that being able to add or change the sfx with ones of my own choosing made the game far more personal to me. Looking forward to any further updates to this.

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2015-04-12 15:30:07

keyIsFull wrote:

Will there still be a story mode? If so then all monsters should be hardcoded for that mode.

Yes, there will be a main story mode. Whether the player can modify the story or just extend it is something I have to experiment with.

Most mainstream games out there are designed to be quite moddable indeed, so it's been quite disappointing to me that a lot of developers nowadays make their games in a very closed fashion.

I think it's more difficult to open a game up. Mainstream games like Skyrim have literally thousands of mods. You can always find fresh things to do and see. I hope to extend the life of the game with mods.

Of course, modding the game is completely optional.

2015-04-12 15:46:26

Actually, most mainstream games are not designed to be moddable... console versions aren't at all, and pc versions are usually hacked which is where the mods begin... I don't know about skyrim, but for most games developers don't exactly endorse mods. However, I'm looking forward to seeing this... I'm not a fan of the idea of not using other screen readers, since I've seen plenty of games that have at least support for one and are perfectly portable, but not being a programmer, who am I to say? lol I also agree that if there is a main story, monsters and their abilities should be hardcoded. If you want the flexibility of difficulty to be there, difficulty levels should be an option. Just my opinions though.

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2015-04-12 15:56:16

assault_freak wrote:

Actually, most mainstream games are not designed to be moddable

Console games are not, however, PC games absolutely are. Steam has Steam Workshop for this very purpose. Most PC games are released on Steam and the ones that enable modding with Steam Workshop are generally more successful than those that don't. I don't believe there are any drawbacks allowing a community to change your game. Valve has said that a community of players altering and adding content to your game will dramatically extend it in ways you couldn't possibly do on your own. I agree with that.

2015-04-12 16:06:33

I agree that there should be some limits. E.G. one thought I had would be to let the player mod the game all he likes, then when he wants to play, he generates a dungeon based on the mods then in effect. In this way, he can't cheat by doing the game modding equivalent of:

Oh wow this dragon is way too hard to kill I'll just go in and fix that right now "dragon.health=1" okay now I'll just have my weakest character hit it with his weakest weapon and...Okay that's done we're all still here let's move on.

2015-04-12 16:11:03

@dingo, yeah, that is true. Modding is certainly not a bad thing, I just think there should be limits is all. I didn't know about steam workshop... that's actually kind of cool, though I don't think big name companies like Capcom, Activision and the like encourage modding, even though it may happen. too much modding can break a game, especially anything that's multiplayer. I agree to an extent with what Valve says, I just think that there should be allowances only to a certain point, as Jaybird said as well. smile

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2015-04-12 16:21:24

Hi Dingo, are you Jason Allan himself? I am just wondering, nothing more intended.

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2015-04-12 18:15:03

This thread makes it clear how absolutely clueless I am about the potential with gaming.  *smile* Even so, I am really looking forward to this new game, whenever it is released.

2015-04-12 18:37:28

I can't wait! I know the Lua programming language, so me modding Entombed II is going to be a blast! Keep up the work, Jason!

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2015-04-12 19:20:37

so he's Jason allan himself? Wow. Well keep up the good work.

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2015-04-12 20:03:43

I would really look forward to a new entombed game.  I really liked the original game, but it did get a little borning, even with all the split paths.  I would have liked to add my own monsters, and or skills to the game, so this sounds like a great idea.

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2015-04-12 20:25:40

Hi Dingo.
Great I'm very excited! I love entombed even if I don't particularly love it's gameplay. I think you should have a main story that you write yourself than have players write there own missions and monsters and things like that. Also I know you mentioned supporting sapi on windows but could you please also support nvda at least? I don't have jaws and I can't stand sapi so if it's not too much trouble could you add nvda support. I remember playing entombed when it first came out and I had to play it with microsoft sam it was awful sam could barely pronounce some of the content in the game and microsoft anna wasn't any better.
Also if you need help I can do monster sounds, charactcr voices, and things like that. I'll anmit one of my favorite things about entombed is it's music, character, and monster sounds.
And yes I'm definitley interested in iOs and android versions of entombed 2. I have an aiPod touch and a android tablet so if you need testers for those versions I would be happy to help.
Keep up the good work and thanks for keeping us updated!

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2015-04-12 20:56:26 (edited by crashmaster 2015-04-12 21:01:51)

Wow  dingo.
Firstly I brought your game a little ago, I even then donated the required cash to get the cheats so I had everything.
I like the idea of modding the game, especially if you could create custom mods and stories.
I could see a lot of stuff making it in, realitysoftware deathmatch 1 for example is just a side scroler something similar obviously not the same, I would like sertain mods for sertain things to.
A simple modding of files text etc and sounds and music to actually scripting the game itself would really rock.
One thing I'd really like to change is the exploring part of the game its one of the reasons I actually havn't played this game in a while.
You spend half your time exploring the level something I don't care for.
I'd also like to be able to find more to join your party or in fact have a party at the start be able to influence them and actions have more than the battles etc have some sort of dialog extra elements more cut seens.
I'd sertainly be reader for a pre order or buy in beta to full release program.
Having played entombed 1 I am really ready for this.
I am so happy you are continuing it, the last we heard of you was with entombed 1.05 test and that was all everyone has heard from you.
The lists are quiet in fact it was so quiet there were people wandering if they could have pirated copies on account of your death.
I was really wandering myself you did continue to exist because I  brought your game but I was starting to wander.
Its good to see you back in action and ready to kick some major ass once again.
To many times have I seen developers drop off the map to many times have I seen projects fail.
3 monkies failed and much to my surprise I received my cash this weekend.
I wasn't expecting it so was happy but sad because this confirmed it was totally dead.
Its good to see your creative ass back in business man.
You must appear here more often.
I await this new game don't be to long.
as an addition to this post realitysoftware uses tolk which is a library that should handle everything from jaws to nvda.
it also handles sapi teamtalk also uses this library and its good.
Realitysoftware uses this library for all its games and we have had no issues with it.

2015-04-13 00:00:20

Hi Dingo.

Amazing news. On the screen reader output level, i personally don't see an issue with sapi. People's usual problem with sapi is is not having a decent voice and falling back on windows defaults, however if you invest in a reasonable quality sapi voice it's not a problem, and now there are some comparatively cheap alternatives kicking around.

As regards modding, I love the idea of adding extra items, monsters, spells, story sequences etc to the game. Also, though you mention sound effect porting could be difficult I'd suggest this very much should be sometthing to consider. Remember, audio game ambience often comes from sounds and if the sounds are not alterable a player is forced to be in one location, sinse even if I could create items like bushes and tress, monsters like wolves and wood woses, if the ambience was still that same dungeon theme it wouldn't be a very convincing forest. Adding background ambience changes lets people create different environments, and that combined with the ability to create different story sequences could lead to some awsome creations. Indeed one aspect I would like to see looked at in Entombed Ii is some more interacttion between the player and environment, traps to disarm, perhaps veins of gold orgems to dig (angband had those), secret doors and maybe treasure chests, heck perhaps even foo. Including that sort of thing would also increase the modding possibilities as well.

As regards mods for cheats, one suggestion might be to create two versions of the game, a standard version with compressed or encripted data files that people couldn't just easily open and read, and a modable version with all the text files quite free to alter, however with in game story text replaced with example place holders. So to use Jaybird's example, in the main game you are given a quest to destroy the dragon and retrieve a magic sword from it's hoard, when killing it in the main game you get the message "with great difficulty you roll over the dragon's enormous scaly carcass exposing a pile of gold, gems and other stolen booty. You see a silver sword covered with moon stones gleaming in the pile, this must be what the wizard wanted"

While in the modable version you get "Example, kill dragon and retrieve the quest item silver sword"

Thus making the mod files not to be spoilers for people who haven't already finished the game.

There is probably more I could add in matter of suggestions, but I'll leave it for now, good luck with the development. I'll also add that the entombed list is still active and this is definitely news that the people still on there might appreciate hearing too.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-04-13 00:35:49

Wow! Really looking forward to Entombed Ii! I'm sooo glad that Driftwood isn't going the way of Bavisoft and Bsc games.

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2015-04-13 01:26:00

crashmaster wrote:

One thing I'd really like to change is the exploring part of the game its one of the reasons I actually havn't played this game in a while.
You spend half your time exploring the level something I don't care for.

That's something I've thought a lot about. This is a problem with general roguelike games too. Exploring the level is often tedious. One of my favorite roguelike games, Dungeon Crawl, actually has a button you can press to have your character auto-explore the dungeon. I'm considering something like that. Or some game design idea that removes the tedium from walking around empty halls trying to find your way out.

As for modding spoiling the game, that's true. One thing that's hard for developers to do, is just let players have fun however they want. So, if it's fun for you to make the game easier (or harder) then who am I to argue with that? You have the choice whether you want to play the game unmodded or change it. The benefit comes from players not just making the game super easy, but from extending it and changing it in new ways. So you win the game unmodded, then install someone's mod and you have a whole new game to play.

Another benefit to having the data available for everyone, is anyone can translate the game to their native language. I had a lot of requests for that for Entombed, but the text was scattered everywhere. Some in executable, some in the database, for example. I tried to export the text, but it only slowed the game down.

Cheers!
Jason

2015-04-13 02:16:53

One of my favorite game so far, though I'm quite disappointed on how limited my character could do in Entombed 1. Dungeon making and Entombed 2 is my dream, to be honest. One thing is I don't know how to code at all, but well, who cares anyway. Though I don't know how to use complex code, or even some basic thingy, why not instead give someone's mod a try. keep up a good work man!

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2015-04-13 02:49:52

This is good news. Despite its flaws and bugs i loved Entombed. I do hope more skills will actuall be useful in the sequel. I never understood the logic behind the Thief having the ability to pick locks but not to find hidden things, especially since you essentially couldn't use one without the other.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2015-04-13 04:32:38

O hell yes! Entombed 2? Awesome, I love Entombed, and while, yes, it does have bugs and gameplay issues, it's still amazing.


I'd begun to fear that Entombed would never be updated, that dungen creator was still just sitting there unfinished, and from what I saw in the bazarre, people were starting to lose interest.


An update that possibly allows for more races and jobs, more spells for mage and techniques for fighters, boosts some of the races and jobs to be more useful and others to be lowered in power to balance them out, fixes some bugs such as quests not always showing up in the tavern even if they should, unidentified items not always being detected by shopkeepers, that random thing where you can't pick up anything that drops on the floor and every time you grab one of the auto dropped items like potions, arrows, or scrolls, it just multiplies by 2 every time and stays there on the ground for you to pick up again, weapons that are cursed with zombie rot, parallise, etc not actually applying that damage, and the lack of support for NVDA all being worked on would be amazing.


If you want anyone for beta testing, just ask, and I wish you good luck.  Can't wait to see what you come up with! smile

2015-04-13 08:30:25

One reason Entombed had less than interesting exploring is that there wasn't a lot to do in the environment. In Angband, (the only roguelike I've been able to play due to some very good large graphic tyles and supernova reading the screen), there are lots of things to find in the environment, items lying around, chests that might be traps, mushrooms you can risk eating, vanes of gold and gems to mine etc. That made the exploring much more interesting, and that is something I'd love to see in entombed, sinse while the combat was amazing, there is definitely more to do in a dungeon.

Also, I'd love to see the ability to add flavour text  descriptions to both the environment and the enemies you fight, after all how many people in entombed asked what a narl or a dungeon creep was? again, that is something that would make exploring far more fun.

I'm not against auto exploring, but I would worry if the game basically devolved into a set of fights one after another.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2015-04-13 08:39:23

Hi Dingo!
is this similar to grave of redemption by KeyIsFull?

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2015-04-13 08:49:14

I've been thinking about this concept of the dungeon generation today and there are a few possibilities. As for more descriptions and things, that's a good idea. I actually seeded the original Entombed with minerals in the walls, but never got around to making them destructible. What I want to avoid is walking around lost or searching for something (like an exit) and not being able to find it.

The concept I've come up with is a circular outer hallway. Moving directly right or left will eventually lead you right to the exit. You'll never be lost. However, some exits may be guarded, so moving right there unprepared may prematurely kill you. Along the route to the exit are optional side halls that can contain traps, treasure, and encounters. These are randomized like Entombed to keep them fresh and interesting.

So you don't need an auto-explore function and exploring shouldn't be tedious.

2015-04-13 12:50:09

That sounds awsome, calculated risk is always  a great game mechanic, and having to actually move would be more interesting than just waiting through a sequence of fights, plus by putting a lot of the fights, treasures and discoverables in hallways off the main path you could more easily add descriptions for those rooms and hallways, and of course that is a style of pathway that could be used in several different environments, eg, a forest track with side turnings (remember in mirkwood from the hobbit how the dwarves were told never to leave the path?), roads through deserts or mountains, even a city with a main street leading to the character's destination and various  alleys and streets leading off it.

The only issue with  that style of  design is the problem of resting, sinse in Entombed as it stands you could rest  after every fight and so there was no  greater risk attending exploring the hole floor, you just wander, fight rest,  wander, fight rest etc.  Thus, if resting works the same way in Entombed ii, then players could explore every single turning without worrying sinse they could rest after each.

I would suggest myself either A, having resting tied to a resource such as meals that the player has to find, thus you could rest, but it'd take up one meal, and if you had no meals left you couldn't rest. or B, having resting tied to specific places along the path, or in the side turnings though how you handle those with  random generation I'm not sure, plus there would always be the possibility of trooping up to the next unexplored turning, having your fight, then trooping back to the last resting point before going back again which could be  produce a lot of walking back and forth. .

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)