2007-09-09 04:39:27

Well, after toying with the original Prince of Persia for a while (yes Dark, I finally managed to download that total pack), I can definitely see where it might be relatively simple to convert to an audio only, or at least audio enhanced, version. Especially after having been repeatedly scured on the blade of a sword, fallen off ledges and impaled on spikes. And let's not forget the few times I was sliced in half by those cutters when I skipped to level three. I think that with some small audible cues to warn us of approaching hazzards of that nature, POP could probably be made nicely playable. It's a pity we couldn't convince someone with the ource code to add in a few of those features.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-09-09 18:54:59

Hmm... I wonder. Can one actually play the original POP, at all? If so, I would like to try it, though I would need assistance.

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-09-21 16:59:14

This topic seems to have gone dead. lol. I just remembered. Another game for people to try, any of the smackdown games, or the fight night games. Wrestling and boxing... both of these are very good. I love them. Fun to just pound away at someone or throw somebody into the ropes of the ring.

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-09-21 19:21:31

I've come across some of the smack down games, in fact I was always amused by their precurser, the old wrestlemania games, which featured a joystick waggling contest to see who broke a hold and threw who! this was fun, though did tend to result in the breakage of amigar joysticks.

While an audio beat em up would be fun, I'd prefer something with at least a vague form of complexity, not just button bashing and instant sound reactions as in savage Gambit.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-09-27 04:22:13

Yeah... I would like to see something of that sort. Though, what I feel we've missed out on is the stealth area... which would be so good in an audio game. Like, a beat em up, for example. There would be some parts where you fought wave after wave, but some parts in which you had to quietly subdue a guard without them noticing. I am talking about Jet Lee, rise to honor for the ps2. There are shooting and brawling segments, but there are also areas in which you must navigate through a certain area and quietly subdue a guard without being noticed. If the guard spots you, you need to start that level again. Can keep you on the edge of your seat for a long time...

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-09-28 00:34:53

Don't even get me started on Savage Gambit. I understand what Alan Maynard was trying to do but it just didn't sit right with me. I mean, how many people could actually keep all those keystrokes straight? I beat the Savage Gambit only to find, once I booted up Redemption a few minutes later, that I couldn't remember which key combo did what. Now I wouldn't say no to something more along the lines of the Punchout games. Those at least you could remember fairly easily.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-09-29 00:10:34

Have to agree, Brian. I see the point, but it's a whacked out control scheme.

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-09-29 03:51:28

To be honest, i found Savage gambit fairly easy, sinse it was basically just a glorified form of boppit, with a few more combinations to learn. the game wasn't exactly hard once I'd worked out the details. Imho this is a trap a couple of audio games have fallen into, ---- such as Super football. Audio games need a litle more freedom than this.

I've never played any of the punch out games Brian, but they sound fun, and one chap on the retroremakes forum i had a chat to, once thought they'd be fairly easy to do in audio.

the jet lee thing sounds great assault freak, but more along the lines of a 3D action game with some interesting game play elements than a beat em up. One series I've watched my brother play in this genre are the Tenchu stealth assassin games, which would be great as a shades style 3D audio game with stealth elements, ---- Eg, a way of knowing which way a guard is facing (perhaps by listening to his footsteps), so that you can creep up behind him and do a silent ninja kill!

For audio beat em up, i was considdering more along the lines of streetfighter or Mk.

sinse in beat em ups your always automatically facing your opponent, things would be relatively easy I think sinse sterrio positioning and volume could be used to show the position and relative distance betwene you and your opponent. the only issue I can think of, is an audio indicater for the ranges and hights of the various moves, ---- Eg having ryu say Hadaoken doesn't tell you he's launching a fireball at you .

Of course, a learn game sounds menue could be used, but imho having to memorize the sound effect and attack pattern for all the special moves in the game could get irritating (and also beg the question of why your creating an audio game in the first place).

then again though, if some unique range indication system were used, ----- Eg, a high pitched whoosh sound for moves that hit in the air, going to a very low pitched whoosh sound for ducking attacks, things might be workable.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-09-29 10:29:59

Now that I think of it I could actually see the same problem cropping up in an audio metroid game. Trying to learn and memorize all the attack patterns of the different monsters based on their sounds. The question I have is how to make an audio Prince of Persia game, while having a warning when you get close to traps and yet not making them too easy to avoid. Perhaps you could have a soft click when you step on the tiles that trigger the traps, then have them activate when yo take aonther step past the tile or something like that. Of course in the case of the cutters, you'd have them activate immediatelyand just time your run past them the same way you do for the lasers in Super Liam. That could actually be quite challenging, especially for the faster ones. The sword fights might be a bit tricky but I suppose they could still be done.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-09-29 17:03:16

Guys,

I hesitate to enter this discussion, because I'm new to the group and our games are more oriented to what the media call Casual Gamers, rather than the more hard-core gamers found here.

But many of our games do work with JAWS (and possibly the latest version of HAL) and  also self-voice.

Who in the blind gaming community might want accessible mystery games that are like Clue?
Or story games that are like, oh say the story Treasure Island, but as a game?
Or word puzzle games?

Again, I suspect our stuff isn't specifically what you're looking for, but you might know who would like them.

John Bannick
7-128 Software
www.7128.com

2007-09-29 18:37:07

There are already some games along those lines. Descent into Madness comes to mind and so does World of Darkness. Not to say that there aren't gamers who enjoy that sort of thing, but you'll find that a lot of people are hankering for something that'll actually keep them coming back for more. Although I do have to admit that Treasure Island is an idea that appeals to me as a game since that's been a favorite story of mine for a lot of years.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-09-29 20:01:28

Dark,

Beat em ups aren't specifically one on one. I've played a lot of beat em ups, namely Urban Reign, the Bouncer, Dynasty warriors, even, which is admittedly more of a hack and slash. Point being, even if we were able to make an audio game, there wouldn't be any point for adding the special range indicators you speak of. We can already duck attacks and avoid them in MK and SF, so the amount of sound residing in those games would be fine.

As for Prince of Persia, I have to agree again, Brian. The click would not only be a warning, but also work into the ambiance. That would work pretty well. As for sword fights, we could have the grisley gulch system, consisting them shouting phrases or orders to their companions, from different directions, but in realtime still with the free relm of movement. That way, the sword fights would be the originals with an added layer of sound to them. Or, of course, you could ignore these and do what a blind mainstream gamer does, just swing and chop. heh.

As for Rise to Honor... true, it's more of an action game than a beat em up, but I think we could use just that for an audio game. A game that incorporates all three. Fighting, shooting and stealth / subdue sinarios.

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-09-30 02:30:10 (edited by dark empathy 2007-09-30 02:34:57)

True Assault freak, by beat em up I'm usually meaning the old school deffinition, ie, one on one fighting. it is true there are some wonderful 2D, ----- and I suspect, very good 3d beat em ups as well. I agree though that a game with diversity would work very well.

for original 2D prince, I actually thik the traps would be incredibly easy. the Gillotenes as Brian said, could be timing exercises, just as they are in the sited game. Ditto with the falling waits and rising and falling flames on later levels, ----- though of course your also having to time a jump with the flames, sinse they're coming out of gaps in the floor.

the vast majority of traps in oringal Pop though, were either falling tiles which you could walk on, or jump up and have one hit you in the head, or spikes that activated as you got close, and would kill you if you were running, but not if you were stepping slowly. the spikes as Bryan mentioned would be easy in audio. As for the falling tiles, once you jump, simply have a tile vibrating sound at whatever distance the tile is away from you (and in Pop, distance if very! precise).

the fights in Pop are also very easy, as they work on a basic parry and attack model. All you need to do is listen for the enemy's attack and then parry and attack yourself, very easy in audio I think.

To be fully accessible assault freak, i'd rather have ranges in beat em up, ---- even in beat em ups wih comparatively few moves like fireballs, indicated. In soul calibur 2 for example,without checking a faq, how would you know that Killik has a longer weapon than Tallim, and that for tallim to win, she has to get in close. Also, in something like the old streetfighter 2, there wer every different properties of moves depending upon where you hit your enemy, ----- for instance if you jumped too close to them with a heavy kick, they could retalliate with a throw (the computer always used to do this to me). This is why i think basic range indicaters on a one on one beat em up would be a good idea, ---- I don't mean something intrusive like bleeping, simply a set of punch and kick sounds that was recognizable.

Well John, I won't deny that there is already a certain amount of interactive fiction games, ----- a couple of specialist accessible ones as Bryan mentioned, and a laaaaaaarge variety of text adventure games (quite playable with a screen reader, or even without in the case of Zcode format games these days), already available, and mostly for free, see http://www.whitestick.co.uk/text.html for details.

there are two main advantages of the 7-128 games that occur to me however. firstly, they work on a very easy interface. The majority of old style I.f. works on a typing in commands interface, ---- Eg, get brass lantern, talk to dwarf etc. this can be rather cumbersome, especially when you arrive at guess the verb puzles.

there are comparatively few games with a relatively easy interface. A few online gamebook style adventures, ---- sometimes in the Fighting fantasy tradition, but not many of those.
but with all of these games, there is no audio, music or sfx, just you reading in a synth voice. Extra atmosphere is always a good thing imho, and thus far, only desent into madness I believe, has included more sounds and recorded speech.

Something like treasure island, with the various audio that could be added for locations and characters (methinks Long John silver would be smart as paint with some good acting). Unfortunately I haven't spent enough time playing with the 7-128 games to say, but it's also possible that the atmosphere and acting would give you a reason to replay the game after you'd finished it.

then, As I said there's no typing of commands, and it's not even necessary to muck about on the internet to play your games. As you said yourself, we here are a relatively hard core gaming bunch, and also, we are generally more computer literate than some other visually impared people. another factor is that the majority of people with visual imparements tend to be eldily, and ----- at least some of them, will not be as happy with using synths or complex interfaces. Steve Crawford of Asabat games provides Cd's of self-voicing accessible games such as Draughts (checkers), Scrabble, connect 4 and backgammon, particularly considdering of people who are less computer orientated. I am not sure where he advertises his games, but perhaps it worth checking with him, sinse your games might appeal to this audience, where some more complex audio games wouldn't. you can find his site at http://www.azabat.co.uk/

I will also admit though, that sinse the format of your interactive fiction games has thus far been mysteries, one concern I have is how much lastability the games involve. I'll be able to tell better though once I've tried the full 7 day demo of the Gamebook. though as somebody who loves exploration of different environments and settings in games, this might be different for me in a game like treasure island.

as for your puzle games, i need to try them again reallyt to form an opinion. I found Kim's game slightly too easy, sinse it only seemed to give me a maximum of 6 objects to remember, even when I got to level 9 and 10, ---- but I don't know if I'd accidently put it into easy mode or something while generally playing around with the gamebook.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-09-30 08:09:51

Hmmm, I forgot about the flames. As for the sword fights Dark, I definitely like your idea better than Assault Freak's. After all, we're talking Prince of Persia rather than Grizzly Gulch. Thus having the guards shout "I'm gonna kill ya!" or something like that would be extremely distracting, not to mention more than a little unnerving. The system you suggested is rather like Prince of Persia 3D, where you listened for the guard to attack before pressing the block button. Now that you mention it it does seem as though creating an audio enhanced Prince of Persia would be fairly easy. I wonder if anyone has the source code? I suppose it's not very likely.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-09-30 17:01:06

Well Bryan, I think if you were creating 2D prince, suddenly going into 3D, ----- or even face forward three way sterrio as in GG (sinse how could the guard get behind you), would be slightly confusing to say the least, and imho unneccessary. One Grizly gulch esque idea I do enjoy though, which also happened in snes Pop was the way that you'd get a different music track start up whenever you began a fight with something, ----- even different tracks for guards, skeletons and bosses. One thing I deffinately miss in Pc prince is all the music from the snes version.

As I said Bryan, I think Pop would be one of the easiest conversions into audio, sinse the movements and distances are very precise and easy to represent, all the action, ---- falling tiles, traps, fights, climbing etc happen on the left or right of your character, ---- or just above his head in the case of falling tiles.

I think the source code to original Op might actually be available, look at the pop total pack. Try on http://www.popuw.com/index1.html where the pack comes from, ----- I'd imagine someone has to have the source code in order to make all those mmods and things.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-10-01 06:15:36

I think that the real problem is two-fold: we're about 20 years behind the sighted because blind folks put up with it, and because we're still using joysticks and keyboards.  When I designed air hockey, for example, it wasn't to make an air hockey game, but to begin work on mouse control.  Well, guess what!  Everybody wanted keyboard control back.  I admit that the mouse is somewhat difficult to use, not to mention that the code needs a lot of refinement, but it's funny how few people actually try the mouse.  Also, there's a game called Audiodyssey tha just came out which uses the wiimote or the keyboard, and for sword fights and shootouts, I think that's the way to go.
What I'd love to see is a clone of GTA.  That game has so many different fascets from fist fights to gun fights to driving and completing missions to flying helicopters and driving anything from boats to bikes to golfcarts to racecars.  (Of course, it's all about the money and who wants to invest in us!)  I'd be happy with a good flight sim, or a good driving game where you can race but you have to drive to different areas and cities to get to the races, like in Need for Speed Underground.
I personally think that Audio Quake is our best hope currently--or at least it will be if Matthew completes the level and map editors, because it can be modified to racing and battling with tanks, capture the flag style games, d&d type fights, and more--although you don't get much exploration on death matches as you do with the episodes.
Technoshock, though it's difficult, I think is a very close runner up, and I think it superior to Shades in quite a number of ways.
As far as strategy, there's an old game for the sighted called Flight commander 2, which looks pretty accessible but nobody can find all four disk files.  I'm still looking for it--obsessively as a matter of fact, because it sounds so promising.
As far as beat-em-ups, I like danger city, not because of the fights so much, (although throwing the opponent is a cool move,) but because of all the bombs you have to jump over.   Audio Mario has potential, but it only plays one sound at a time currently, (and the music doesn't play anymore,) and it's hard to hear when the game starts and what's coming from where.  Directx and stereo positioning will solve that though.
My dilemma is that I get bored with games that lack exploration, but confounded by Technoshock and some of the others because mapping has never been my strong point.
It's funny, but I remember getting to play my first text adventure as a kid.  My big dream was to be able to play by myself, with a synth, and now that I can they seem outrageiously boring, with a few noteable exceptions such as Worlds Apart and, of course, Zorc.

2007-10-02 11:19:12

Ken,

What could be done to make the text based games you liked as a kid more entertaining?

I'm currently developing a text based game series for our company.

John Bannick
7-128 Software

2007-10-02 11:31:23

Dark,

That's some really useful feeback.
It's got me thinking again about replayability.

We added ambient and incidental sounds to the mystery games at the behest of one of my VIBUG colleagues here. She is not shy!

Kim's Game maxes out at 8 objects when the Easy button is not set.
(I just checked the code to be sure.)

I just marked Whitestick and plan to look at the text based games they offer.
I know about Azabat. In fact our Marketing folks are looking at where he advertises in order to get some guidance.  Thanks for the links.

John

2007-10-02 13:35:58

Your welcome for the links John. the whitestick.co.uk sie is a general index site of various accessible stuff, from online text rpg and stratogy games to Vi podcasters' websites. there are a lot of text adventure games online, mostly stuck on the absolutely gigantic interactive fiction archive http://www.ifarchive.org/ Whitestick just provides some helpful indexing, and information about the Win frotz Tts program which can play Zcode format games directly with Sapi.

I agree about the exploration business Ken, but I think if 3D audio games utiliize sound sources as land marks, the way shades and Sarah does, they vastly reduce the mental mapping business. this is my main problem with Treasurehunt. I really have to investigate the hole Audio quake project, ----- sinse it looks interesting.

I'm afraid I don't agree that control is the be all and end all in audio games. the hole wireless control thing is extremely knew, and even among sited gamers there seems to be mixed opinions on the subject. Also, there are stil a great number of games which are played with the keyboard and joypad, even on the wii.

Another considderation is that often in mainstream games the mouse is used not as an aide to control, but simply because certain standard Pc actions are performed with it, ----- for example, the mouse may be used in a stratogy war game to click a number of your units, and drag and drop them onto the place where you want them to perform a certain task. this isn't particularly inervative use of the mouse though, just standard sited Pc interface stuff.

I do agree that for games like your air hocky, the mouse could be an incredibly immersive aide to the gaming experience, but I don't think it's the be all and end all.

One real advantage of the audio games community is that sinse all the devs post on the mailing lists and forums, they are very in touch with everyone here and know what people want. So, the desire for more complex games is now being met by people like che martin with his hole rpg project.

for If games Ken, I also agree worlds apart is absolutely fantastic! one of my personal favourite If games ever. I'm not quite as much a Zork fan, the hole cave crawl genre I find slightly confusing in the mental mapping department. some of my favourite surreal fantasy games similar to worlds appart though, are dreamhold by andrew plotkin, Pytho's mask by Emily short, all of Paul o-brian's games, and Babel.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-10-02 15:21:25

Regarding control, it is not true that most audio games are keyboard and joystick... most are simply keyboard. There are a few which can use joystick, but this has mostly been overlooked.

The use of the mouse in mainstream games is mostly as Dark said in the form of controlling a graphical interface which mimics in some ways how people operate Windows using a mouse. The major other use is in first person games where the mouse is used for rotation and pitch control, and I don't feel in most cases it is really appropriate to us though it can work sometimes. This system is designed for "twitch" gameplay as the mainstream calls it, fast and high accuracy movemehnts which is something I don't feel we should look at. We shouldn't really constrain ourselves by trying to mimic mainstream control systems. I feel trackballs might be a little easier than mice, but still not ideal necessarily.

On the other hand the joystick, and possibly even the graphics tablet, have the advantage that you can instantly tell what position the control is in. Mice and trackballs tend to be very virtual in that you need output from the computer to tell how far in a given direction the mouse is often, but joysticks can be identified with touch that they are in the middle or to the left. I think we need to keep working on new control systems and think outside the box.

I believe the Humanware Meistro/Trekker uses a tactile overlay for the touchscreen, a similar overlay for a graphics tablet for example could be of use in some cases. I'm thinking strategy games here, it could be used for either fine control over which area is being viewed with the keyboard controlling the larger movements or vice versa. You might even be able to set it up to handle both and switch between the two as needed somehow.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2007-10-02 16:30:30

Of course even if we found the original POP source code, we'd still need someone with the know-how and the willingness to make the necessary modifications to make it truly accessible. And, as nostalgic as the original SFX were, I for one would want to update the sounds if possible.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-10-03 01:59:10

Thinking back on the sword fighting idea, I take that back. Bad catch, I've just heard it in Urban Reign a lot and thought it would be good. But I for one would love to see it done. Firstly, can someone tell me if it's actually possible to play POP and how much assistance I would need?

Second, I agree with Ken that a GTA style game would be good. Though, something similar to Counter Strike or even haylo would be very very good. One thing I would love to see in a shooter like Audi Quake right now... turrets, or gatling guns. SOD has turrets, but you can't use them. It would be so good to have them for use in multiplayer... as that's a popular in haylo. And does anyone else agree that a multiplayer GTC would be good too? I definitely think so.

Discord: clemchowder633

2007-10-03 02:29:42

I don't think there would be many people who would deny that multiplayer GTC would be fun smile

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2007-10-03 05:29:55

I certainly don't.

cx2, what is a graphics tablet? from your description, I'm guessing it's some sort of touch sensative device where you draw your finger across a surface to move a mouse (My old laptop had one of those touch sensative mouse pad things which worked this way). If I am right, I deffinately like your idea about a tactile marked version. this way, even the twitch gameplay might be vaguely possible to some extent, depending upon how fast you move your finger across the markings, but I'd imagine a device like that would be uba expensive.

As I've now got the space (and the desktop to plug it in), I'm digging out my old braille display which I got for a birthday present a few years ago. It was impractical to use with a laptop (too big and clunky), but I can think of several things I'd like to try with it now, including roguelike asqi games which are nerely impossible with speech (I'll keep everyone posted on how I get on).

this set me to thinking about a conversation I had with a chap from freedom scientific at site village a few years ago. apparently in developement at the moment is a plastic which can be made to expand and contract when electric currents are passed through it. It's actually being researched for use in car breaking systems, but the chap from Fs, saw it as creating the mext generation of very cheap, non-mechanical braille displays. By extention, it could do wonderful things for a fully tactile display. Not only would this create games for people who are both hearing and vision impared, but also it could have some great applications in audio games. For example, imagine sound rts like a braille chess board, where you could actually scan the board by touch and know where all the units were! fair well to all the mental mapping and restrictions on character view which have thus far been such a problem in audio games.

I know this sounds like science fiction, but the chap I spoke to from Fs said it was being researched at that moment, (and that was a few years ago), and could be expected in the next ten years, ----- probably now in the next five or six.

to get back to reality though, I don't know enough about turrets to say whether they'd be good or not, but multiplayer gun slaying games could always be fun, and the more effective slaying the better.

Assault freak, if you look up snes prince of persia on gamefaqs there is a simply fantastic faq by someone called Kwall, with a very complete and detailed explanation of the game mechanics and aski maps of all the rooms. i suggest you take a look at that (particularly the section on gameplay and mechanics), for more info about Pop, and if you decide to try it, try the Snes version. having whoever is providing you assistance with the game read the mechanics section might also help, so then you can get precise information about the various jumps and hazards you need to overcome.
I'm not sure about modifying original Prince Bryan, especially as far as playing sounds goes, sinse it would depend upon how the various game events are coded. It'd probably be easier to do what Thom ward has done with monti and just build a hole new game which features the same levels and mechanics, but in audio.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-10-03 05:54:15 (edited by cx2 2007-10-03 05:54:40)

That plastic sounds pretty useful I'll agree.

Graphics tablets are similar to those touch pads but larger by far. They're used as their name implies for graphics work, commonly using a pen but with more expensive models supporting mice, and even special attachments to give better control over such tools as airbrushes. You can get them in anything from A6 to A3, from perhaps

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.