2015-02-08 21:34:51

I'm awfully sorry, Windows apologists, but while I'm perfectly happy using software that gives me flexibility, the fact of the matter is that modern-day Windows is utter crap.

So I've put Yosemite on my iMac. Not a hard choice, of course, given who made the hardware, and who designed the software; I do have that choice, even if I don't have all the new shiny-shiny. This despite the fact that, without question, Apple have lost the functional high ground. The fact is, even now, OS X is a more pleasant, enjoyable, and technically superior OS. It's all very well threatening to leave the platform for Windows, but when you come right down to it, the grass always looks greener than it really is where Windows is concerned. More is not always better. I still need Windows, it's true, but the number of things I need it for is so vanishingly small that, at least for now, I can live with it either in a VM or perhaps on my MacBook while I'm not travelling. I still hope, in some half-arsed way, that I will be pleasantly surprised once I've got Windows all set up so that I can escape the clawing grip of Apple's politics and smugness for good, but as long as just looking at the Services list, or Task Scheduler, or the accessibility of Skype and Twitter, or even the mediocre state of developer tools on Windows is enough to make me despondent and frustrated, I don't see it being my primary, full-time desktop OS. Even with the workarounds, and the practised incantations, and the limitations on functionality and apps imposed by Apple's latest buggy release and the way that accessibility is done on the platform, OS X is simply better. I'm sure those on the other side of the fence will disagree; that's fine by me. I get why Apple makes them angry, and respect that, but I don't accept that we should lose the best bits as a consequence. It's especially ironic for me, I think, because when I first came to Mac, I was just looking for a talking Linux box with apps I could use, and Xcode wasn't even nearly accessible so you were forced onto the command line; now, the clang transition renders it useless for many projects I work with, and yet it's essentially completely accessible while Visual Studio is--what?

So there you go; I have an upgrade path beyond Mountain Lion, and it isn't Windows, on my iMac at least.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-02-08 22:17:37

Hi.

I'm sure I've said this before but anyway.

What ever works for you is best for you. If it's Mac with voiceover, which is free, great. If it's windows with NVDA, Narrator or any of the non free screen readers, great. If it's vinux? I think it's called, with orca, great. I've never understood this argument over which OS is better. If it works for you, it works for you.

I'm gone for real :)

2015-02-08 22:24:42 (edited by defender 2015-02-08 22:27:01)

Nah I totally agree with everything you've said, including the fact that OSX is faster in every way, accept for the fact that a fare chunk of the things I do just plain can't be done on OSX, no matter how much I wish they could be, or not reliably at any rate.


Things like almost all audio games, Firefox with all it's amazing add-on's  and navigation that actually  makes sense and isn't slow as all hell, the only audio editor I know how to use well that still has a decent feature set and won't require me to learn an entirely new system over several months to become proficient with it, and that's about all, but that's most of what I do aside from books and music, which I can do on OSX pretty well with tweaking according to my friend, and file sharing which I can do alright though I'm more limited in which services I use, just like everything else on OSX.

2015-02-08 22:33:25

All right, fine, I'll bite.
most machines work fine out of the box, nothing more required.  Windows only gets super complicated if you go into atypical stuff or have some sort of weird problem.  But the real killer is accessibility.
Xcode is accessible.  Xcode is basically unusable.  The interaction model of Voiceover is not robust enough to handle apps of that complexity in a productive manner without writing your own scripting.  Simple procedures require keystroke counts well into the double digits, while spending the whole time dealing with the speech lag--as of yet unfixed.
So you go to the terminal, which is fine.  Until you start running into terminal bugs.  I should be able to mud from my mac with Telnet.  I cannot.  Why? Voiceover apparently doesn't have the concept of queuing messages to be spoken, or something.  You can see similar problems in other places, or could when I left.  This also hits compiler errors pretty hard, or any other program that doesn't throw the text out in one chunk.
But the real killer is web browsing.  I can pretty much guarantee that I can get to and navigate any web site much faster than you can on Windows, by virtue of my screen reader not sucking.  Seriously.  Sub-par support for Aria, sub-par support for web pages with any sort of complicated Javascript update, sub-par for navigating at a higher level.  Most of the people who I know that use Macs use Windows specifically because of this; and, as a programmer, I'm on the internet a *lot*.
Windows dev tools can be done from the command line so long as you aren't trying to do WinRT.  I use Cmake and debugging tools for windows, and am 100% good, up to and including step by line.  In addition, because Windows screen readers offer indentation indication, I'm actually able to program in Python.
Twitter and Skype are fine.  Skype's accessibility is basically 100% as far as I can tell, especially with the latest NVDA.  Twitter's web interface works, and we've got like 3 different clients you can choose from.  Word is faster and easier once you know the keystrokes.  I can't comment on excel at the moment.  You can bring in Cygwin and stick it on your path, giving yourself most Unix utilities.  Arrowing through my source files does not lag before every line.  Modern versions of Windows even have spotlight, for all intents and purposes, and the irony is that it appears that modern Windows PCs will be getting Siri before macs.  There are some very early signs that we might even see an accessible VS soon, but this is only a hypothesis without much evidence at this point.

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2015-02-09 02:34:24 (edited by Sebby 2015-02-09 03:29:02)

@Brad: Indeed. Different strokes, etc. Whatever works for you is right. Be objective.

@camlorn: happily I don't actually write much Python, and Xcode already has auto-tabstops. I don't use Xcode much either, as I said, but when I do need to (because the dev has provided a project) I'm always glad to be able to tweak it all graphically, whereas AFAICT things have got worse with VS, which is really terrible. And even if I did want to get really nice indentation feedback, for some reason, and braille and indent were not enough, well there's always emacsspeak, which does pretty much the best job I've seen at this (though not my preference, by any means). As for usability in Xcode, nah, when you know you're VO, it's really not a problem--even the designer. All you need help with now is icons and probably your initial layout as well. There are various guides out there now for the step-by-step on setting up all the jump targets if you need to use the single-view layout, which I don't.

Responsiveness: update to 10.10.2. This was bad, and fixed.

Terminal: indeed, this would certainly have constituted a showstopper with unacceptable workarounds, if Apple had not--at the last possible moment--fixed it.  I'll be trying dumbfrotz with it soon, just to see; if it works, and I think it will, then that's sorted, as of Yosemite.

As for browsing: meh, second nature now. And as of Yosemite, you get working cursor navigation for copy-paste jobs. Perhaps you should give it another shot, if you find the time. It's funny because I find dynamic content handling better in VoiceOver, at least compared to JAWS; it's always seemed very well integrated, right down to the dialog and menu roles being given their correct behaviours. I can't see anything inadequate about the ARIA support either; NVDA does things very well in Firefox, IIUC, and I didn't notice anything. By contrast, I'm missing pause and resume with the control key, while gaining the slight responsiveness one gets from formant synthesis, and better behaviour when switching tasks (maintains your place). One of these days I'll report those to Apple, but I actually still think the JAWS+IE wins overall anyway; Eloquence is still a bit less laggy, which makes EG the various live chat systems feel very slick.

Skype and Twitter: only the web UI counts IMO; accessible clients are seemingly either not robust or feature-incomplete. Yes, yes, you'll make do without, but that's a good part of the argument; we shouldn't be doing that on platforms where accessibility is actually working. Skype incoming notifications are impossible to reproduce without one of these fixes, AFAICT; they come naturally on OS X, courtesy of Notification Centre.

And all that beside: my issue with OS X is really _NOT_ all that much about accessibility, it is feature completeness. Apple could make all my problems, every single one of them, go away by next Thursday if they got their engineers working on useful software, and not shiny gimmicks. What is more, everybody would benefit. Example: I need Thunderbird not because it's a better email client--it isn't--but because it has the option to show the plain text of an email message.  This is the heart and soul of what I think Windows apologists are all defending; they are basically saying that their platform is better because when you're swimming with the other sharks, you catch more fish. I agree with that completely; harsh but true. But as a consequence you get a platform which is just, I don't know, awful. Mediocre. You get the registry, system services, shared DLLs, UAC, action centre, numerous system notifications which serve only to highlight the essential uselessness of the platform, a horrible app launcher, process spam, ribbons, inflexible UIs that try to mimic OS X, badly, extended permissions that serve no useful purpose, fifty zillion different group policy parameters many of which belong in the UI and the others of which are pointless, stupid search indexing behaviour, driver issues, bundled software, insane networking behaviour, inadequate server software or development tools for languages other than Microsoft's (i.e. every industry standard that matters), the inability to install it yourself (there's another thread about that), in short everything designed to madden the systems admin trying to get stuff done. Maybe you haven't got a problem with that, or perhaps you just don't do all that much digging for whatever reason, I don't know. It pains me to think that I used to put up with this nonsense at all, although I realise much of this is Vista and forward. OS X is Unix, and that's that. Once you know Unix, you get all the power Unix offers--nah, cygwin really is a bit of a toy, albeit a very fun one, just try running nginx on that--and still get to run a state-of-the-art web browser and a text editor with built-in systemwide spell-check and a dictionary.  For me, accessibility is simply not the problem; it's the whole bloody operating system.  That, as a consequence of being the majority platform, accessibility happens to be available for more apps is a definite bonus for Windows, but until the Apple bugfest--and only until then--has it been clearly obvious which platform to go for, because I choose technical robustness over (IMHO mostly self-fulfilling) accessibility claims. And yes I regard virtualisation of Linux as possible solution to some of these problems, though not without the introduction of many others, as you will no doubt have discovered. But now that Apple have stopped caring about software quality, so that mediocrity is no longer an indefensible position and I might as well get the other advantages of being on Windows as primary OS, I find myself trying really hard to like Windows, but as yet have not won the battle over myself.

Perhaps by next Thursday. smile

Edit: I'm going to try Windows 8.1 and Classic Shell as a combination next. I remember having happy thoughts of Windows 8; Start aside, it was much less annoying out of the box. It also seems to have corrected an imperial ton of keyboard navigation issues in Win7, though whether by accident or design I can't really tell.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-02-09 04:40:52

I'd say that I've done rather a lot of digging into Windows, but the things you're listing are usually things I do on my VPS anyway.  I'm not suggesting windows as the platform for servers.  All that admin stuff usually applies to servers.  I don't use windows for servers, so it simply doesn't matter.  I've got a simple single-user setup, and am happy.  Also, a lot of that can be done via the command line or power shell, though you'd have to do some reading to learn how.  The point of Cygwin is to get the few unixy things that I need, nothing more-it's certainly not running software.  If I really, really need Linux, I just open a VM.
As for Python, well, my point is that you can't read it.  Not that you can't write it.  Without indentation indication, you simply can't.  I've gotten to a point where I consider reading indentation to be super important even in other languages, but that's neither here nor there.  I would posit that you would perhaps be willing or even desire to write more Python, should your screen reader actually allow it-this is a trivial feature, and I can't believe that no one has asked for it and provided enough good reasons that they would fail to add it.  Yet...well.
Everyone I know agrees with me on Xcode except you.  It is accessible.  On Windows, however, every IDE already provides keystrokes to get to important location b from anywhere, so I'm not fiddling with jump points or applescript.  This includes even the inaccessible ones.  Eclipse has some issues but is workable, and it lets you get to most important functionality with 2 keystrokes (alt+shift+q, followed by a letter).
NVDA beats everyone for web.  Jaws is probably the somewhat close second, but it's NVDA all the way these days if you actually want standards compliance and Aria and stuff.
Note that NVDA also provides pause.  It's moved to shift.  I don't think any other screen readers on Windows do, but could be wrong.
As for the bugs?  The two people who I know that use Mac full time have told me that no, 10.10.2 did not fix them.  I'm not revisiting until it stops being some sort of "maybe, maybe not, depends on the phase of the moon and your laptop better be facing north."  I have been told that 10.10.2 brings the lag back down to pre-10 levels, not down to Windows levels; imho this is unacceptable.
As for Microsoft and standards, you may want to look again.  The early signs are that this is about to change: modern Windows Store apps are HTML and javascript, there's all sorts of rumors about VS 2015 supporting Clang and possibly iOS development, and they're rewriting their web browser in order to kill Internet Explorer and get the web standards coming up to speed.  The actual tools for the non-Microsoft technologies do also exist, they're just third party.  And I'm not sure that tools matter to us because 90% of them are inaccessible anyway, and we normally end up in a command line.  And I'm actually slightly excited about Windows 10, though it's too early to tel.

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Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2015-02-09 05:13:34 (edited by serrebi 2015-02-09 05:15:12)

I own a 2012 Macbook air with an aftermarket faster OWC drive I purchased a few months ago, and even with that, I still prefer using windows. Now I'm much more of a user than these people in this thread, but let me state some common reasons why for  the most part lol... Latency is so bad on oS10. Adding to this is the busy busy shit caused by the built in software. Now I know this kind of behavior exists on windows but it does not happen nearly as often as it does on OS10. I can live with a few hundred MS as latency I guess, but that along with worse performance? I'll just stick with eloquence/NVDA/Firefox, thank you. It's a sad state of affairs when you prefer using iTunes on windows. Having said this I would use puTTY or cigwin if I desperately needed something from linux or whatever, but I await the day there is a good open source option, even if I have to end up using espeak.

2015-02-09 07:02:06

Interestingly enough, I use a MacBook with Bootcamp so I can use Both Windows and Mac. Recently, however, I started my computer on the Mac side, and I couldn't hear VoiceOver at all, nor could I hear any of the volume controls. My Mac's currently broken, since the screen literally came off its hinges and the ribbon able and other chords from where they previously dangled have snapped.Is a screen needed to use Voice Over? I heard somewhere that it is.
Although that might appear to be off-topic, I find that Apple support is avolable almost anywhere, whereas Microsoft and other non-apple computer service places are less commonplace.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2015-02-09 13:08:24

My web browsing opinion of Mac and Windows is very mixed and comes down to what, exactly, you're browsing. Things that are more textual, like this forum or any news sites, are easier to read on Windows with the document model, but anything that tries to resemble an actual application works much better on the Mac because the screen reader navigation doesn't change depending on if it's an HTML content or not, and tabbing is more often than not very unreliable.
As far as other things go, both Mac and Windows have good things going for them. I'm definitely in the minority when I say that I prefer the Mac for school work and note taking, and there's 3 reasons for this. First, OS X boots up much faster, wakes up faster, it's just way easier to quickly start working. Second, I still haven't found an Ultrabook that's as good as a macbook with which I could easily go to school and not worry about also bringing a charger. Even with my early 13 pro, which doesn't even have the best battery life in the whole lineup, after 7 classes I can come back home and still have around 50% battery left. And that's with Wifi on and occasionally running mail in the background, and a twitter client and connecting to a braille display via bluetooth. Speaking of Braille, what currently makes Windows very inpractical for me is that there is a serious bug with rich text areas and NVDA that if you have a braille display connected and start typing, because of Windows API limitations NVDA has to briefly select the text to obtain formatting information, and if it  does this while you type, the text gets mangled. So it's either typing slowly so it doesn't happen, or working with speech which also sucks because I can't work easily by listening to the teacher and my speech with headphones on. The mac also has a systemwide spell checker which automatically recognizes your language which is just awesome. On Windows, spell checking only works in Word, and to make things worse you need to pay $40 or so for every language pack in addition to your base language of office. There's also a few apps made specificaly for editting markdown that include things like instant HTML preview which comes in very useful.

Other Mac apps that I consider to be killer apps include readkit, Skype because it's so much cleaner on OS X, downcast, and iBooks (Qread just converts the whole book to plain text and you also end up not getting notified about links and headings. And with those limitations I don't think it's worth $30). Core audio is a lot better than the Windows sound system, so apps like soundflower, which is a virtual audio cable equivllent, are a lot less resource intensive and have almost no lag. It also allows for apps like audio hijack, which, again, is cool. Plus the whole unix thing that was discussed here before.

Now, Windows has some good apps as well. Games for a start, audio and non-audio, sound editting, and especially music sequencing is much more accessible (it's only too bad that the Windows audio stack sucks soooooo much compared to core audio), and the one app I miss from OS X the most is probably Total Commander. While Finder is better compared to explorer, it's very basic compared to TC and its power user features. There are also times I miss some NVDA addons from VoiceOver, especially the OCR and instant translate, as well as the beeping progress bars. You don't realise how useful that is until you have to use a screen reader that lacks this feature.
I'll admit I haven't played much with the terminal in 10.2, but with 10.1 I haven't really noticed much of an improvement. Generally, I don't mind having to just read my output manually but having auto-reading would sometimes be quite useful

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-02-09 14:36:16

Hi.
I don't really know what to comment on here in the thred, sinse most of what people are saying, is said without arguing on why it's said so.
Navigating websites using VO Works better for me and many other Mac users than in Windows, simply because of how the rotor Works in Voiceover. Forget all about all those keystrokes for web navigation, but they are still there if you wanna use them. You can costumize the rotor and choose what you need, which makes it much simpler.
the way Safari shows the websites and flash is not being accessible with VO is an other thing. But navigating websites is much better, faster and simpler on a Mac in my oppinion.
Voiceover is still very much behind when it comes to Excel and advanced text editing. This is really a shame, and I hope this will come up to the Windows standards in the future. But I'm not sure, sinse that might require a scripted screenreader like Jaws.
For me, the way the OS Works is much more stable, much cleaner, much faster and more accessible for me. Yes, I'm both using Windows and Mac. Mac for serious stuff like mail, surfing the internet, listening to music, podcasts, watching movies, recordings, sound editing and all kind of stuff. I'm using Windows for games and some advanced text editing and Excel Work, sinse I don't find Apples Numbers or Open office to Work so stable like Excel.
Skype Works great with Voiceover, and it has done so for many years. Safari is sometimes a bitch regarding to websites, but Webkit which always runs the latest Safari engine solves many of those issues.
Well, at the end, I think it all comes to personal choices. We can now choose to use Windows, Linux or mac just like all others. Some like Windows, some like Linux and some like Apples system. I'll say all operating systems have their good and bad Things. If you want the best system, buy a mac and put Windows and Linux on the machine and you'll have the best from all three operating systems. smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2015-02-09 15:22:48

I would say pick the operating system that works for you. For me, it's windows. One thing i have noticed is that for those of you who have access to both mac and windows, it seems like you have to pick and choose what operating system works for various circumstances. This is where i think that accessibility standards could be improved on both platforms. I hope that there will be a day where the idea of accessibility is universal, no matter if your a windows, mac or linux user. I'm running windows 8.1 on my main workstation. I have windows 10 tech preview on a laptop, and arch linux with mate desktop on an old desktop from 2006. So, even though i don't have mac hardware, it would seem that i get most work done, and the most enjoyment from a windows system, although i do love arch linux, because it's so customisable. I think orca and firefox have gotten a lot better, but NVDA is still king. While i don't mind using safari on my iPad with quick nav, i still find it kind of clunky for some reason, i can't quite put my finger on why, but it seems some how less intuitive. I think as long as you maintaine your windows install, it can be rock solid as far as performence is concerned. My advice is don't run windows on cheap hardware. I know this is impractical for many, just try to at least have 4 gigs of ram and an ssd, and i think you would be hard-pressed to say your mac is faster. Of course, your milage may vary.

2015-02-09 16:03:21

First, I just have to say-Espeak isn't that bad.  It's all about training to the Synth.  Everyone is all over Eloquence, but really that's because you've used it for years, not because it's significantly better.  I used to be the same way, for about 3 weeks when I first started using Espeak.  But suddenly, well, going back to Eloquence is about as painful as when I left it.  Also, NVDA people have just released a new experimental voice that replaces the Klatt synthesis with something that is, imho, much better.
As for Macs and web browsing, I'm not going to deny that a Mac is much simpler to learn.  You're right about the web not having all those keystrokes if you don't want them.  But that doesn't matter long-term.  If you want to approach the speed of sighted peers, I really don't see it as possible: their whole model is flawed in the speed department.  I used to think this was just me, but my brother went from zero computer knowledge and doing everything on his iPhone through Mac to me installing Windows for him, and all of his complaints were identical-super easy to learn, but much slower than is reasonable.  Technically, you can script everything.  But NVDA provides an equivalent to the VO interaction model for those times when you really must have it, and the way web works on Windows means that if you take the time to learn all those keystrokes you'll be moving much faster in general.  I think the biggest problem with mac is that sighted users seem to be heavily encouraged to use the mouse, resulting in less keyboard shortcuts being built into the apps themselves.  I'd say that the one right behind it is that Voiceover tries to translate everything into a visual metaphor and doesn't seem to be really context aware--if it were, we could probably cut out a couple layers of interaction in a lot of places at least.
As for Linux, I've not tried it on a laptop.  The one downside there seems to be battery life, or so says the ten or so programmer friends who tried it.
And does anyone have a reference to the NVDA ticket about this needing to select text in rich edit controls for Braille?

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2015-02-09 16:38:29

ticket #4291
The mouse thing is actually quite true, maybe even going as far as replacing mouse with trackpad. My sister, who also uses a mac, has really gotten used to how intuitive the OS X trackpad gestures are. For example, you can just pinch to zoom, drag 2 fingers to scroll, and developers can intercept gestures on views (IE in Djay, if you move the mouse cursor onto the virtual vinal you can scratch the record. I've also noticed that, while Windows is slowly getting some of these gestures, before Windows 8 the implementation wasn't certain because every OEM had to do it themselves, and even now some trackpads work better than others.
This visualisation concept of Voiceover also transitions to Braille, and this is one thing I wish Windows screen readers put more work into. JAWS and Window-Eyes sort of do this but VO handles this best. Basically, instead of just mirroring speech and just showing in braille what is focused, Voiceover shows you the whole line under the cursor. So, in a dialog box that might have yes, no and cancel buttons, you can read the message text, then pan once to see all buttons and you then just hit the cursor router under whatever you want to activate. Weirdly enough, VO on iOS doesn't do this and instead opts for the typical jaws/nvda esc structured aproach

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-02-09 17:57:42

Peter you could probably use  a lenovo X series, or T440 if your okay with 14 inch, they are quite good too on the battery front, but you could also just run XP on a VM or even better, a bootcamp partition, if you wanted, and get a very good battery life, though they might not be as good as the new Macbook Air's that will no doubt come out soon and will probably have Broadwell 5th gen chips with 2 to 3 more hours of battery, and the support for a retna display, as well as some slight performance enhancements, since this is the tick phase and not the tock phase, you'll have to wait till the end of this year or maybe a bit beyond for the tock phase, which will bring Sky Lake.
Then again they may not do that yet, it depends on how fast Intel can get their shit together and get PCE 3.0 into the Broadwells, since for some strange reason they are stuck at PCE 2.0 right now, even though they've made other enhancements to ram and on board GPU, such as the ability to use 1866 MHZ sticks with laptops, and 20 more processing units on the new Iris Intel HD6100 integrated chips, as well as some more power VS performance type enhancements, in part do to the switch from 22NM to 14NM transistor architecture.


As to the headphones well, you already know about DJ style 90 degree swiveling ear cups and IEMs and hybrid IEMs that will stay in 1 ear well while you take the other one out, and I'm sure you have some nice cans for mixing but you may want to invest in some different ones for school, different devices for different situations and all that, I use the Koss Pathfinders for school and the ATH M50X at home my self, both relatively inexpensive for what you get, which is good because I don't have much money right now.

2015-02-09 18:59:48

Windows tablets at least are now there, as too are Windows phones.  Windows 8.1 supports it on desktops if you have a device, I think, though Microsoft seems to be betting more heavily on touchscreens.
Fortunately, we have a legacy on Windows of people wanting their keyboard.  Unfortunately, without that, accessibility is kind of crap.  I have an idea how you could fix this on any OS, but it requires the app to implement more APIs, and is consequently useful for a few cases but otherwise impractical.  On Windows, most apps that have a file list or what have you have keystrokes to quickly move from navigation pane to whatever else, etc.  I never saw this on Mac, especially with the dev tools.  Even VS lets you get to most important things with 2 or at most 3 keystrokes, not that I recommend trying to use it.  The ribbons up this to 4 in some cases, typically apps like word with a billion and one functions, but that's still better than constantly interacting and uninteracting all day long.

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2015-02-10 04:30:19

Wow. OK, my thoughts on the comments so far:

I think a lot of the issues in Apple's hardware/software (but mostly software) are general issues not related to accessibility, which is part of the reason I've been so edgy of late. However, on the positive side, my brother managed to get my first MBP replaced with a completely new, upgraded one as a consequence of having sent it back so many times for faults with its logic board. No DIY replacements required. As of Yosemite, trying to use non-Apple SSDs is risky because TRIM support is no longer available. Generally with the current QA situation, I really don't feel particularly upbeat about OS X as a platform, and there are lots of silly crashing/freezing/stability issues, so if you upgrade to Yosemite and now need to restart your computer every twelve hours, that's just the Yosemite situation. You know what to do: report feedback to Apple, or else file bug reports as you find them. Do your duty, or it won't improve. Right now, that's about all I'm prepared to do because unless I find otherwise, the alternatives are all just worse. Least worse is never a good way to advocate, but that is how I feel about OS X at the moment.

For Windows management: no, workstations are doing all sorts of nonsense they have no business doing on your network, and if you want your machine to go faster, I'd recommend you Google up the lists of services and turn off the most pernicious ones, especially those which delay your boot time by EG performing resolution that you simply don't need. Either that or stick the bloody thing in a VM. OS X is a server; it's also a workstation. A very important trick for somebody who spends his time managing servers. Virtualisation is an option, but it definitely limits your portability, so unless I'm going hardcore installing/testing/coding, it's always preferable to build software locally. By tools, I mean the basics--a web server that supports modules for all the scripting languages, shells and all the basic interpreters, CGI, etc. Getting the Win32 ports of those installed configured is a painful, flaky business, and often (sadly) just plain doesn't work.  No, I will never, ever be interested in learning Python, because I really hate the language.  Development generally: we'll just have to agree to disagree; we now have blind devs on the App Store, and really, give me that over VS mediocrity. You'll let me know when they start caring again? Only I have to manage some VS projects and often the only option I have is to hack the XML. Unacceptable. For the rest of it--I think you've already made up your mind, so I'm not going to dissuade you otherwise, but you'll have to use the platforms to be completely objective. I find NVDA laggy even under Firefox, though less so than JAWS under IE; I don't know what this means, but since I'd prefer to use Chrome anyway, it really doesn't matter. And yes, I too look forward to Windows 10. And thanks for the pause tip.

Navigation philosophy: no, sorry, I simply can't accept that the tab key is a navigation technique. It may work a lot of the time, but it's a fundamentally hacky way to achieve accessibility to programs, and causes lots of information to be lost without even more hacky solutions, namely screen-scraping. With OS X, tab generally only moves you to critical sections of an application, and the rest is shortcuts of which there are many if you choose to learn and use them. Even MS realises that, which is why Narrator basically just clones the Apple strategy. Thank goodness; you actually have a fairly good chance of being given comprehensive accessibility in WinDoze, even if you have to spend a tiny little bit extra of your time to become acquainted with an application. NVDA has object nav, which is good, but it's not the default navigation technique, because the assumption there again is that somehow there will be a shortcut for everything (there isn't) or that the tab key will tell you everything you need to know (it won't).

I now have three screen readers (JAWS, Supernova, Window-Eyes) on my MBP. I don't even think I have much use of NVDA since between them the others will do a better job of giving me the kind of access I need using the screen-scraping approach. This is a great shame, but I think really the problem with trying to rely on NVDA is that it basically puts you back to where OS X was when Apple came out with VoiceOver; namely, accessibility is only as good as the UI allows it to be, which means that it's completely unknown. IMO, on a purely anecdotal basis, NVDA users are getting less access than VoiceOver provides today, so people who are choosing NVDA are doing so for reasons other than comprehensive accessibility (even if it is not the stated reason). The commercial screen readers are of course all equipped with screen-scraping so they can augment the APIs, so they will tend to give you more incidental information. Some of it is actually quite impressive. Supernova, in particular, has a lot of magic sauce that combines lots of information (including MSAA/WUIA) to provide a structured view of the screen, but with the addition of things like shape detection to identify objects. So you can see e.g. bitmaps representing buttons as buttons in TK or QT apps. Sadly it is also seriously behind in usability and everyday access, so I'll have to fall back on the others to get stuff done. Sigh. It would be really nice if you could just take for granted that Windows apps worked without having to consult a checklist, but I don't see it happening because the entire ecosystem (pre-modern, anyroad) just doesn't make guarantees about the level of accessibility you'll get, even in cases where the dev has put in absolutely zero effort to make their apps screen-readable. I really hope this changes, but it seems to me that this will require significant advocacy from MS, just as Apple now provides for its developers. In the meantime, if you want to spend no money on your SR, you'll just have to donate to NVDA and file bugs or feature requests. For me, it looks like (I surprise myself!) Window-Eyes is winning my heart back; just a few issues in some live web apps, and it's pretty much solid for the rest.

I really _do_ prefer Eloquence, (and even DECTalk, or Keynote) actually, though I've heard lots of people praising eSpeak as a given, even wishing for it to come to the Mac, so I'm putting this done to subjective opinion. Different tastes, etc.

Speed: I can't imagine what situations your in that means you can't use two hands instead of one to navigate the web. Either you're in Air Traffic Control, or you simply prefer the material gratification of speed for its own sake. I don't know which it is, or even if it's either, but I choose option two again. Entirely subjective preference, and I just don't see the sense in it. As an aside, your sighted peers already have substantial advantages over you, whichever platform you are on, because they can scan a page and infer the many things only apparent in layout that you can't--not even with "h for heading". For my subjective side of the debate--and I've heard and appreciate the logical complement--it is already cheating a blind users just making them experience the web in a different way, i.e. using virtual document navigation. Although, yes, it'd be a nice feature to have in VoiceOver. smile FWIW, I really enjoy surfing this forum with a Mac and VO; I just can't imagine it being pleasant on a Windows box. And if you ever want to do the same, you'll find a setting for single-key navigation while QuickNav is on. Also, Option+Tab is the way to jump to the next form field, and I can be typing this reply in the box while reading your comments. Pretty neat, eh? OTOH, as Pitermach notes, Windows screen readers handle plain text and simple documents better because you don't need robust cursor manipulation for those, and it just slows you down. VoiceOver is very solid under load, but that's also a big problem when you're trying to analyse long pre segments or just very long lines in paragraphs, so I often copy-paste text into TextEdit when I need to scrutinise it carefully, so arguably a failure condition. There's a longstanding bug whereby line navigation is often not working with the VO cursor also; I'll file that eventually too.

Hardware: yes, for the notebooks, Macs are just wonderful. They aren't wasted, even if you just put Windows on them. Desktops--mmm, now that's much more competitive, if you know where to look.

@Arq: completely agree; accessibility should be a _given_, whichever the platform.

@GGF: I think you had better get that machine checked out. smile

@Wanderer: Orca+Firefox have always been in a very unhappy marriage. I'd suggest you try Chrome+CV, because while it has shortcomings of its own, it is definitely a step up in responsiveness. I also have hopes for Win10--if only MS would listen to people.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-02-10 04:48:05

What's wrong with NVDA? It works just fine as far as I'm concerned. The review cursor is identical to the VOiceOver cursor in Mac OS X.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2015-02-10 05:51:00

QT implements (all be it poorly) some accessibility APIs.  Even mac has this requirement.  You are getting nothing additional on Mac in terms of more accessibility by magically doing something; the difference is that the app pool is smaller and most people use the built-in stuff.
You could probably get GTK via screen scraping, though.  And I think the screen readers that work with QT are the ones that ignore all the extra information it is supposed to expose but then manages to get wrong or not implement.
Also, I'm not saying that tab is a "good" navigation methodology, but Voiceover's is worse.  Flat representations work better in most cases, especially when the app provides keystrokes to get to stuff.  NVDA provides object nav, which is Voiceover for all intents.  Even Jaws provides the functionality, but it's more hidden there.  I think you haven't actually given Windows enough of a chance; you have decided to hate it, and therefore nothing any of us can say will sway you.  I tried OS X for a couple months before forming my final opinions, and if someone actually provided a good reason or a "actually there was a significant change" I'd revisit it.
I am not addicted to speed, if you will.  Nevertheless, if I wish to be competitive, I need to be as fast as someone with a mouse wherever possible.  OS X does not deliver this.  Windows does.  You are losing a great deal of time by deciding that fast is not important; I have seen this mistake a lot.  I will never have the advantage of being able to take in the screen at a glance, but I will have the additional advantage that my Windows screen reader responds instantly in most cases and that Windows philosophy seems to be "a shortcut for everything including important navigation."
I could be on the app store if I wanted.  The methodology is simple.  Use ssh from a Windows VM with Fusion, use xcode-build to build and run the app on the iPhone, and use Xcode for the parts where I have to add new files.  Alternatively, purchase Ruby Motion; this hides Xcode away entirely.  Saying that there are blind people on the app store (which I've never heard of before, do you have a source?) does not guarantee they did their development on a Mac.
As for VS projects: any development I do that requires a VS project doesn't anymore because I transferred to Cmake; if I need a VS project version, I just ask CMake nicely.  Anything cross-platform shouldn't.  The only time you need to hand-manage a VS project is if you need WPF or WinRT.
Python: if you haven't learned a "modern" high level language, you should.  Doesn't need to be Python, but something besides C/C++ (which I believe are your primaries) will open up whole new vistas for writing quick one-off things or smaller programs.  I still think the accessibility point is important, however; properly indenting is important for inter-op with the sighted and also embeds the brace count right into the program source.  Braille is too slow for this: my synth is 800+ words a minute but my braille display has a world record of 165 words a minute as far as I can find.  Nevertheless, I consider not wanting to learn a programming language to be a dangerous attitude as a programmer-learn it and then hate it, fine, but don't not learn it.
As for the server vs home computer point.  Python and the Python web frameworks all run on my box with no extra configuration.  Node.js runs on my box with no extra configuration.  Apache can be set up in an hour or two.  PostgreSQL runs on my box with no extra configuration, just run the installer (there's a small accessibility pain point, use NVDA OCR as I recall).  Everything else can get a VM and WinSCP configured to use my much more productive Windows editor, or I can just WinSCP my VPS.
As for Firefox lag, that's atypical.  Do you have an older box?  A lot of your complaints are things I used to see with my machines from before 2012, but since then I've barely done any configuration after a fresh install of Windows.  Avoiding OEMs may also be helpful in this regard, but nevertheless.  NVDA itself is snappy, though I will admit there is some startup time on Firefox these days.  I'm now wondering if you last tried NVDA with an out of date version-I can't remember the last time it wasn't snappy save on pages that do very nasty things with JS.
And finally, Espeak.  It's not about likes or dislikes.  It's solely about training to it mentally.  When I first switched to NVDA, I didn't want to use the Eloquence add-on for reasons which now seem silly, so I put up with the o god my ears for about a week.  And then i installed it because I realized I was being silly, and Eloquence had gained enough of the properties that I used to attribute to Espeak that I didn't go back.  At this point, I see it pretty heavily: switching synths is a complete mental reset for a half hour or so, though I'd say my ability to understand them in general has increased because I have long-term experience with two.  The only reason I consider Espeak better than Eloquence is because I see Espeak as having a future whereas Eloquence seems to be slowly dying--it'll get some revivals, sure, but no one can easily get their hands on it save the screen readers, and no one can open source it legally.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2015-02-10 08:30:23 (edited by Sebby 2015-02-10 08:48:51)

NVDA is great when you control all the software like in a VM, but it falls over very rapidly when you start using anything that's not native or nearly-native. No, I think the difference between VoiceOver and NVDA is the entire ecosystem; all the developers writing Mac software are cocoa, and the only time it breaks is when it isn't. So I stand by my personal opinion that the Mac not only gets the right philosophy, but also lives by it rather more successfully--increasingly so, as the platform gains recognition. This is not in any way to discourage people from using or donating to NVDA, but the discussion would go a lot quicker if people just said "Oh BTW, I have JAWS installed on this box" because not all of the software I use is made by MS, written in WinForms, or whatever. Things will get better, but right now it looks like I'm going back to Windows purely for functionality.

QT accessibility has always been pretty awful, but I think Apple and Nokia stopped caring at some point, which is why I boot a XP VM to use the odd app (TeamTalk, e.g.). I think it goes deeper than merely what screen readers are doing; the roles are frequently not even correct, so NVDA is correcting them when it happens to be aware. Supernova will, for instance, correct a button to a checkbox just by using its shape. This really isn't important, it's just an example of what is possible if you rinse your hands of a philosophy of doing accessibility correctly, which I think is essential to Windows.

I think object nav and Narrator do as good a job as can be found on Windows, but no, I still don't agree that flat is OK. You may very well hear everything you _need_ to, but you won't (IMO) know everything that you _should_. Philosophy, again. And the same applies to the speed argument; we really have no objective information, it's just your perception. Apple chose, voluntarily, to educate people for what I perceive to be a good reason of the logical layout of UIs, but you clearly see it as just an impairment; I find the loss of methodology to be a great disappointment, and what is more any effort to gain it is seemingly not rewarded, because the screen readers, the APIs, and the people who use them just aren't interested. Yes, there are plenty of shortcuts in OS X, really there are. They may not be in the menus by default, but they are all listed ind assignable, for example you can jump to most controls using a dedicated shortcut (Cmd+f for Find, e.g.). The real reason why you like Windows keyboard accessibility, and it's why I do as well, is that it wasn't an afterthought, and thus the primary way to do things from the keyboard is typically much more intuitive, but honestly, about the only thing I really, really miss is Cmd+R for run. You don't need the VO keys all the time either--go ahead, use the tab key, use cursor navigation, press Control-F2 to reach the menu bar, whatever; it's all good. Why people continue to skimp this is a mystery to me. I suppose that I'll just have to downgrade my expectations of screen review.

Draconis is on the App Store; I'm not sure what process they used, but it absolutely requires Xcode for the final step of signing and submitting, if not for testing on an actual device. You can't do it without Xcode, even if not for the actual coding and build process. I am aware that this is not uncommon, but I also happen to know that blind people are actually using the IDE for their coding as well. There's a list for such people, but I don't have the addy at the mo.

I can read Python; that's good enough for me, at least for now. I write system software so there is very little room in any of the upper-level stuff, though I'll probably have to learn it eventually, for some reason. I've written, and like, Ruby, though, and find that much more enjoyable; Python is just intellectual.

Yes, NVDA 2015.0, of course. I think this copy of Firefox is sluggish anyway, so to be fair it may not actually be NVDA's fault in this case, so I'll need a control test. Yes, 2.6 quad-core I7 with 16GB of RAM. No idea.

No, really, the various WAMP stacks for Windows really are horrible and I just can't go there. Homebrew or a VM will give me a self-contained playground, a choice of _any_ software stack I want, and a much better chance of actually implementing the required setup. OS X simply wins; it's Unix, there's no way around that.  On Windows you really only have the VM option.  Certain software can be run on Windows if there is a port, but even then I would not advise it, because the support is often suboptimal; for example, you will typically not have a mail transfer agent available, so you'll find that your test code needs modification just to work in your testbed to send email. I'd better get my VMWare Workstation license and work on a minimal ssh-able Linux box.

TTS choices are _always_ subjective. You won't believe it's true, until you run into somebody who disagrees with you. But apparently you need a bit more work. smile I'd agree that Eloquence has a limited lifespan, but the whole time I've been using NVDA, it has, in fact, been with eSpeak--same for Window-Eyes, in fact; I'm using it right now. Without question, eSpeak is getting better, but it's no Eloquence or even DECTalk yet.

Are you quite sure you've tried coding in braille? It's just ... I couldn't go back to speech. Being quiet is one thing, but the denseness of code, the number of punctuation marks, means the speed advantage of speech is essentially nullified. Only if you are writing or reading much text does it come in again. For this to work you will need a direct, one-to-one correspondence between characters and cells, and you will also need good controls on your braille display to navigate both by panning and by line. This is one instance where I think virtualisation is _entirely_ justified, just to get BRLTTY; it really is that good.

I've used Windows for many years, full-time prior to moving to Mac in 2009 or so. I still use it as part of my work, of course, and continue evaluating it, as any good tech enthusiast should. And I think you were here when I started talking about moving back full-time. While I appreciate your concern, and I'd agree that we're both determined to ignore the opinions of the other, I do believe I'm actually giving it a go. It may already have been a couple of months; can't remember. Fact is, I miss OS X a lot. Maybe you can't see that, and in which case perhaps it was never the right platform for you, but IMO a lot of Apple hate is just that, hate. If we were reasonable, there'd be no question that people should use whatever suits them best, and for me that's OS X, and for you appears to be Windows. Now that I'm trying to move back to Windows, I'm faced with all the reasons I first had for leaving the bloody thing, and realising that, honestly, a lot of the Windows superiority that is evangelised is mostly just perceived. Whether because of some hatred of Apple, or because Windows users just have an entirely different set of priorities, I have no idea. I was rather hoping that there would be an objective reason to use Windows beyond "I can run more than you, and faster" but sadly there doesn't. So, it looks like that's the one I'm going with once I've figured out how to like Windows, unless of course Apple gets its act together. Or, hey, maybe I'll just keep running them in parallel.

And this brings me back to the point I've been trying to maintain: it's really not all that much about accessibility, it's the whole damned operating system. You could ask any Linux user, if you need confirmation. Mac isn't great because it talks--that's just a side-effect, and one that is always misunderstood, ironically, as somehow being its selling or strongest point. It's great because it isn't bloody Windows.

Just myself, as usual.

2015-02-10 11:14:10

If by flat you are refering to flat review or the JAWS cursor, my thoughts on this are the same as using the document model on the web. It's a good last ditch possibility if you need to scrape the screen for text in, say, steam, but to make sense of anything in an app, no. It may be faster because you don't need to find a list and then enter it to see its items, but at least if you enter that list you can read the full contents. I often find that flat review chops the ends of text off, and when you get into high-DPI displays which are getting more, not less common, good luck clicking anything.
@sebby spotlight is probably your best replacement for the run dialog. In Yosemite, typing in an app name will launch it, typing in an address will open it, you can do unit conversion and math inside it, and if this is still not enough you can install searchlight and expand spotlight with more plugins

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-02-10 12:31:40 (edited by Sebby 2015-02-10 12:40:49)

@pitermach: yeah, Spotlight is seeing more love, but OS X still doesn't have a simple way to run an executable with arguments, AFAICT. That is damn useful when your SR has locked up again ( oh wait, that never happens on OS X, does it? smile ) and you're trying to do a "taskkill /f /t /im:nvda*" to kill it.

How do you do conversions in Spotlight? Will they work with suggestions turned off? If not, bummer--I can't have them enabled.

Thanks; will check out Searchlight, sounds very interesting.

Edit: nope, that seems to be a remote spotlight utility. Do you have a link?

Just myself, as usual.

2015-02-10 15:58:38

What was the ticket thing Peter put up on his message? Also, what is this new voice going to be, and is there a way I could hear it?
Personally I learn what I need to learn. Frugality is more important to in my honest opinion than trying to get the latest and greatest stuff out there.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2015-02-11 00:49:07

Oops. The thing I was refering to is flashlight (view its applevis entry here)

The ticket refers to the  NVDA braille issues I brought up a few posts back.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2015-02-11 01:32:12

For me, it's really hard to say which OS I like better. They are botho really good at different things, IMO. Web browsing, windiws flat review is much easier for me to grasp than the mac, and it's just plain quicker. Games, again, windows wins at that, mainly because there are just more choices available. Most other things however, I prefer doing on the mac. Programming, video conversion, word processing, listening to music or books, skype, all of that I find much easier to do on the mac. I do like having both available though, which is why I have happily installed boot camp, and can switch between the two with little delay.

Prier practice and preparation prevents piss poor performance!

2015-02-11 01:34:56

Well, I do actually care about the visual layout of a UI.  Consequently, Unspoken.  A lot of people like it, though I do need to finish up the Libaudioverse-powered version that I've been running for like 3 months and clean up basically that whole page.  We're also getting an NVDA speech refactor that'll allow me to add the features I can't currently get it to do at some point probably in the next 6 months.  Beware, it's a little bit buggy in a completely predictable manner, and no this is not my fault.
When I first went to OS X, I loved it for basically all the reasons you're mentioning.  Easy to learn, accessible apps, etc.  And for the first week or so that was great.  By a month and a half, I was ready to throw it out the window.  I stuck with it longer thinking that surely it was just me and I'd adjust.  But the truth is, I can only take so much "every label is in the VO equivalent of the tab order."  Tab never really worked for me on OS X-it'd miss important stuff.  And you seem to be missing my point about keyboard navigation: my apps  contain both keystrokes that do things and keystrokes that get me to important locations.  But in OS X, the keyboard focus is a much less important thing, and the equivalents all involve setting your own bookmarks and/or writing applescript.  I could not find Xcode keystrokes for "move to file list in project manager", etc.  Anywhere.  I spent a very long time looking.  maybe I just missed something obvious.
The reason I'd use ruby motion is because it does some sort of magic which removes Xcode from the equation.  You're required to have it, but it apparently just works out everything for you and calls it, somehow.  On account that i found xcode-build, this isn't unreasonable.
One of the reasons my brother left OS X was screen reader freezes and crashes.  I consider his case important because I got him on it around the time I thought it was the best thing ever, and then we basically had no contact.  And yet, as a completely novice computer user with experience only on the iPhone, he's now left for Windows with complaints identical to mine.
As for screen scraping, Well, Microsoft wants this dead.  They almost killed and severely restricted mirror display drivers in Win 8, and I'd highly, highly doubt that Narrator is getting one.  I think that NVDA might be more open to it if it looked like it had a future, but it doesn't.  Also, if they ever had the resources to do that, they'd have the resources to do what all these companies should be doing: doing the work to fix the framework.  I know that someone will now scream about all the apps that are already out there that don't get fixed, but this puts us in a much better place in, say, 5 years when the framework updates start hitting the apps.  And it's what Microsoft is going to require for Narrator, which appears to maybe be becoming important.
I've not specifically tried coding in braille.  I doubt it would do anything for me.  The one place I might is Lisp, but I see no reason toa ctually use Lisp.  I'm one of those people who goes fast with the synth, mostly through practice over a period of a year or so.  With punctuation at most, I'm going very, very fast.  Very.  The only language I've ever had to go to all for is haskell, and that still doesn't knock too much off.
As for synths, I'm saying it's subjective.  But I'm also positing a reason why.  Training to a synth is a subjective-making activity (surely there's a better word but I can't think of it, ah well).  The mistake I see a lot is that people assume that their current synth, usually Eloquence, always sounded so natural.
And to whoever was curious about the new NVDA voice, there's an add-on but I don't have a link to it handy.  It still needs some work, but it's pretty decent.  It got me to switch from my old synth settings, so that should be saying something, at least to those who know me as that crazy Espeak fanatic guy at 1000+ words a minute (That actually dropped, it's now more like 900 and I don't have a measurement, but I digress).

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992