2007-08-24 15:01:27

Dark, I agree with everything you say on railracer. I personally think it's a great work.
Hmmm, yes, subquests and multiple routes would be great. You could beat the game the easy way, and then try different routes and rack up quests completed. Perhaps you could only complete so many quests per game because if you abandon the main plot for too long, you will fail it?
For exploration, I'm thinking like a programming array of 10-by-10. It's basically divided into blocks. A block numbered 0 is like an empty space, so if you step onto it, you will start falling until a block below of the same position is solid. IF there is none, it is a cliff and you will die. If there is solid ground below, you will just drop down; maybe a bit of damage if it's a far drop. There will be other blocks on each side of the ledge telling you that it is a ledge or a full deathdrop. There can also be blocks of lava or whatever to jump over. Enemies will also be possible to implement on this game area. They may be predictible and walk of edges, but maybe they can be programmed to stop. Actually, I'm not sure how making ememies smart would work; I'm not even sure how to make multiple enemies work out in a relatively dificult manner. It'd take a bit of tinkering that I don't really have time for currently.
These blocks can have infinite possibilities, so I'm sure I could implement doors and such.

2007-08-24 15:21:19

Uhm, Aaron? If you'd read the posts after yours ou'd have seen that a few people have given their input. And Dark, as for StarTropics, if you're at all curious about the soundtrack and have the capability of playing .nsf files you can download the complete soundtrack from www.zophar.net. In my opinion it's one of the best soundtracks evern written for the NES. It's under Nintendo NSF archives, which is under Game Music Archives (obviously). As I said it's quite possibly my favorite NES soundtrack, though admittedly certain tunes do get a bit overused.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-24 18:10:19

Hey, where can I get a good nssf/snsf player? And is there a program to convert them into wavs/mp3s?

2007-08-24 22:07:59

thanks for the input. brian, i did not actually notice those posts. sometimes the forum misses them out so thanks for telling me. i'll see what i can do. keep in mind though i've never played metroid.
and now onto the game it'sself. the stats system sounds good, and i like the block system where if it's 0 you fall, 1 could be ground, and then you can do,
block1=sounds\footsteps\mud.wav, or level_step=sounds\step\mud,100 where sounds\step\mud is the folder name and 100 is the number of blocks that support it.
i'd love to play this game. and perhaps i could be a voice actor. the plot sounds interesting and i think the logs of the explorers sound good as well.
how that can work, you pick up a data chip scanner, and around the planet and on monsters are, well, data chips. and you then scan them in and then you hear the log. they get added to a logs list, which you can access at anytime s you can hear the plot again and see where you are up to.
just my thoughts so far.

2007-08-25 01:32:46

I don't know about converting the NSF files to Wav or MP3, unless you used an audio editor like Gold Wave to record them while they were playing. Of course then you'd have to edit out any screen reader speach which can be a pain to do without compromising the rest of the recording. But you can get nsf players at www.zophar.net. In the nsf archive there's a link to nsf players. I recommend Festallon. It's a Winamp plugin that you can just run and install. I recommend it because it uses the standard winamp keys (v to stop, x to play, z and b as rewind and fastforward), so it's fairly accessible with a screen reader. Also, it has the truest NES sound I've heard from such players and it doesn't seem to have problems playing nearly as many nsf files as, say, nosefart. Nosefart's another nsf plugin for Winamp, but while it has excellent sound it has problems playing some nsf files that Festallon seems to handle fairly well. So I'd go for Festallon since it seems to play more reliably. And it's an executable, so you can just run it from its current location and it'll install to the right directory. Then you should just be able to open an nsf from within Winamp. Me, I've got quite a few on my Laptop including the original Metroid.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-25 02:29:56

Yeh, I don't have winamp, so I may have to look into another kind.

2007-08-25 05:44:46

Hmmm, I've been having a few problems with winamp plugins recently. Snesamp, my Tfmxx (amingar format), and the highly experimental Gim format plugin for Mega drive stuff all are fine, however I've had real trouble with the plugins for psf playstation format and Gsf Gameboy advanced format, they crash winamp if you install both of them, and occasionally one or other of them has gone splerky on me.

I'll try the Nes thing out though Brian, sinse from what you say it sounds about as stable and reliable as Snesamp. (I've got a backup of my plugins folder anyway).

To get back to audio metroid, I can certainly see the advantages of the blocs system, sinse it'd let you create whatever kind of maze you wanted. I'd also imagine, that it wouldn't be too hard to have the block's coordinates accessible to the player, either by sapi, by a spoken wav, or even by a pop up message box that Hal or Jaws would read (this method might be a litle more clunky, but I'm guessing would be the easiest to program).

As well as the issues you mentioned with monsters and other objects though sk8, I also wonder if it would be difficult to have different background music and sfx play in different locations, sinse imho the diversity of the worlds in games like metroid was one of the things that made exploration so much fun. You could walk through a door in the firey core of the planet, and find a passage leading you back to the water area.

The data chips idea Aaron is a good one, especially when dealing with a plot where you need to find out about past events (such as the death of the survey team).

I wouldd however like to see at least a litle in character dialogue in the game just to add progression to the plot.

Perhaps though, the data chips system could be a good way of introducing subquests and exploration without having to muck about with loads of deviations from the main story?

for example, you find a data chip that mentions records of an ancient and powerful weapon with a clue to where these records might be. You then need to go to the area and find the data chips of the records, and eventually track down the weapon after hunting lots of monsters for their chips.

It might also be a chance for some rather cunning litle puzles, both in terms of complicated directions and in terms of riddles about which monsters have the answers.

For at least some of the logues, you could also use either text files o sapi to cut down on file size.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-25 17:12:08

I think having different sfx wouldn't be a problem. If we were to put the whole game into an array and I was the programmer, I'd probably kill myself or my code editor or my computer, or something! That'd be so confusing; even a simple ascii mapping of everything for programmer reference could get crazy with a screenreader. I'm testing my method, and it definitely requires pre planning so you don't get lost in your programming. You need to make a map of all the "blocks". You need to make sure to include fall and ledge warnings on each side of the ledge and make sure your fall isn't interupted. I'm fairly sure that the system will work very quickly if preplanned well. I'd almost consider making a level editor first, and using the level editor to make the game.
But about the changing of background, it'd work to a programmers advantage because you could break the world up into different array maps. So if you got to a certain point, you would be silently warped(more of a technical thing) to a different array which would be a different area. Still one world, just divided up.

2007-08-25 19:05:25

Wellthe different areas thing feels true to Metroid. That was part of the fun. The planet had a number of diverse climates, from aquatic areas to jungles to volcanic cavers. You could usually access the other areas via elevators, assuming of course that you had the proper suit upgrade to survive there.
  As for the stats thing, I honestly feel that would ruin the spirit of Metroid. You never had to main your equipment in the Metroid games, and anyway part of the fun was finding and acquiring the different upgrades to your suit. So if you remove that you detract from the game.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-26 01:25:06

the array thing sounds good, I've considdered a nested maps idea for an audio rpg before, perhaps working on a squared system the way Galaxy rangerand X hour do, with portals to the various sub-grids. Assuming you can fix the gravity and ledge warnings in the programming though, it'd probably work for a maze style platformer ala Metroid as well.

for the Stats thing Brian, well Metroid games did actually have stats, but being as they were platform games you generally had to calculate them. Some Metroid Faqs I've seen actually have those calculations, and they make quite interesting reading. Even in Super Metroid, you could turn off and on various aspects of your sute. Usually it'd be better to leave all your upgrades turned on, but you could get some quite interesting effects by turning them off.

I certainly think including anything like gaining experience or leveling would most deffinately go against the Metroid concept too much, but finding and equipping the weapon upgrades is deffinately pure metroid, and having to occasionally alter them around for specific monsters or areas is imho not too far of a stretch.

Metroid Zero mission even had a section where Samus loses her sute and you have to sneak around with only a stun pistol trying to avoid being detected.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-26 04:15:11

Muhahaha, the stealth levels! Those are always great. Relatively little equipment to worry about; just gotta watch yourself and conserve!
Yes, I'm thinking maze platformer here. Each row is stacked on another and you move up and down. Not like galaxy ranger where it's flat and more 3d-ish.
HEre, I'll try to explain flat and the other maze thing:
Imagine you have a grid. If it's laying down infront of you, that's flat, like galaxy ranger. Now stand it up on end, and you have my version.

2007-08-26 14:47:01

Ah yes, that was in the space pirates' mothership and the Chozo Ruins. Then you had to fight that Chozo Guardian thing that looked just like Saus, and when you defeated it you got your suit back. THen it turns out those unknown items you found earlier i the game actually were upgraded beams, armor and things so then you could go after the pirates and not have to worry about getting your arse handed to you right away, unless of course you did something stupid. Then it was just that giant Metal Ridley at the end of the game. The game certainly had a cooler soundtrack than its NES incarnation. Speaking of soundtracks, I wonder if I can find soundtracks to Prime and Prime II? From what little i've heard Prime II has even cooler music than its predecessor.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-26 15:41:20

I'm sure if you want an idea, vgmusic.com has the music. I know it's only midi music, but it could give you an idea at least. I've never been able to find many real game soundtracks.

2007-08-26 18:38:15

Yep Sk8, as I said, I deffinately approve of the grid layout.

Personally the stealth bits really got on my whicck, but then again, I think they were supposed to, and I don't deny that giving the space pirates what for when Samus gets her sute back is good.

As for metroid soundtracks, well unfortunately the site where I got all of mine is no longer up and running. Galbadia hotel has a few though, including original Metroid, Fusion, Zero mission and Metroid Prime 2 Echos (which certainly does have a good soundtrack Brian). just go to http://gh.ffshrine.org/soundtracks.php

In fact, if your looking for modern stuff, Galbadia hotel is often worth a look. I got the entire Sould blade and calibur soundtracks there, as well as a couple of Mk soundtracks. My only problem with Galbadia is that you really have to be patient with the tab key when going through the alphabetical indexes.

for super Metroid (imho one of the best), I'd advice Snesamp and the snes music site: http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/

Hth.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-27 03:07:05

Hey,
I found a snes player on zophar that's really awesome! It has a wave converter too, so that's hugely awesome!
It seems a bit harder to get like n64 soundtracks, which I am really sad about. I'm also sad that I can't get snes and gb soundtracks.

2007-08-27 04:13:18

MMM, why can't you get Snes soundtracks? Zophar has a few, and the Snesamp site I mentioned has even more (they've also got an mp3 converter if you'd like, though personally I'm quite happy playing spc format stuff).

I've tried the N64 plugin for winamp, but that like some of the less well-designed ones, it made things go very splirky indeed, which is annoying!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-27 16:14:57

It's actually kinda funny, but Galbadia Hotel also has the soundtrack to the original Home Alone game for NES. It was funny as heck. Then there was one of my favorite games, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. Somebody ought to consider doing an audio version of Baldur's Gate, though from its now sadly departed web site that's what Castle Quest was seemingly shaping up to be.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-28 04:05:39

Yeh, I'll have to get that snes to mp3 converter off that site. If you're wondering why I want the converter, it's so I can use the sounds in programming.
big_smile
Which, even more off topic than this thread is already getting, I noticed a game called skate or die 2. Stuff to look into...

2007-08-29 07:43:42

Well sk8, unfortunately the snes music sets available are just that, music. then again I believe the snesmusic site has various tools for ripping both the music and sound effects from actual Snes roms, though I'm not sure exactly how that works.

Bsc games lost many points in my estimation by cancelling Cq. Then again che martin has expressed an interest (and only a vague interest), in doing some sort of audio rpg in the future. with all the capabilities he's got for online stuff, and how interesting rail racer turned out to be (it impressed me, and I don't even like racing games too much), that should be good.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-30 02:51:52

Yes, but music can be used for programming too.
Che might be the one to put together the rpg that we need. He's an excellent programmer, and he definitely has resources.

2007-08-30 07:28:14

True, though at one time he also mentioned plans for a kick boxing gam e as well, which might also be fun. One rather sad thing it seems in Ag developement, is that someone will come out with one or two cracking titles and then just stop. this seems to have happened with all of what i used to think of as the Big three, Draconis, gma and Bsc (though Draconis did have something or other to do with Sarah, I got the idea that the majority of the work was done by Phil vlasac), though I suppose Draconis did come up with that site chatting service or whatever it is, pluss Stanley's christmas game, so we at least know they're stil doing something.

Imho it's especially sad about Gma, sinse they have the potential to do some great stuff (I would have put my odds on them for an audio rpg at one point, given shades of doom and tank commander).

It does seem a bit weerd that for every new up and coming developer of accessible games, another seems to grind to a halt.
Just out of interest Sk8, how would you use the music in programming? I'm not precisely sure whether your allowed to use actual mp3 versions of Snes game music in games, though I won't start a big copywrite discussion here sinse I think there are about three going on already on this forum at the moment.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-30 15:38:56

I know you're not allowed to use actual game music in your own projects. So if we put actual Metroid music in this Audio Metroid game we're contemplating, we'd probably run into trouble with the developer since we are talking about a commercial title.
  I'm sorry to say that from Che's comments on the Audyssey list it sounds as though he's decided to stick to the Space Invaders and card game type thingies that everybody seems to put out. The lack of success with Rail Racer is what did it.
  I agree with you about BSC Games. I understand that Justin's also got blindsoftware.com to work on, but after cancelling CQ we hear he's got something new coming out, ut we've heard nothing new about this project in almost two years and we've seen nothing new from them since Blast Chamber, now more than three years ago. So no, I don't have a whole lot of respect for BSC anymore. I mean, an update from time to time would be nice.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-30 21:25:45

If that is indeed what Che martin is planning on doing I'll be incredibly sad, as I said, the only reason I can think of as to why people might have had issues with Rail racer is the way it used a keyboard rather than curser keys as it's main in put, sinse that made it almost impossible for someone to just stick on the game without reading the instructions and at least vaguely play it.

As far as audio Metroid goes, if we are going with a different plot, it would seem logical to have different music for the game's environments anyway, especially sinse a lot of the Metroid music is very much tied to the Metroid universe, ---- eg, a set theme for Samus's appearence, acquiring items and the title screen used in every Metroid game.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-08-31 03:49:09

Well, Che never said that in so many words but he did say he wouldn't be making too many more complex games. His theory on why Rail Racer didn't do so well was that it didn't feature actual cars and familiar race tracks. Instead of, say, a Naascar style game he created a game where you race a futuristic vehicle along some rails, so for some people, and apparently quite a lot, the feeling of racing just wasn't there.
  As for Audio Metroid, I agree with you on the music. Since it's actualy going to be a different story and character we want different music, though I don't see anything wrong with using the Metroid series' music as a source of inspiration. After all, I can't say I've heard game music much more atmospheric than that, unless it be Final Fantasy VI.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2007-08-31 07:31:12

Inspiration indeed, though I can think of several atmospheric soundtracks that would fit the bill as well, The ff games, Xenogears, even Kirby's funpack (aka kirby's superstar), on the Snes has some great music, and of course the Turrican games (which were themselves apparently inspired by Metroid). So many good soundtracks.

On the one hand, I can see what you mean about Rail racer featuring futuristic cars being a slight drawback, especially sinse I believe a few older visually impared people play racing games (there's a review on this site from someone who says as much).

On the other though, the F0 games and other mainstream futuristic racers like Wipe out don't seem to do too badly, but I suppose it's not such a fair comparison given the different markits.

Personally, the thing that most bothered me about Rail racer before I tried the game was the hole racing on rails business, sinse it did sound fairly limiting as an idea for a racing game.

Sinse I always make a point of at least trying out everything I can, I soon obviously found that I was wrong, but I know that there are people who will just read the front page of che's site and perhaps be put off.

An audio Metroid game though (or indeed an audio rpg), hopefully wouldn't suffer from those sorts of problems sinse you could write a nice snappy intro on the website about it.

When I first began with Audio games and had just bought Shades of doom, it was actually the hunter write up that persuaded me to try the game out.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)