2014-12-05 16:25:28

Can people who have tried all the major browsers (IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari) express an opinion concerning the accessibility of each?

It is OK to suggest ways to improve accessibility, but the default state of the browser is always the preferred starting point. You can talk about it from the perspective of any screen reader and/or OS and make comparisons as you like. Obviously, it goes without saying that many opinions are just that, opinions, and there will be no right answer that matches every criterium sought by any person.

You may be wondering why I'm asking. The short answer is that I'd like to know how well Chrome works, because I feel that the duopoly of Firefox and IE on Doze are somewhat of a choice between bad and worse, rather than better and best, as it really should be.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-05 18:17:16 (edited by defender 2014-12-05 18:31:28)

The best, for me is Firefox, the problem with Firefox is that it just flat out refuzes to run right on allot of systems, which is moronic because there is no reason, that and it takes up allot of ram, but, there are allot of accessible pluggins you can get for it off the Firefox addon website that help with running it, ram usage, and accessibility.


These addons aren't hard to install for any brouzer, and actually I'd say that Firefox is the easiest to install addons into even then, so only judging on how they perform at defaults is kind of silly IMO.


I didn't like google chrome when I tried it, first because at the time, every brouzer across the bord was having huge problems with flash, but google chrome just made it so yeah, it worked, but everything stuttered, which I guess was better, but then everything lagged on that page, you also couldn't see the page title with out alt tabbing and alt tabbing back, and all that speed, which is really overhyped by the way it's no faster than Firefox or newer versions of IE on 8 and above, is traded for truely massive amounts of malware breeding, brouzer slowing, OS confusing temp files.


Some of that may have changed, from the last time I used it, though not the temp files thing, I know because I clean out peoples computers allot and that bastard is always 75 percent of the damned problem...


Also remember, google has never been that great with accessibility, lots of their applications just suck with it, they love little flash and java controlled appplits with lots of big pretty pictures for the people to click and drag and play with...  Because it's just soooooooooooo easy!


So don't be surprised if a bunch of important dialogs it comes up with are crap, though NVDA I heard gets better with the google chrone all the time.


IE well, the thing it's used for most, statisticly, is downloading other brouzers...  Really do I need to say more? I do? okay...
It's horribly, laughably slow, vonerable to every security risk there is, including dirty looks, and it's feature set sucks.


To be fare, the newer versions are faster, but only if your on 8 or above,  but you'll need to deal with metro apps, unless that's okay with you and then, I guess, more power to ya, you crazy person?


But yes, my Firefox is tricked out to the extreme and I love it, it took almost no effort to get it this way, and yet I can solve most Captchas, I have a download manager built in with throttle, multiple connection support, network limit bypassing for downloads and brouzing, I can download flash videos from the page, or several at once, I can do the same with all pictures on a page with out knowing where they are or having the original links, I can remove any element I want and put it back, I can stop all running scripts, I can load youtube videos with no adds and with out them autoplaying, then start them when I want and use all the controls sited people can, I can open any link with a vpn, I can see all the coupons for a site at the bottom of the page I'm on  under an unobtrusive heading with a link to a page of them all, I can schedule actions to be done like going to certain pages, downloading something, opening the brouzer etc, for times and days, I can run Firefox with way less ram usage, I can compress the database with a keystroke, I can lock dynamic controls, I can go to the next or previous page in several with a keystroke from anywhere on it, I can make sites always put me on the mobile version of their site which is usually more accessible, and best of all, I get almost no popups at all.


I tried crap sorry on a mac once, I didn't understand why the hell you had to pick the element you wanted to jump to from a list that is long and raps around, I was able to remove and reorganize said list, but it still felt like spinning a giant wheel to pick which page you wanted to turn to in a book, or more accurately what line you wanted to read, or something equally as mideval and inefficient.
I heard you could quote'. set, it, up'. end quote'. to work with keystrokes for those options, my question was, why the hell is it not that way in the first place?  And even if there's actual shortcut key combinations, why should I be performing keyboard acrobatics just to read some stuff on a web page that I may even find out I don't care about in a few seconds?  I'd rather use letter navigation, or at least really short combos like command H.
The people that can use it seem to be really fast with it though, so if you can figure it out, it seems to get the job done, though it missed things that I was able to catch with Firefox on windows on the same pages...


On windows, saphari is sorta meh, kinda between IE and Firefox? least last time I checked, and a bit weird, it's set up also tries to get you to install a bunch of apple shit no one ever needed in the history of the universe on a PC, lol.

But it does work, I just don't see the point it's way different from mac saphari...

2014-12-05 20:59:48

Talking web browsers, best screen reader to use with IE now these days is Narrator on Windows 8 and above. Firefox is a bit nicer if using GNU/Linux instead of Windows, since you can either use the Gecko cursor or the Orca cursor, with a press of a hot key. Also with Firefox and Orca under Linux, you can now make focus  mode sticky, unlike with NVDA under Windows, for those web apps, such as Yahoo Mail.

Hmm. As for Chrome, best screen reader to  browse the web on there, is of course Chromevox, though NVDA, VoiceOver, and "The Shark" have their degree of accessibility, depending on which screen reader used.

As for Flash with web browsers, Chrome users can check out This Extension to turn Flash vids in to HTML5 ones, if there isn't an HTML5 mode already, while FireFox users can check out This page, which although is a guide for users of the Trisquel GNU/Linux Distro, it gives  recommendations on how you can watch Flash vids without needing to actually "install" flash itself. The page linked above is good for "all" Firefox official and "forked" versions.

2014-12-06 00:14:00 (edited by Jason SW 2014-12-06 00:20:41)

Hi Defender,

I would love to know what firefox extensions you use.
I won't use anything other than Firefox these days. I have AdBlock Edge, Better Privacy, NoScript and HTTPS Everywhere installed. All ads are blocked, JavaScript and cookies are only allowed for sites where I absolutely need them, etc.
I've also made some about:config tweaks, such as disabling DOM/offline storage, WebGL, the builtin PDF viewer, etc.
I'd like to know what else you have.

Edit: I also just found a way to disable those annoying alerts asking if you want to install Flash. As a rule, I will not install Any Adobe products, or any Java software on my machines. Absolutely no exceptions.

2014-12-06 21:33:58 (edited by Sebby 2014-12-06 22:38:42)

I appreciate that add-ons/extensions are helpful, but they aren't a good indicator of browser accessibility. For better or worse, multithreaded IE does actually work out of the box, more so once you've configured it of course, but it does work, and actually offers many useful controls for cookie/script blocking, with more advanced configuration without using extra add-ons. Firefox is a bloated, politically-motivated, single-process monstrosity that while it is extendable takes the p|$$ on multicore machines, spinning the CPU almost constantly when a plug-in takes control. I want to use it, but only if the architecture and power-management are improved, and Mozilla stop with this ridiculous dumbing down of the options, because otherwise you need plug-ins just to get essential functionality (like, er, turning javascript on and off).

Safari on Mac has been very excellent for me, though of course the obligatory extensions (Rumola, AdBlock, DaringFireballWithComments) are installed and configured for maximum funness. I do not make the effort to block javascript or first-party cookies--it's pointless on today's interwebs unless you don't intend to read comment threads. Yes, ClickToFlash/ClickToPlugin are an excellent pair of extensions for any browser that'll convert things into HTML5 in many cases, but I often find it easier to just install Flash Player and let it auto-run; only on a few sites does it not, and because the player widget isn't accessible, it can't be used. For the BBC, get_iplayer is your friend, anyway.

Chrome+ChromeVox works, but it's quite different. Unfortunately it seriously breaks the workflow while you're using a screen reader. Chrome on Mac isn't very pleasant, and although it's better on Windows, it probably still makes sense to use CV since that is going to give you the best Google-approved experience. Hence my interest in Trenton's research; with this, I'll get the Google-approved online abstraction, when and if it materialises, but only when the work is adequate for production applications.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-07 00:03:31 (edited by Jason SW 2014-12-07 00:13:07)

Hi Sebby,

Well, if that works for you, then that's fine. I've personally found that IE is an all-or-nothing browser. Things may have improved in newer versions, but at least in older versions, up to IE 8-9, JavaScript and cookies were either totally allowed, or totally blocked... Not very good control, in my opinion.
That's part of the reason why I have IE "uninstalled" from Windows (programs and features -> turn Windows features on or off, in case other people didn't know).

The reason I use Firefox is because it is so configurable. With AdBlock Edge, I can block ads. With NoScript, I can allow scripts to run only on sites that I trust. With HTTPS Everywhere, I can make sure that I always go to the secure version of a site, if available.
I haven't encountered a situation where I absolutely needed Flash or Java recently, and even if I did, I would still not install them, because they are huge security risks. That's why I make all of these modifications. For security. True, no browser can be 100% secure, but the more, the better.

Anyway... Just my opinions. I don't plan on changing my setup any time soon, if ever.

2014-12-07 02:12:37

The following below information, is a "Crosspost" of Post 10 , from Chromibility , for "topic completeness.

Chrome Security Tips

For those of ya on Windows, and wish to have a "more sicure Chrome experience out of the box, ya may wish to look at Comodo Dragon. Warning: Do to how Dragon protects you within the browser, Chromevox ain't gonna work well... You can navigate through Dragon's menus, and interact with the Omnibox/location bar, but that's about it. Any specific browser interaction is intercepted. Dragon works fine with NVDA however. The above was teested of course, while I ws living in the "Windows" world.

For Chromies on any Chrome supported platform, who are "extremely" paranoid with their browsing, or who want a nice pack of extensions to check out, have a look at the [url=http://lifehacker.com/lifehacker-pack-for-chrome-our-list-of-essential-chrom-880863393]Security
Lifehacker Pack for Chrome: Our List of the Essential Extensions.[/url] In that list, there's a section on "Security," where the famous "Adblock Plus" is among that list. However, most Chromies are now instead using the Adblock extension from getadblock.com/ , as "Adblock Plus" wishes to keep some ads unblocked by default do to "sponsorship."

As a bonus, don't wish to deal with Flash content anymore, have a look at the FlashControl extension.

2014-12-07 02:46:27

Flash is absolute bloated garbage, don't bother with it and block it, unless it's absolutely mandatory. And if it's absolutely mandatory, tell the web designer to stop sucking so terribly at web design tongue

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2014-12-07 05:29:08

"Just block Flash" isn't a viable strategy, at least not in the UK, where public money is being squandered on this crap by the BBC. I know, I'm a Mac user; I have had every vile reason to block Flash, and others besides. It just doesn't work, in the real world. sad We can only hope that flashless iOS will continue to erode the need for Flash, but as long as even Google are keeping it alive, I don't hold out much hope that it will be any time soon. Perhaps the ultimate irony will be that EME, that is DRM in HTML 5, will be our saviour--though I have many reasons to absolutely hate that, too, it seems inevitable as content publishers want to have their cake and eat it too.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-07 06:55:50

If you wish to "completely" disable the built-in "Flash" player from "any" Google Chrome product, please see This "official" Google Chrome Support Help page. Applies to "all" "PC" systems.

2014-12-07 14:05:27 (edited by defender 2014-12-07 14:31:37)

I don't care about political drive behind my programs or government funded corperations and what their motives are, if they are all as constantly bad and far reaching as people say, nothing I do will really change that anyway, and they collect so much useless data that mine won't matter any more than the next 50 million peoples data, it's a paranoid headache to constantly worry about, and mostly just a thing for people with way too much time on their hands to freak out about on forum topics and comment sections, and if you do simple things like clean out temp data and only run java and flash when you need it you have very little to worry about anyway security wise, I just want to brouze, not learn how to make bombs, if a swat team shows up at my house, I'll either get shot, tasered, and or thrown in prison or I won't, but probably not either way, I'm not running an enterprise network here so why the hell should I care about all this?


I only use VPN's to get around local security restrictions, if I'm torrenting with bit torrent sync I take some basic extra procautions just because everyone else seems to overly enjoy doing that, but unless your ISP is watching you like a  hawk you never even need it unless your stupid enough to do it in an office or school or something.


Yeah I totally agree that Firefox can be really heavy on processors, but the relatively simple stuff I've done to mine makes it load everything and log me into Webvism, put me on google and load my 20 something plugins in under 10 seconds on a 2.13ghz dual core 2mb l3, 4gb 800mhz ram 2007 toshiba running win 7 64 with default services and 750 to 1.25 gb physical ram with 20 to 30 average CPU usage at startup.


If I can do that with minimal effort with out being on win 8 and only have a first gen I3 processor, than anything other than grandpappy's old special addition underclocked crapbox1000, 1hz non logical single core, 1 bit l1 cash only,  1b 1024 channel ram, running binary assembly alpha 0.01 with 99.99 ram and CPU usage on boot, probably can too.


If these plugins weren't so easy to install I mean hell they come from the site most of them and lots don't even require a restart... I might agree with you on Firefox being out of the accessibility running, but aside from being slow by default and sucking with JAWS which is completely not Firefox's fault, it's already good with accessibility out of the box.


Jason most of my stuf I got from life hackers collection on the addon's page on the Mozilla site, the rest I got from another collection, it's a really popular one should be in the top 10 or what ever it is that show up by default, it's like must have extentions or something?


Here's my list though, just remember some of these have important settings, and I don't enable every one of them all of the time.


Adblock Plus 2.6.6
Blue Box Proxy 1.0.4
DownThemAll! 2.0.17 with DTA 1click
Fasterfox 3.9.85
Flashblock 1.5.17
FlashGot 1.5.6.8
Go-Mobile 2.2.6
Memory Fox 7.4
My Weekly Browsing Schedule 0.8.8
NewTabURL 2.2.3
NextPlease 0.9.2
NoScript 2.6.9.6
Nuke Anything Enhanced 1.1
Remove It Permanently 1.0.6.10
Save File to 2.5.3
Save Images 1.0.7
Tor Flashproxy Badge 0.2.7
Vacuum Places Improved 1.2
WebVisum 0.9.2
YouTube ALL HTML5 2.1.3
Ziftr Alerts 3.1
FlashStopper 1.2.3
RightToClick 2.9.5


MM yeah I also agree that the dumbed down Firefox options are annoying and so is the inability to stop Java, though, you can actually do that through the addons section under the plugins, and same with flash and it does it just fine, it's just not super simple like others but to me it is...

2014-12-07 14:27:22

I've currently got flash running, but I see no reason to keep it around as I can't even click most videos I want to watch with NVDA, as it always seems to say imbedded object unavailable, when using I.E with jaws seems to work fine.  any ideas?  This has been bothering me for a while now.
I'll take a look at the add-on site, didn't know about half of these!

2014-12-07 14:44:42 (edited by defender 2014-12-07 14:45:17)

Dan I have flash blocker enabled for youtube, and what that does is that it puts a button there with the link and name of the file as the buttons label, sometimes it's just a play button but it's easy to find with first letter navigation, when I press it it starts and then I can use O to get to the object, hit enter, and I get controls that I can tab through and adjust, the other buttons also get labeled though this may be webvism or something, doubt it though, also I get no video adds from youtube and that's not addblock plus doing that either, nor noscript.


Flashblock breaks videos on some other sites though, and noscript can break java things, but applications menu has all you need in submenus so you can temp enable or perminantly enable the site or page your on.


What ever you may think of having to install loads of extentions to get what you want, it's an extremely satisfying feeling when you can sit back with a smile and observe that, you've actually done it... you've finally made the internet your bitch!

2014-12-07 14:48:31

thank you for sharing your setup.  Firefox is by far my preferred browser, so if I can make the internet my bitch, I now have a good idea of how to start.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly not the most tech savvy person, something I'd like to rectify one day if I can figure out how.

2014-12-07 18:02:57 (edited by defender 2014-12-07 18:19:38)

Well I'm not that great either, for instance I didn't mess with my config like Jason, but lookin at the Firefox site was enough, and I guess knowing some of the terms helps with some of the settings, especially DTA, but these things are optomised to run well out of the box, the other stuff is just mostly to make your self feel better, or because it's expected out of that type of application, though not many people will admit that, which isn't to say it always is, but enough of the time so that you shouldn't worry so much.


If it's not doing something even slightly noticeable out of the box, then it should be, and if it isn't, someone badly needs to get on that, e.g., why I don't think I want to get into Linux, though desktop isn't as bad with that, but most actually useful things...  Well lets just say the average user would probably get lost quite fast in the miazma of packages that need packages that need special settings that need hand edited config files that need packages that need updates that don't need some packages any more and do need others eventually you may get something cool out of it until any little thing comes along and smash's it all into tiny little peaces with your hopes and dreams, but if your product doesn't help the average user when it's marketed as doing such then you need to change some things.


That said if you do like and know how to use Linux, that's the kind of stuff you live for, because, you enjoy pain and soul crushing disappointment I guess? personally I think BDSM would probably be a better choice than Linux for servers, because Linux for servers and the more basic distros don't give any aftercare accept the sweet, sweet feeling of short lived success.  ROFL


Then again I know some people that have web, radio and game servers that run really well, and torrent nodes, and home streaming servers with NAS and VPN that can stream to anything including but not limited to: a calculator, 2 cann's and a string, IPhones, Androids, Blackberrys, a lime hooked up to an oven timer, the microwave, home security systems, speakers, smart TV's, stupid TV's, Macbooks and PC's, external SDD's and HDD's, marmolade trees and electric bees...
You get the point.


But maybe that means that they are just the most whipped of all?


I don't know, either way they are awesome, lol

2014-12-07 18:44:18

hahaha!  there is absolutely no way that I could've hoped to word that better.

2014-12-08 15:18:05

I use mostly chrom and firefox. I love firefox, but the most downside of it is that it crashes a lot. I can't even watch any video on youtube and load a page consisting of many headings and other stuff. could anybody tell me how to resolve this? so, my firefox version is 33.1, but it crashes a lot, it even make my jaws unresponsive. I have never liked internet explorer, but if we compare  IE and firefox, they are almost equal, but if the developers of firefox work more on how to make it not to crash, they will make it for sure, one of the best browsers in the world, and highly accessible for us especially when using jaws.

2014-12-08 23:02:46

Don't forget to visit youtube.com/html5 to turn on the HTML5 player for many videos. Quick fix that works most places, including embedded vids.

As for Linux, it's servers where it shines, not desktops. Right here, I have a home-made NAS and gateway that beats the crap out of anything made by some shiny tat manufacturer. Or it will be, once I've finished it. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-08 23:11:17

Firefox crashes are not the fault of Firefox if you're using Jaws; go complain at Jaws for being nonstandard in all of their interactions with everything, relying on API and graphics card hooking, etc.  Also, update everything if you haven't: Firefox is pretty much rock solid for me.  But really, Firefox and Jaws haven't ever worked well together, and I don't expect they ever will.  And that's on FS, not FF.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2014-12-09 08:45:27 (edited by defender 2014-12-09 08:46:46)

I don't know, it seems that on allot of systems using NVDA with out Jaws even installed, and with the latest updates to Firefox, as well as the runtimes including Flash and Java up to date, Firefox still crash's allot for a number of people that is just weirdly high and spread between operating system versions with no seeming pattern, which is  really sad because it's so awesome...


This is why so few blind people use it that should probably be doing so, unless they found something that works for them just fine already like Sebby did, for instance, because of the unexplainable crash's.


For a while this was google's homepage interacting badly with FF, and to be fare installing a few extentions helped me allot, and it bareley ever crash's now, but in the beginning it sucked.


Well and the thing about Jaws, weather or not that's FS's fault which I'm sure it is, it doesn't change the outcome.

2014-12-09 15:24:05

I have both JAWS and NVDA, purely in the interests of objectivity. FWIW, it wasn't so much the crashing for me, though I realise this can be a problem for some people, more the massive spikes in CPU load that make both the browser very unresponsive and the machine begin to slow down as a whole as the screen reader itself is impacted. You know there's something up when you need the taskkill tool just because a particular web page decides to use a Flash ad and your last session reload takes minutes instead of seconds. Quite sad really, that Firefox is _still_ a 32-bit process that cannot effectively make use of multiprocessor systems with lots of memory.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-09 16:08:26

I do not have these problems at all.  But then again I have a decently powerful box which, honestly, may not be the norm for blind people.
I was using Jaws and FF, and it was clearly and definitively Jaws.  Jaws for Windows is basically hacks for Windows.  They have trouble with a lot of modern things or at least they did when I left: their 30 years or so of legacy means they're in a bad place to be spec.  All of my Firefox crashes were related to Jaws keyboard hooks failing.  I'm also not known for opening huge numbers of tabs, etc.  It is worth noting that I have a friend who opens literally a hundred or so tabs regularly without issue and that, when I switched to NVDA, all of my Firefox problems basically vanished overnight.
Also, Firefox is apparently working on multiprocessing support of some sort.  And I have yet to see anything that actually benefits from 64-bit in my own experience, so I don't quite see how that helps-if the web browser is using more than 4 GB of ram, they've got other problems.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2014-12-09 19:04:42

Can't disagree that JFW is a bundle of hacks, but it still has its redeeming features, which is why I use it (haven't tried the other guys recently, actually, so I should). I usually have about 30 tabs open; can't recall going much beyond that. I'm definitely an information sponge though and like very much to sync/suspend/resume sessions a lot. While I support the argument that memory conservation is a good strategy, it's also not a very good excuse for being 32-bit, either. In fact Mozilla seem to be chopping features--any feature at all, really--to keep to this pointless and old-world limit. I realise Mozilla are hard pressed enough as it is, but love 'em or hate 'em, both Google and Apple have gone multiprocess 64-bit and the performance and powersaving are absolutely there. We don't need to be constrained to 4GB, and even if we did, it ought to be per runaway javascript interpreter, not the whole browser, because sadly we aren't living in an ideal world where web pages and plug-ins can be trusted. And yes both Safari and Chrome are memory hogs, which is of course the other side of the coin. But yeah, I've got 16 GB of memory here; I'll be fine.

I don't know, I'll try again on a Fresh Win7 install to get Firefox working, as I do see the accessibility advantages. I'm just a bit annoyed at this bloody mediocrity. Come on Mozilla!

Just myself, as usual.

2014-12-09 19:51:02

This may be of interest to you.
As for Jaws, I'm curious what you need.  NVDA is getting ready to have browse mode support for Word, for example.  I know JFW has a lot of domain-specific stuff, but as a programmer, switching to NVDA was the best thing I ever did.  If you've not seriously tried them recently (i.e. last year or so), you might want to look again.  My objections to jaws are philosophical, but most people don't disagree with them; unfortunately, one of the two main ones is something that only programmers can really appreciate.
Even with them, I didn't leave until my authorization broke and I had no choice but to use a dongle and was forcing shutdowns more than twice a week because, when applications went unresponsive, sometimes Jaws would kill the keyboard along with them.  I know it was Jaws because I used NVDA on the same machine with the same software for 6 months or so after I switched; and my Firefox crashes were due to this plus the fact that, with Jaws, Firefox often goes unresponsive.  In the specific case of Firefox, there's apparently a deadlock somewhere that causes Firefox to not come back.  Hence, no keyboard or mouse.  I didn't leave because adblock+ is a killer feature and, as a programmer, >50% of my time (not my time on the computer, literally all of my time) is spent on a myriad of random web sites looking bits and pieces up.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2014-12-09 20:09:16

sorry Camlorn, that's not an answer. firefox does even crash when using NVDA. It's almost the same. Fortunately it's working a bit better using jaws 16 which was improved in some ways. I also think that processor and ram play an important role regarding to this problem. I have a laptop and a desktop with different specifications and in my desktop computer powered by a processor 3.0 GHZ it runs faster and it doesn't crashes so much, while in my laptop with a 1.4 GHZ processor it crashes frequently.