2014-04-19 10:27:50

hi.
i want to know speak latin.
i have an idea: when i'll grow up, maybe i will upgrade the latin to speakeble every day language.
what do you think?
so, i want to speak latin.
someone can help?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-19 13:32:36

One question, Why?

Unless you want to be a classical scholar and read virgil and plutarch in their original languages or study the history and litergy of the catholic church, I'm not sure why you would want to speak latin.

As for help, well it's not really something you can just learn like that, I'd recommend finding a classics course if your interested and doing the thing properly, though be certain you know what your getting into.

Regarding latin as a spoken language, well Latin was! a spoken language for  several hundred years (by the romans if nothing else), and it's possible to learn, although nobody  actually speaks it as an everyday language anymore and it's only really used for historical purposes sinse it became the language of scholarship for so many years.

Occasionally modern books are still  translated into Latin, I even heard there is a Latin  translation of Harry potter, but these are usually more a novelty than anything else sinse it's not as if anyone actually speaks latin as a first language anymore.

So, if you want to learn latin, I'd recommend doing the thing properly, but be certain you know why and what your getting into first.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-19 15:02:32 (edited by paddy 2014-04-19 15:28:03)

Salve,
What a coincidence that I stumbled upon this! smile
The thing is, you cannot just learn Latin in a few weeks or months. I, for example, am learning Latin in school, and it's definitely not that easy as expected. You can, of course, do it if you learn vocabulary and loads of grammar, for example the "Ablativus Absolutus", the "Particip Perfect Passiv", "Particip Praesens Activ" as well as loads of word-endings, combined with the futur grammar, the past, et cetera.

I'll give you an example:
Maybe you know the film "Life of Brian", my currently favourite one, even if it is from the late 70s! big_smile
"Ire" is the latin verb form for "to go".
In the movie, the main character, Brian, was writing "Romanes eunt domus" onto a wall. He actually wanted to say "Romans go home", but written like that, it would mean "Humans called "Romanes" go the house".
So, the officer forced him to decline the word "ire": to go. This would be like the following.
You first need to know the six word endings for plural and singular persons:
Singular
o: I
s: you
t: he/she/it
Plural
mus: we
tis: you
nt: they

Well, now you should be able to decline "ire":

Singular
eo: I go
Is: you go
It: he/she/it goes
Plural
Imus: we go
itis: you go
Eunt: they go

The singular for "Roman" is "Romanus". The plural form is "Romani".

Let's head back to "ire".
We now know how to decline it, but in this case, "ire" is an order!
The singular in this case for "go!" is "I!" So, what's the plural? "Ite!"

"Domus" just means "house/home". Since you want the romans to go to their house/home, you have to form the following sentence:
Romani ite ad domum!

You see, it's a lot more difficult than English or other, still existing languages. Hmm, maybe Chinese is still one of the most difficult languages, Latin is definitely a lot of easier! big_smile
NOTE: Not every sentence can be verbally translated. You sometimes need to reform the translated sentences so it will actually make sence to you and the others.
Example: Ad Forum ascendo.
Rough translated, just read and verbally translated from left to right, it would mean "To the market I go up". In this case, you have to reform the sentence, so it means "I go up to the market."
If you think you're up to it, you may try translating my signature.
Hints:
Dare: to give
facere: to make / to do something

If my Latin magister reads this, please do not blame me if I made any mistakes. This is just an example, which should not be used as a tutorial (Tutorium) for beginners.

About Monty Pythons "Life of Brian", you may check blind mice mega mall, they have the audiodescribed version of it, you have to search for "Monty Python".

Talking about my rude Magister *grin*, last year he was organizing a project called "Latin on the web", which basically revolved around Latin today and where it is still been used. We even talked about "The inquisitor" and played it in Latin! It was quite amusing! big_smile

Vos saluto maxime,
Scholar Patricus.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-04-19 16:38:43

Hi Paddy.

interestingly enough, while I've never studdied latin, I did spanish at school, and am currently learning to speak Italian, in order that I can sing in it convincingly.

Both languages have a very similar scheme of altering the endings of all verbs and most nowns as you describe, although Italian uses more pronowns than Spanish, and often has some quite formal ways of saying things. For example, for most Italian verbs if you are talking about events in the past you can't just say "I went home" you would need to say "I have traveled home"

There is also similarly an imperative form of each verb which you would use in giving orders to people directly as well, for example when in the Simpsons episode set in Itally side show bob says "Manjate" for lets eat, that is actually incorrect, what he said ws "you eat" he should've said "Majete" (note I might have my italian spellings wrong sinse I'm learning it primarily to converse in).

I don't actually find it that difficult, though I imagine if I hadn't been familiar with the way spanish works I wouldn't have found Italian as easy. All I need now is a decent English/Italian dictionary, preferably on the Iphone that can give me the odd words and bits of vocabulary I might need, sinse my teacher has gone through a lot of the gramma with me.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-19 17:30:22

hi.
i want not only the latin make a everyday language but the following:
aramic and old russian which cold "slovianskiy".

kamochek.

2014-04-19 18:47:58

Hi. I am also learning latin in school, and as paddy said, it is rather difficult.
Since i am listening to the band Powerwolf who use latin in there lyrix i am more and more interistet in the way, latin was used in the church.
I was in the same event with paddy playing the inquisitor in latin.
In nomini patri et spiritus sanctus hoc damium malus esse deletam.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.

2014-04-19 19:04:37

hi.
i also tryed to play the inquisitor in latin.
some questions:
now, the latin isn't used in the church?
what do you think of making speakeble the aramic and the old russian languages?
in the russian orthodox church they are using other russian, not the russian which you know.
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-19 20:23:44

@Camochek, about Iramic and old russion it's something I've simply not heard of, heck regular Russian is likely hard enough for an English speaker big_smile. Though as I said if there are works from the  Russian orthodox church you wish to study fair enough, just the same way latin would be useful if you wanted to studdy original works from the Roman catholic church.

Latin does seem to have made it's way into a lot of things, from final fantasy 7, (the sephiroth one winged angel), to epic metal performances like Luka Terreli. Indeed I believe that as for so long it was used purely as a language of litergy and sacred works the sound of latin has become a signifyer for something powerful or important.

One thing that particularly amuses me is when latin is used for names of related things. my favourite of these is the main character's sword in Gene wolfe's shadow of the torturer series, it's name is terminus est, which according to a friend of mine literally translates as "it ends here" which is a good name for an executioner's sword big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-19 20:51:51

At our school, we do not only learn Latin because we were just too lazy to learn French and as a resultatem, we were left alone with Latin or something like that. lol
In fact, while learning Latin, you also learn about special events which happened in the past, like the great Pompeji event when the Visuv killed a whole city or about Hanibal from Carthago, who was trying to defeat the Romans. You also learn something about the culture in the past, what they were eating, what slaves were good for, etc.
Sometimes we watch movies (not in Latin, of course) and make trips to special places. We also gather useful information from the text, while translating it. In my opinion, it is better to translate texts which describe different events which could have happened in the past, than just translating a randomized text like "Hello, what's your name? I'm someone requesting to be anonymus. When did you get the bus? At 6pm, but it arrived later. When did the bus actually arrive? About fiffteen minutes later, but I was too lazy waiting that long, so I took a taxi."

You see, the other method is definitely more effective. big_smile

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-04-19 21:38:14

hi dark.
you didn't hared of aramic/iramic?
it is a language like arabic and hebrew, but today are not speaking in this language.
only a serian orthodox liturgies are in aramic, and some jewish prayings are in aramic.
also some books from the old testament or the tanah, are in aramic like book of ezrah.
and i don't going to learn catholic works, because i'm a messianic jew, and i don't want to confuze myself with all these things.
but i think: if i was the pope of the whole catholic world, i told to cancel the prayings to saints and also if i was a pope i could tell to remove the pictures and the statues from the churches, and then the catholic church became like the first jewish christianity.
what do you think of this idea?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-20 13:49:48

@paddy, with Italian I'm actually trying to learn to converse in it so knowing how to say order stuff in a restaurant is actually helpful, though i agree if I was bothering to learn written translation I'd probably want something more interesting to do. I have learnt about roman history previously, indeed I've visited several roman sites in Britain myself such as Hadrian's wall and a reconstructed Roman military fort, so I do appreciate that end of things albeit I never learnt the stuff in Latin.

@Camochek, I realize the issue, Aramaeic I have heard of, as the language which jesus probably would've spoken and which a lot of the early christian writings were written in, it was just the pronunciation by supernova of what you wrote that was confusing.

As regards the Pope, well that's really a different discussion and not related to Latin at all, but one thing I will say is you seem a bit quick to call other traditions of christianity incorrect.

I do not know the reasons for a lot of catholic traditions, but I'd prefer to find out a little more about them myself before making up my mind.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-20 14:16:44 (edited by paddy 2014-04-20 14:22:18)

About the pope thing, even if it's off-topic:
As a protestant christian myself, I disagree to a few things the pope is doing, like forbidding gay-marriage, which is definitely discrimination for gay people. I don't want to discriminate anybody, being gay is definitely nothing to be ashamed of!
Anyway, as a pope, you cannot just go and remove christian pictures and other signs. It's rediculous, let's go and tell the muslems to live like the Christians or the Jewish either.
The thing is: I respect the Jewish, the Muslems, the Buddhists and any other religions, as long as they are harmless and don't follow any goals terrifying anybody. So, why should I go and destroy parts of their religion and any of their sacrifies? This doesn't make sense in any way.

@Dark
I was thinking about learning Italian some day. We have a volunteer Italian group at school, but I don't think joining in the middle of the year would lead to success, since they are already a little further experienced, so I might try joining it in my next grade and learn from the beginning with all the other beginners.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-04-20 15:50:47

hi paddy.
maybe the religions which you told are harmless, but i don't think for example that the budists will go to heaven, because they believing in many gods, and making thiers statues and praying to these statues, thinking that they'll help them.
the orthodox jews in israel not liking the messianic jews, which are the followers of the urly christianity.
i saw on the internet a messianic person just passed near the orthodox jews, and they all started to shout: "go away! go! go from us!" and etc.
another example: one orthodox jew was a messianic jew for 7 years.
then he went to a raby, and talked to him and told that he needs a help in his believing.
the raby read to him a peases from the bible, the old testament only,
and then seeing in the end of the video that the man took the new testament and burned it.
in the talmud, writing about jesus that he wasn't a jew, he didn't love his father, and all the things which he did such as heeling sicks and etc he learned a magic in eygept and another things like that.
i so hate that, and i thinking when i'll grow up, i'll burn the talmud books.
and paddy, a question for you: which protestant you are?
there are lutherans, anglicans, baptists, pentacostalists and etc.
so which protestant are you, paddy?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-20 19:37:20

So what? They are all believing in their own way, so why should I try to stop them believing in different gods so they all believe in only one god?

About the type of protestant, we believe in Martin Luther, who founded the protestant Christianity because he disagreed about the catholics, which is understandable. So I think I am a Lutheran, that would make sense to me.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-04-21 08:11:12

h paddy.
about that you are a lutheran: ofcorce.
i meen to say:
i've checked your website, and there is an english and deutch selection, so it means if i'm not mistaken that you living in germany.
i think the lutherans are most of the people in germany, because from germany the reformation has begun.
more of the people i mean: in israel the main religion is the jewdaism. there are christians and muslim in israel, but most of the people are jews.
so if i'm wright, in germany most of the people are lutherans.
or maybe there are also nacists in germany, which believing in hitler's things?
or today there are no nacists?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-21 09:24:58

The language is actually called Aramaic, not aramic. But the facts are right... think of it as the semitic latin, in that it was the original language which influenced many languages including Modern Hebrew. Butt it's still spoken by very isolated Jewish and certain Christian groups all over the world. Probably the most well-known representation of the language is the film The Passion of the Christ, which has reconstructed Aramaic and Latin as the primary languages.

Disclaimer: Read the next part only if you're open-minded about the views that may appear biased. I don't mind discussion... but I am not trying to start a flame war here. Only to encourage civilized conversation.
Paddy, you bring up some interesting ideas. Though I have to disagree about other religions being harmless... I respect other peoples' beliefs and don't shove my beliefs down peoples' throats, but I believe that the religions you mentioned do have golals that do in fact go against biblical teachings. As a Christian who came to faith two years ago when I was 19, it's grown apparentl to me that if you believe all of the teachings held by Christian belief... then other religions such as Buddhism can be considered idolotrous, because of the worship of statues or ancestor worship. Having said that though, each person has the right to what they believe. Just because I've chosen to base my life on a personal relationship with god doesn't mean everyone will... and though my wish and prayer is that all the people around me come to see the Truth and light of Christ, practically I realize that that may just never happen. As to your question why you should tell people about God and pray for their conversion... again, if you hold to all the beliefs, then anyone who hasn't accepted God's gift of salvation is separated from God and not going to a good place after death.

Discord: clemchowder633

2014-04-21 11:14:41

@Camochek, firstly you are incorrect,  budhists don't believe in many gods specifically, they belive that follwing the teachings of the buder and meditating will bring inner peace and something better in the next life. Budhism isn't so much about worshipping a god as coming to a sense of peace with yourself and the universe, so you are directly incorrect there. I've myself talked to several budhists and read their texts and definitely believe that the forms of meditation and philosophy practiced have a great deal of value, indeed I tend to think that the way budhists atune themselves to th universe probably brings them closer to what christians think of as God.

Even for those religions like Hindus, what right have you! to say that they are just preying to statues. A hindu could see you in front of a cross and say your praying to two bits of wood stuck together.

You also seem unaware that in hinduism, it is often said that all the different Gods are aspects of one supreme being, but each emphasises a different aspect or is a different perspective, rather like the story of the six blind men and the elephant, indeed I once heard a hindu chap ask why it was wrong to believe in many aspects of God when christianity already had three of them.

I'd not be so quick to judge other beliefs until you know a little more about them and! until you have questioned your own. Likewise while I agree that jew was wrong to burn the new testiment that doesn't make it right for you to start burning religious books either. Remember what one of the jews said when the Nazis started burning coppies of the talmud, ---- those who begin by burning books end by burning people.

@Paddy Italian would be harder to learn half way through, but if you start next year you'll certainly find that your latin studdies will be of help to you.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-21 13:52:17

Kamochek, I'm not a Buddhist myself, but I have studied Buddhism in college and one thing I can say is that your perception of them is not correct. As Dark outlined in a post above Buddhists follow the teaching of Buddha and try to come to a sense of peace with themselves and the universe around them through meditation and by avoiding personal attachment to people, places, and things. Its an altogether different belief system than Christianity and should not be judged without knowing more about it.

Likewise regarding your ideas of being the Pope I think you need to realize there are boundaries of what you should or should not do when dealing with others beliefs. Regardless of if your religious beliefs are right or wrong what right would you have to take over the Catholic church and get rid of their belief in intercessory prayer or to discard statues, paintings, and other religious art which decorate many Catholic churches and cathedrals?

The point I want to make here is its not an issue of being right or wrong, but an issue of respect. It is the greatest form of disrespect to walk into someone else's church and order someone to change their beliefs based on some self-righteous claim that your beliefs are better than theirs. Even if your beliefs end up being more valid or can be proven to be true that does not grant you a right to force those beliefs onto another human being. If anything history has proven that forced conversion does not work, and only causes more problems than it solves.

I don't know how much history you have studied, particularly European history, but during the Protestant Reformation the Catholic church tried to stomp out Protestantism by torturing Protestants, burning bibles, and in extreme cases burning Protestants alive for heresy. As we can now see all of those efforts failed, and a lot of people suffered unnecessarily. I don't think you are advocating anything that extreme, but you can't just tell people what to believe or how to live and expect them to not resist your attempt to change their beliefs.

I also think burning the Talmud or any other religious text is a great sign of disrespect. Not only to its religious followers but it is also a loss of knowledge. A wise person studies things, tries to understand others points of view, and weather they agree with them or not they will use that knowledge to improve themselves or to argue more effectively as to why that other person is wrong about something. Burning someone's religious books does nothing to understand the points of views expressed in it, and arrogantly assumes that your beliefs are absolutely right. It is a very immature and uneducated way of looking at others beliefs, and what good would it really do to destroy someone else's religious texts anyway?

For example, I assume you have a bible. It might be braille, on audio tape, on CD, an electronic format like txt. Now,assume I come to your house and destroy it. Would that really do me any good, and would it actually change your beliefs?

Of course, it wouldn't. All it would do is destroy your copy of the book and prevent you easy access to it. Further more my intentional destruction of your religious books would make you angry at me and cause you a legitimate reason to dislike me. So any objective I may have had of converting you to my point of view would have been a failure. So don't burn the Talmud or any other religious book because that just is the wrong way to go about dealing with others of a different religious upbringing than you.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2014-04-21 14:46:54

hi.
ok, about the budhism i'm understood.
but a question: there are still religions which believing like the greeks and romans: for example: god of rain, god of love, godess of the death and etc.
a question is: in ouer days there are people which believing in these things?
about my history studies: the history lesens in israeli schools starting only from grade 6.
in grade 6 the subject of the book was: ainchant greece, kingdom of jewda, jerusalem and the romans.
in the jerusalem subject, which was the final subject in the book, telling about jesus and the urly christianity.
in grade 7 and grade 8, learning history begining from the 5th century and ending with the 16th century.
learning at first how the barbarians came to a christianity, about carl the grate, the birth of the islam, about the jews in europe, about how the cities were built, about the crusades, about the catholic buildings and art, about the rekonkista and the life of the jews in spane in the 15 century, about the black pluage, about colombus and the explorers of the 16 century, about the printing revalusion in the 15 century, about the renesance and finaly about the reformation.sorry if something you can't understand, because all these things i not realy know how there names in english.
and about the latin: maybe there are audio lesens, so that i can listen of the correct pranonsiation of the latin?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-21 15:57:24

I don't know any audio latin but you will probably find stuff if you look around.

As regards whether people actually believe in many gods today, some people might, but in terms of major religions I've not heard of many. Hidnuism as I said as far as I understand it is the idea of God in different aspects, similarly with celtic or wicken beliefs. of course you always get minority religions who believe some very odd things, I for example once met a chap who belonged to a modern day temple worshipping the god Mithras, a God who many of the roman army believed in although Mithras wasn't derived from the roman or griek gods like Zeus, Aphrodite etc and I believe came from somewhere in persia.

Certainly in terms of major religions though i can't think of any with multiple gods, though I admit I don't know as much about say siekhism or certain eastern beliefs like Shintoism or confusionism.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-21 21:39:48

Shintoism isn't considered as much a religion as a way of life. At least, not by the Japanese folks I've chatted with who follow it. As to Buddhism though... there are some sects of Buddhism which believe in Gods, or at least higher beings called Bodhisadfa, who are enlightened people who have crossed over to the other side who remain there to, in a fashion, interceed for and watch over the people on earth. And Hinduism, though the Gods represent different aspects of one overall being, most hindus I've talked to still consider the religion to be a polytheistic one. But I don't know as much about Hinduism as I do about Buddhism, since I grew up with a primarily buddhist family. I do find some of the things they teach valuable, morally speaking... but there are more fundamental practices are ones I don't hold any stock to simply because they go against the Bible, and while they may be beautiful practices, because of my own experiences with God, I couldn't commit to them as a way of life. But I do believe buddhism is a fascinating religion and love reading about it.

In the end though, I agree with Dark and Tward... there's no room for twisting someone's arm until it breaks when it comes to religious matters. I believe in sharing the Gospel with as many people as I can, but not in any way that's awkward or tramples on their own beliefs... whether they accept it or not is up to them. But we have no right to go around talking about burning other religious texts. And I appologize if any of my last post trod on anyone's toes.. that wasn't my intention.
smile

Discord: clemchowder633

2014-04-21 22:11:48

hi assault-freak.
which christian you are?
i mean: which confesion of christianity you are?
if you are a protestant, which protestant you are inside the protestantism?
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-21 22:54:03

I'm pentecostal.

Discord: clemchowder633

2014-04-21 23:20:59

hi assault-freak.
oh! i think it's grate!
so please if you want: pray for my father that he'll let me to go to the messianic congregation (they are doing almost the same things like the pentacostalist, but jewish things are added like the urly christianity).
please pray for my father that he'll let me to go to there, because he is a traditional jew and he doesn't let to me and my mother to go to there, and also he taking the wyfy if seeing me visiting pentacostalists website.
and also please pray for that the god will make me sighted, will give me a tees and solv my other problems in the body.
do you believ that the god can do that?
and i have a question:
2 days ago, i listened to a pentacostalist, and he told that the baptism by the holy spearit can't be without speaking in a strange language.
i'm never spoke that, so it means that i still didn't baptised by the holy spearit?
and please pray also for that.
kamochek.

kamochek.

2014-04-22 02:58:12

I will pray for you, sure... but without turning this into a sermon, let me just say that you have to ask yourself why you want those things. Is it to make yourself feel happier, or to glorify God and his kingdom?

And the baptism of the holy spirit is something that we can all experience. but only if you are in a personal relationship with God... you have to ask yourself whether you have that relationship, or whether you just believe in God because your family and culture says you should.

Discord: clemchowder633