2007-01-06 17:47:30

Hello everyone,
first of all, you'd excuse me for not checking this website for a long long time. I promise to do it more from now on, satisfied? big_smile
Well. The reason that I begin my first visit in this long time with this topic is that there's something going on in LTI (or Lighttech Interactive, in other words.). I don't know if you know it, but we at LTI have begun developing interactive fiction (text adventure) games along with audio games. For those of you who don't have enough information about IF's, IF is a kind of game where you play with typing. How good you are does not depend on your reflex or mind-to-hand coordination, but on your thinking, deciding, imagining, and sometimes your English. (Of course being an Ammerican would not make this game easier because you also need to have brains, you know. tongue). To make this streight, it's _almost_ an offline mud. Almost.
More questions on interactive fiction would be answered by me personally or by anyone who has enough information about that.
For now, I'm doing the job of programming the game (called Eria) with the sincere help of other LTI members (like Robjoy). However,I am looking for beta testers who are intrested in beta testing these kinds of games. These people would be members of LTI team, but are considered as another kind of beta testers (Interactive Fiction Beta Testers), so if you hope that by being an IF beta tester, you'd become an audio game beta tester, you are in fact very wrong. This gives people who are intrested (and those who were complaining to me that why they have not got a chance to join us) a chance to show themselves and be a part of us; We'd be happy to have you with us.
People who are certain that they are going to join can send an email to my mailbox at:
[email protected]
If you haven't decided yet, or you have a question, I (and other Lighttechers) would be happy to hear it on this forum. Untill the LTI IF section is completely up and running, your questions concerning interactive fictions would be related to me. Please, don't send emails to other members of LTI (they'd tell you if they want you to) asking about interactive fiction; They'd just forward it to me. So why not make the way shorter? Lol.

2007-01-06 19:11:09

Sounds an interesting project, I look forward to it. Unfortunately I don't feel I could test right now.

And lol being British doesn't help any either because most IF games use the US English spellings. You wonder why it's not accepting a command and it turns out you have a S where the game expects a Z.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2007-01-06 19:35:45

Lol yeah; That'd make the situation worse. Hehehe. Imagine me trying to play IF's when I didn't know what, for example, a "pole" meant. So I had to figure out what it meant and how to use it and stuff. Man that was pretty hard and it still is.

2007-01-07 01:58:02

If you would be so good as to outline the potential duties of a tester here, I would give you a straighter answer as to whether or not I could help you.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2007-01-07 05:49:52

Hi Parham and everyone else, unfortunately I'm now backat uni (or at least, back in my room in colidge, the term doesn't start for a couple of weeks yet).

I hope everyone had a good Christmas or whatever, unfortunately you've got to put up with my drivle once again.

robjoy mentioned something about writing an If game before Christmas, I'm glad it's materializing. What language are you using? Which interpreter will be neccessary to play it? or are you being extremely clever and programming completely from scratch?

Anyway, I'd certainly be interested in testing iether audio games or If, and I do have some experience with interactive fiction. My only concern is, given the amount of possibilities in If games, how much time would the testing take? Would i have to type 30 different commands at each prompt just to see what happens?

I do think writing If is a good idea, particularly sinse there are lots of sited people who are also keen If fanswho might also try Light cars etc if they visited Light tec (publicity for audio games would be a good thing).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-07 11:33:55

Hello again,
As an answer to Jade, the beta tester should probably have about one year of IF playing experience. Other than that, a walkthrough is given to the beta tester to find out how good the outline of the game is. The beta tester, however, would be recommended to try to figure out the puzzles on his/her own before looking to the walkthrough, so that we could decide how hard the game is. After deciding about the things above, since the game is still under development and has come about one tenth of the way, the more experienced beta testers would be allowed to give their suggestions, since we're going to bring great, high quality IF games to the blind (and even sighted) comunity for free, so Lighttechers would not decide on the game themselves, but would appreciate any help from trusted members. This game is going to take part in some IF compititions, so keep in mind that we are not only working for the blind; The power of the blind would be shone all around the world!

And about what Dark Empathy said, I'm using Inform7 to program the games. Although it is called "natural language", it's not as easy as it seems, you know. And i'm sure every blind IF player has "Winfrotz with speech" on their computer (which I don't usually suggest to others), it's playable by winfrotz or any other Inform interpreter.

2007-01-11 23:39:51

Hi,
Beta testing is the process of making sure the game works the way it's supposed to, and that there aren't any spelling, grammar, punctuation or similar errors.  Good beta testers also do things which are totally unnecessary in the game, just to try to break the game and/or generate absurd replyes.  Here is an example description, and some of the things a beta tester might try.

Some room description
Supreme Commander Ather, straight out of "Judgment Day," is standing right here!
You can also see a piano here.

Ok now with that information, a beta tester might...

get piano
eat piano
play piano
play (any song title) on piano
give piano to ather
throw piano at ather
hit ather with piano
ask ather about satellite
tell ather about secret weapon
ather, go north
ather, Where did you get those rockets?
hit ather
kiss ather
kill ather
burn ather
piano, go north

Ok, you get the idea.  For example, if a beta tester is able to give the piano to Ather, obviously something's wrong.

2007-01-12 00:11:58

It was the endless possibility trying that slightly worries me about If testing, but if we get a walkthrough and can see what the recommended replies are, then as long as we try the common varients to avoid guess the verb situations I think things will be okay. I usually trie lots of mad things in If anyway, like asking any charactor anything I can think of that they might answer. In one of my favourite If games in fact (world's appart), I even once typeed:

"Ask Sahl about life, the universe and everything"

Because I knew the game was so huge and well written he'd have an answer.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-12 10:13:52

Generally, if you're betatesting a game, you just have to play it, and the programmer can learn from the way you solved the game. It is necessary, because i can say this is an easy puzzle, you just have to open a door, and then it'll work, but not everyone have the idea to examine  a wall to discover the door to open.
So, if you feel you have time to try everything then you can, but if you feel you can't, just play the game, make notes where you feel they're appropriate, and then just give the transcript to the author(s).
There are various beta testers who just plays the game usually, and there are ones who tries to do everything which can be normally impossible. So, again, it is up to you how you do it, but in this case, as far as you play it and you have a comment or a transcript, it is enough.
Eria probably will participate in the 2007 if competition, and probably it'll have a second episode, since its story is so extended that it is possible to write many games, according to it.
In this point i have to mention that inform 7 really rocks, i always wanted to make if games, just i was too lazy to learn a language for that. But now, since it is much easier, my dream became possible.
Have a nice day,
Robjoy

----------
Robjoy, AKA Erion
Visit my site for all the things I do and to contact me.
You can also stop by for a slice of Pi

2007-01-12 10:47:33

Dark, last time the beta testers got on my nerves sending email after email that "we want a solution! We want a solution!". I swore that it is my first and last time that I'm posting a solution, but I was so angry that I wanted to relieve myself from this thing. Eria is not character-to-character interactive as much as it has puzzles. Guess the verbs situations are so wide (for example, you can type about 10 verbs in a situation) that you wouldn't have much problems with it if you know what to do. I'm not good at guess the verb situations myself, and this is hard for everyone. But we are developing an in fact very hard game and this is why, it is about 72 hours that I'm trying to streighten a simple point with the plot, just because I _feel_ something is wrong with it!
You'd find a lot of punctuation and gramatical (and sometimes spelling) errors in Eria, because English is not our (mine and Robjoy's) first language, but the puzzles are kind of surprising sometimes, and funny at the other situations. For example, in a point, a wall chases you through the building, and it's just clear what you should do. But it's needed to take the plot further... You certainly know what I mean.

2007-01-13 02:58:20

Hmmm, the wall chasing you situation reminds me of one of my favourite programs when I was litle (knightmare as it happens).

As to puzles, they can quite often be fun, but I always like If that has a strong plot element as well, with the puzles revealing more of the plot. For example, in Babel (which I know Robjoy's played), the thing that pleased me most when I solved the puzle with the barrier and the bar was that it gave me access to the rest of the base, and more of the charactor's flashbacks, as well as increasing my score. In games like the original Zork I often feel that just getting treasure for wrapping your mind around a puzle is a bit of a letdown. Pluss, Zork has one puzle (the maze outside the troll room), that drives me absolutely crazy for the amount of repetition and rather pointless work required. I'm afraid in that one I just used a faq.

As far as beta testing goes, perhaps one duty of the tester in an If game is to let the authors know about alternative verbs (especially when authors and testers come from different countries so might have a different vocabulary), though obviously not for everything! just when the outcome of a puzle depends upon it.

As far as help goes, I always rather like the invisiclue system used in the infocom and other games, because it gives you just enough help, and no more, and also doesn't tell you what to do, just answers a question (sometimes a completely irrellivant one), and so doesn't spoil the progression of the game.. I think the Zork maze is the only time I've been dissatisfied with the invisiclues system.

Inform 7 is that! easy Robjoy? maybe I'll have to try making my own If game one of these days, ---- though of course the audio game maker is next on my list of possible creative projects.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-13 09:48:52

Yep. Babel is probably the one game I love. So is the new game which was released a month ago called "last resort".
I'm trying despraitly to have a great plot since it is one of the strong points in compititions like raif (rec.arts.int-fiction),so this is why I'm still struggling with the thing Robjoy suggested.
Also, there is only one guess the verb puzzle which I have put... Let's count... Yes, 12 verbs for it in the next release (which will be out soon after I figure out what to do about the next puzzle).

2007-01-13 11:40:40

Yep, Babel is good, it also reminds me of the first ever If game I played which was Dreamhold by Andrew Plotkin, which is an introduction game on how to play If, but also a dinstinctly fun fantasy with some rather interesting puzles, and a very good plot. The reason it reminds me of babel is that throughout the game you have to collect paper masks, and wearing each mask reveals a litle of the backstory to the game, rather like the glowing blue objects in Babel.

I'll have to try out Last resort if it's similar.

Twelve verbs is certainly a lot, hopefully that should avoid confusion, even taking into account the fact that I am easily confused.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-13 12:26:28

Well before each new beta version is released, we'll give out a walkthrough for those who couldn't complete the game to catch up, so don't worry. Also, you can ask for hints!

2007-01-13 20:22:21

probably Eria will have a hint system which will be able to give you hints if you're stuck.

----------
Robjoy, AKA Erion
Visit my site for all the things I do and to contact me.
You can also stop by for a slice of Pi

2007-01-14 00:55:05

Such things can be good, particularly when a balance is found betwene giving you a litle nudge in the right direction and telling you far too much.

the If game I was playing yesterday, Earth and Sky episode 3 by Paul O-brian, had a fairly fantastic hints system of that type.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-14 06:20:56

Heh. The best hint system is for "Last Resort". Let's say I ask for help with a ruby which I haven't found yet. It says,
"Go found it, then ask about it. But it's useful, you know.".
Something like this. tongue

2007-01-14 07:23:31

Okay...I've got some experience with interactive fiction, but not tons. I'm a well-versed video game player, however, and am one of the key  people working on puzzles and quests for the browser-based RPG in progress (see other topic).
I have one question though: WinFrotts, or whatever it's called...I'm pretty sure I've used it before, but the speech is hideous, and with many words that have odd punctuation, there's no way to check the spelling. If I could get a little help with such an interpreter, I'd love to help with interactive fiction.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2007-01-14 07:35:26

Click on the link below to download a winfrotz version that works with Hal/JFW/Window-Eyes:
http://vip.saf.ir/khademi/WinFrotzR53.exe
It's an EXE extracting archive.

2007-01-14 09:47:30

Hmmm, Jayde, it sounds like you used the Win frotz tts program, which is a version of Win Frotz that outputs text directly to Sapi (the synth voice that comes with windows Xp). As you said, the voice isn't great, and some things in the games can cause trouble as well.

But sinse just about all Interactive fiction is text anyway, if you've got a screen reader you should be able to use any standard If interpreter program (like win frotz), with no trouble at all as Parham said.

As to hints systems I agree that the hints should be a last resort, but even when you resort to them, they should gradually reveal information so that you stil have to do at least some thinking (unless your really stuck). This is why , as I said, the invisiclues used in the infocom games are my absolute favourite. You type hint and get a long list of questions, some of which might be completely irrilevent, and then the answer are given in multiple lines as well so you can read only as much as you need.

to give an example:

You walk into a room with a stone floor a shelf high above your head and a stool.

there would probably be these questions:

"Is there anything important about the floor?"
"How do i reach the stuff on the shelf?"
and "What's the stool for"

Say you ask the first question, you'd get an answer like this:

"1 of 3: Well it holds the walls up"

You press enter for the next answer and you'd get:

"2 of 3: have you tried searching it?"

press again and you'd get:

"No"

For the shelf question you'd get something like this:

"1 of 5: grow up a bit shorty?"
you click again:

"2 of 5: have you tried climbing the wall?"

"3 of 5: maybe there's something else in the room that could help you"

"4 of 5: have you had a look at the stool?"

"5 of 5: try standing on the stool"

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2007-01-14 12:52:04

Yep. Exactly.

2007-01-14 15:08:40

I'm proud of myself actually. I've beaten Zork I and II without the use of a guide. The maze thing was annoying, as was the mine in Zork I...and there's a part in Zork II that's annoying as well...but I did manage it. Loved the dragon in Zork II.
Zork III, though...let's just say the royal puzzle rhymes with "witch".

Will mess with that IF client at some point once I get sleep.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2007-01-14 20:44:23

BTW Jade, should I put your email in the list? (Just asking, I think I might've forgotten to add you or something).
And I didn't beat Zork on my own back then. I played it before Babel. Even in Babel, I was online and Robjoy was giving me hints. But the hardest problem was putting that piece of pole under the door. i was thinking of disconnecting the computers so that the door would stand open. Hehe

2007-01-14 22:29:00

Yes, by all means. I'd love to help.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2007-01-14 23:32:44

Guideless Zork gaming is impressive! if you look in the topic about the hitchhiker's guide If game I posted a link on where to get all the old Infocom games (or most of them anyway).

I didn't have any trouble with the pole in Babel, though I did have to do a litle thinking. Geting the radiation chamber to work properly was just a pest though, and sinse there wasn't an in game hints system I did end up resorting to a Faq.

I think with puzles though, sinse everyone is unique, what puzles people get stuck on can vary a lot. for example, I completed the game Pytho's mask by Emily Short without resorting to any help whatsoever. A bit later on though when I looked up the game on Rec-arts-int-fiction, I found that loads of people had got stuck on one part of the game which hadn't given me any trouble in the least (in fact, I never even thought it was a puzle).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)