2011-01-07 00:56:53

Might not be a bad decision to make. :-)
By the way, do you know what would be really cool? A sort of a log file where the game would store all my shape attempts during the training, in a certain coordinate notation so that you could later review it and tell me what and where the hell I am doing wrong. LOL
I got the claw right once now and made the arrow about 5 other times. Any other time I try either of them, no luck. and there seems to be no difference in what I am doing to me. Well, guess I'll just have to keep practicing or fiddling around with the mouse speed setting. :-)
Lukas

I won't be using this account any more or participating in the forum activity through other childish means like creating an alternate account. I've asked for the account to be removed but I'm not sure if that's actually technically possible here. Just writing this for people to know that I won't be replying, posting new topics or checking private messages until the account is potentially removed.

2011-01-07 01:01:33

A log isn't a bad idea at all Lukas, I might do just that.  I've already started the process of converting the game from Direct x7 to Direct x8 so I can try to add the pitch idea to the shape trainer.  I think this will take me a little time to finish.

I'm sorry I've got you guys stuck on the shapes, it must be frustrating to be stuck unable to progress up through the game's levels.  I am also writing up more detailed descriptions for the shapes in the read me file.  Here is what I have written for the Arrow and Claw shapes.

- [Arrow]
    To draw arrow you begin with a line heading North, the length of the line isn't important.  Stop moving and make a line heading South-west.  Stop again and make another sharp turn to form a line to the East.  Stop again and finish the shape by drawing a line to the North-west.  Of the 4 lines you drew, the last 3 lines formed a triangle.

- [Claw]
    To draw claw, begin by drawing a line heading North-west.  The next part is shaped like the letter U.  Start mving South, curve to the East, and finish by curving the rest of the way so you are headed North. Stop so that you can change direction for the last piece.  The final piece is identical to the last piece you drew.  To draw the final U shape head South, curve to the East, and finish by curving the rest of the way so you are heaed North.  The completed shape was 1 line and 2 curves.  The 2 curves make the shape resemble the letter w.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-01-07 08:25:07

Yeah, I do in fact know this set of letters. I lack the vocabulary for that but there seem to be two different sets of characters or letters for writing. One of them is mainly used by typewriters and when printing out computer text while the other is more often used when writing by hand. It has been so common to hear about it all the time here in the Czech Republic that i never even checked it out in more detail so I can't unfortunately say anything more precise about it, but the funny part is that these two sets are pretty different in many ways, and I've only ever learned the printed letters. U and v make perfect sense thoug.
Anyway, thanks for the reassuring news! If the pitch sound works and if you even add a logger to the game, thenn that'll just rock and it will already be pretty advanced. I just love how you are open to suggestions and start implementing those that you like quickly. :-)
These descriptions are actually pretty good, I think they should make it a lot clearer to everyone. to me personally, they confirmed that I got the right idea, I am just doing something wrong when actually moving the mouse most of the time. :-) Perhaps I might want to try decreasing its speed even more.
there is certainly no need to feel sorry for making us stuck with the shapes. this is such an unique concept that it was expected to be tough and challenging but it certainly can be done, and it's the biggest part of the fun and appeal of this game. I love that the game, although the very idea is not too complex, really involves lots of learning. Keep it up! :-)
Lukas

I won't be using this account any more or participating in the forum activity through other childish means like creating an alternate account. I've asked for the account to be removed but I'm not sure if that's actually technically possible here. Just writing this for people to know that I won't be replying, posting new topics or checking private messages until the account is potentially removed.

2011-01-07 08:40:21

Aprone,
Don't appoligize; it's about time we had something as challenging as this in the Audio game indistry. lol I think the game is great. Honestly, I haven't gotten past the first shape yet, but I do enjoy playing the game. I just need to fix this problem I'm having with my mouse. When I plug in my mouse, the computer starts acting all strange, and Jaws unregisters itself. Very weird.
Anyways, don't appologize for making something challenging; I hope you make many more challenging games. Keep up the great work!

"I've learned that this life's not just a game, just a line, between the pleasures and the pain." - Aaron Lewis

2011-01-07 10:27:48

those descriptions made sense to me, so the arrow is a triangle with an extra line, and the claw is a three pronged tridant type shape.

though i've always read braille or typed, I have seen capital letters on occasion, in fact I've sometimes used this method in option screens of main streem games where if i can distinguish one letter I can tell what an option is even if I can't read the full word.

Though mostly i admit i got this knolidge from watching cessimy street when i was litle ;d.

We'll have to see whether I actually did get this correctly when i try the game on monday.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-01-07 10:38:11

Dark, it doesn't seem so hard to get the picture in your mind, it's a lot harder to actually draw it with the mouse, as the game correctly phrases it, well enough. I must be extremely clumzy which I didn't think until now or must be having an extremely bad luck. I think I can perfectly imagine what the arrow, claw, strike and retreat should look like and I have succeeded with all of them on numerous occasions and failed on others. surprisingly enough, as they are later level shapes, I seem to have the best luck with the strike and retreat. Smile
I never ever tried out the actual game yet though, only sticking to the training part so far, trying to discover the best method to wield the mouse so that it is more of a successful and accurate movement rather than just random trial and error. this is what it apparently looks like to the game so far. :-D
Has anyone actually played the game and completed at least a level yet?
Lukas

I won't be using this account any more or participating in the forum activity through other childish means like creating an alternate account. I've asked for the account to be removed but I'm not sure if that's actually technically possible here. Just writing this for people to know that I won't be replying, posting new topics or checking private messages until the account is potentially removed.

2011-01-07 10:54:05

I'm sorry I've got you guys stuck on the shapes, it must be frustrating to be stuck unable to progress up through the game's levels.

I think the claw is too difficult for a first level.
Now I'm able to get the arrow 15-20% of the time, but I only get the claw three or four times since I started the game for the first time.

Because the game concept is completely new, I think you should begin with something very very simple, so that the learning curve is less discouraging. A game too easy is of course boring, but a game too hard is abandonned. I see myself: if I don't see any valuable progress as I play, I just give up.

If you already have to exercise a couple of hours before even starting the first level, that's a bad idea. The best games are those where you can learn while playing. I don't say that it would be easy to implement in your case, far from that.

The arrow, dividable into 4 primary moves, is simple enough. But I think that the claw, composed of complicated curves, should not appear before a couple of levels. There are certainly other easier shapes to do in the first place.
What about:
* a forbidden sign: a circle and then a line from north-west to south-east, or even a simple circle,
* a lightning: south-west, then full east, then south-west again (this is probably the easiest we can do),
* a kind of hourglass : south-east, then full west, then north-east, then full east  ?

There are 10 kinds of people : those who know binary, and those who don't.

2011-01-07 11:15:08

I am trying to do these shapes, but for now no loock. I love the idea and the new way in audio games. I hope so this game will be better and better.

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BattleTAG: Lirin#21759

2011-01-07 11:54:39

Well obviously getting the shape in mind and actually executing it with the mouse are two different things, i expect I will have the same trouble if not more sinse manual dexterity really isn't my best attribute ;d.

Actually I think amineel might have a point though. because this is a new concept, starting easier then working up might be a better plan just so as not to discourage people from the hole idea, sinse there are undoubtedly some impatient people out there.

I actually like amineel's notion of starting with some more basic shapes to draw like the lightning balt, circle, ban sign or even just a symple square, then working up to the likes of the claw later on. If not actually in changing the game (wich obviously may be a pain at this point), perhaps as some sort of other option, such as magic lessons performing different, easier spells before working up to the complicated matter in the gold book.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-01-07 15:07:19

Hi Aprone,
Lol...I didn't even see that until I looked at my message. very bozarre...

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-01-07 15:52:54

Great game. Loved Towers of War, and teh same goes for this. I'm having problems with some of the shapes, but again, as pointed out several times above, that's expected considering that thsi is the first audio game of its type.
Keep up the fantastic work, and looking forward to your future projects! smile

2011-01-07 16:12:54

Staindaddict, thanks for the support man and I hope you figure out that mouse problem soon.  Can you tell if any status boxes are popping up on the lower-right corner of your screen when you plug in the mouse?  Usually that is where it will tell you if there is a problem with any hardware you've plugged in to the USB port.

Lukas, I think it is really funny that you have no trouble with "Strike" since that and "Arrow" are the 2 hardest ones for me personally lol!  My wife has tons of trouble with "Claw" but I can get it pretty much every time now.  Keep in mind I've had a lot more practice than any of you guys I'm sure.  I guess it is all on how we naturally move, and you are right that it all comes down to whether or not the Game likes how you drew the shape.  big_smile

Aminiel's post got me thinking of something I should probably mention.  Claw is trickier than Arrow but I went with those 2 because together they cover all of the basic motions you'll need.  Don't get me wrong, if my next attempt at making the game easier doesn't work I'll swap Claw out with an easier shape!  I can have the best intentions for using the shape but that simply won't matter if people can't get it easy enough lol.  As I was saying, Arrow makes you learn individual lines that go either straight vertically or horizontally, or they go straight in the 4 45 degree angles.  When playing, it is incredibly important to be going perfectly straight in the desired direction.  If you are envisioning going "up" but you are actually moving the mouse at an angle up your mouse pad then the computer will judge you based on an angled line.  My personal troubles with "Arrow" lie in the fact that I tend to bend the line that is supposed to go Left.

Once you've got the skills for straight lines, Claw introduces you to curves.  On arrow you most likely paused for a brief moment between lines so you could change direction, but curves allow you to change direction in a single fluent motion.  Just like lines, be very aware of how you start and end your curves!  Make sure you begin Claw's first curve by heading straight down, not at an angle.  Trace the shape of a U and end up heading straight up.  Once a person masters the line and the curve they can be assembled to form any of the game's shapes.

I'm still working to convert the game over to Dx8 so I can try the pitch and tone idea.  In the mean time I came up with another method I am going to try because it is able to be done in Dx7 and I can have it into your hands faster.  As Aminiel said, people will leave a game if it takes too long to get going, and I have worried about losing people from the start.  I didn't like the idea of requiring people to sit and learn 2 shapes before they could even play, but I saw no way around that.  The moment I get this new method coded I'll post it for people to try.

Thanks for all the support guys, it really does help.  big_smile

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-01-07 16:20:37

I have to wait for someone to come over and look at my screen.. Unfortunately, I don't have enough vision to see it. I actually don't have any vision at all. lol

"I've learned that this life's not just a game, just a line, between the pleasures and the pain." - Aaron Lewis

2011-01-07 17:09:44

I'm rather looking forward tot rying this, and it'll likely be getting a database entry fairly soon, ---- though "aprone's Daytona and the book of gold" seems a bit of a mouthfull for a game title ;D.

I understand the logic of having a shape with streight lines and a shape with curves to teach techniques, but maybe the problem is putting them together. perhaps to begin with shapes should just! be lines or curves, such as a left or right hook or oval shape to teach curves, and a basic square or triangle to teach lines (though it sounds like the arrow fills that function quite well).

Interestingly enough, in Brian smart's gestures game it was getting the streight vs diagonal lines which gave me most trouble. in the end I found myself doing a line, then picking up the mouse and moving it back to the center of the table, then doing another.

of course, my pc mouse is also a funky wireless one, though whether or not this will make things easier or hrder we'll just have to see ;d.

It'll be nice to have this to look forward to on monday afternoon, particularly if the train journey back up north to my flat is unpleasant, and even more particularly if north England lives up to it's usual self and is as cold as a businessman's sense of charity ;d.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-01-07 17:53:45 (edited by Aprone 2011-01-07 17:56:31)

I'm about 60% through the new technique I'm implementing.  I am rewriting the portion of the game that recognizes shapes in an effort to make things easier.  In addition to accepting curves it will also accept alternatives constructed from lines.  This will mean that a circle could either be drawn as a smooth circle or it could be drawn as a series 9 short lines (S, SE, E, NE, N, NW, W, SW, S).  It might not seem like this will help, but I think the lines themselves are easier to do than the curving shapes and this might be beneficial.  The other thing I'm doing is making the direction detection a little more advanced.  Like I said earlier, a line going straight up needs to be going straight up to count.  If you curve the line it usually won't count, but I intend to change that a little.  The game allows for a little bit of swaying already, but I'm going to make it even more lax.

Boy I keep remembering more things I'm working on, lol.  I've almost finished code that will allow for even more extreme size differences to be accepted.  Earlier I said that you could draw whatever size and it would still read, but technically if you drew really big or really small the program had a harder time seeing the detail of your movements.  I am fixing that so that no one ever has to worry about mouse speed or drawing size again.  I doubt it is actually an issue with the current method, but I'd rather be 100% certain that isn't messing anyone up.

Finally the last thing I'm working on is a musical map of sorts.  In the trainer you'll hear a short series of musical notes for the shape.  As you mimic the shape it will play the same notes, but a mistake will produce a different sound.  In real time you will hear that you have moved in the wrong direction.  When your movement sounds the same as the musical map, you'll know you've mastered the shape!  big_smile

Jennifer (my wife) and I are headed out to an old light house so I doubt I'll have these things finished today.  If I fall off the lighthouse and die I'll leave... hmm... KeyIsFull in charge of finishing the game for everyone.  Hehe big_smile  I'm just kidding, I'll hang on to the railing.

Edit:  Dark, you wouldn't have to call it "Aprone's Daytona and the Book of Gold", just "Daytona and the Book of Gold" is the actual title.  If you remember we had to put "Aprone's" in front of the Tower game because someone else had already used "Towers of war" as a game.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-01-07 18:48:38

Finally the last thing I'm working on is a musical map of sorts.  In the trainer you'll hear a short series of musical notes for the shape.  As you mimic
the shape it will play the same notes, but a mistake will produce a different sound.  In real time you will hear that you have moved in the wrong direction. 
When your movement sounds the same as the musical map, you'll know you've mastered the shape! 

That's an excellent idea !

You say that a line supposed to go up must really go up. You mean, you mustn't have a X axis difference even of one single pixel ??? If that precision is actually required, you are completely right if you make the recognizer more laxist. Because be really up and only up is not easy, I suppose even more for people who are blind from birth and never used a mouse when they were younger.

There are 10 kinds of people : those who know binary, and those who don't.

2011-01-07 21:36:32

Hey guys,

I just had a question.. When you say curve down to the right, do you actually turn the mouse while you're moving? It's either that, or you just go down in a straight line with the mouse slightly rotated to the right? I'm stuck. lol
Has anyone managed to do the Claw yet? I did do the Arrow, go me! lol It's so easy though, Claw is much harder.

"I've learned that this life's not just a game, just a line, between the pleasures and the pain." - Aaron Lewis

2011-01-07 21:58:42

Wow, Aprone! That's a lot of stuf going on about this game, I love it! The musical map sounds excellent, it should even work much better than merely the pitched sounds could but it won't be bad to have both. Likewise, the tracking becoming a little more tolerant is a good thing! I have to leave now as I am at my grandparents and am only using a phone modem to connect. LOL
Lukas

I won't be using this account any more or participating in the forum activity through other childish means like creating an alternate account. I've asked for the account to be removed but I'm not sure if that's actually technically possible here. Just writing this for people to know that I won't be replying, posting new topics or checking private messages until the account is potentially removed.

2011-01-08 00:21:05

Aminiel, the precision doesn't have to be a extreme as a single pixel, I don't even know if that would be humanly possible lol.  It always allowed for some variation but I am just increasing that amount so help people even more.

staindaddict, you bring up a really good point that I didn't even consider!  I didn't even consider that many blind users have probably never even used a mouse and don't know the basics of how they operate.  Turning the mouse doesn't actually require turning the physical mouse device.  While moving around the mouse will pretty much always be facing the same way with the buttons facing away from you in your hand.  The ball or laser eye that actually does the measuring is located in the center of the underside of the mouse.  Don't look directly into the laser though because it can cause vision loss or even blindness!  Sorry, I couldn't resist repeating the warning I've been told a dozen times lol.  big_smile  Because that is located in the center of the mouse, twisting the physical mouse itself really won't see much of a difference and probably won't even register it as any type of movement.  My advice is to just hold the mouse in whichever way is most comfortable and remember that the physical mouse does not need to turn or twist in order to do the shapes.

Well I survived the 203 steps to the top of the second tallest lighthouse in America.  My legs might be sore in the morning but that won't stop me from coding.  big_smile

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-01-08 00:31:19

Hey Aprone,

Thanks for explaining that. I'll give it another shot. I did fix my mouse problem for now; I just hope it doesn't come back. I'll let you know if I'm successful. Can't wait for the update!

"I've learned that this life's not just a game, just a line, between the pleasures and the pain." - Aaron Lewis

2011-01-08 01:52:19

my issue is that however i move the mouse, it doesn't seem to move the radar, it's like the mouse stays in the bottom right hand corner of my screen,
i know the shapes i'm doing are right, because i asked a sited person, and they said sure, it looks like the discription, but i just can't do it,
not even one success as yet, i'm open to suggestions to why this is happening though!

2011-01-08 02:03:49

Hi.

congrats on making it up and down, rather reminds me of going up durham cathedral tower. Maybe this is the next edition to towers of war, the very evil step tower! you build it on the path, and it takes the monsters a loooong! time to pass it, by which point they are really tired ;d.

As I have a laser mouse, i'll remember to be careful, afterall, if I went blind I couldn't play computer games anymore (you asked for that one).

As regards mouse movement, i actually knew the bit about keeping the buttons at the top, but I stil found it actually quite an odd movement to keep the mouse stil and just move my hand around, in fact quite often I'd slant the mouse. i suppose this is because the basic mouse design has writing with a pen somewhere in it's ancestry, where obviously you keep the pen steady and move your hand, but obviously writing with a pen this way is fairly alien to me, ---- people tell me my signature looks like chinese, though i usually take this as a complement, ---- pluss it is unforgeable ;d.

I do really like the audio map idea though. Rather reminds me of an old geometry program we had at school which used to represent graph lines with a sound, so for instance the x =  y line wuld make a sound from bottom to top rising in pitch, and the X = minus Y would make one going down in pitch while X squared which curvedup and down would make a dip down low then rise up again, ---- appologies if I got my lines mixed up, while I liked algebra, geometry was neve my strong point, i'd always just rather have the equation than the liniar representation, ---- though sinse I haven't studdied any science or logic for quite a while my algebra is probably also rusty ;D.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-01-08 02:07:54 (edited by staindaddict 2011-01-08 02:09:19)

Aprone,

I guess the thing I'm not getting is what's the difference between a down and to the right, and a down with a curve to the right is. I understand what you wrote above just fine, but I'm stuck on what I just said.

"I've learned that this life's not just a game, just a line, between the pleasures and the pain." - Aaron Lewis

2011-01-08 02:18:10 (edited by Aprone 2011-01-08 02:19:33)

staindaddict, when it says "down and to the right" you are making a diagonal line heading south east.  This is assuming that up is north of course.  A "curve down and to the right" means you will begin by actually going straight down then curve your movement as if you are outlining a circle.  After your curve you should be heading to the right.

I'm just finishing up testing on the new additions.  I'm quite positive they will help a lot of people tremendously!  I'm taking a break to go eat some dinner but I will do my best to get the update posted before the day is over.  To give you guys an idea of how much this will help, I ran through each shape and only 1 failed to register on the first attempt.  It was the lousy Arrow that I always have trouble with ROFL!  On my second try it worked though.  For some reason I always try to angle my 3rd line when I draw the arrow and the sound map proved to me that that is what I had done.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-01-08 03:03:18

hi all. i can't wait to go back home and try it with my wireless mouse instead
of this crappy trackpad, also waiting for the new version.
aprone, the curious thing is that i got the arrow right when doing it for the second or third
time when i launched the game for the first time, and claw... i never did it, i've tried now
more than 50 times, the other movements i suspect are going to be really really hard
but the new version will help us with all these improvements. these descriptions that you gave
of these two first shapes was very useful, i'll never give up, this concept
is keeping me interested more and more

contact info
email:
matrheine at gmail . com