2018-11-28 04:14:27

To the developer of this game, I would love to play this game, but the difficulty with all the platforming is just a bit much. I also am not attacking your game. This is just a matter of opinion, but I think sometimes developers can get a bit carried away with designing, and it actually loses players.I think the game has some awesome potential though.

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2018-11-28 04:29:27 (edited by assault_freak 2018-11-28 04:30:44)

Not to be confrontational, but before callin this game's platforming much you should go look at games like MEgaman, Metroid, etc. Games in the 90s in the mainstream world have had more complex platforming than this. It shouldn't've taken this long to catch up in the audiogaming scene, but it did. Is it challenging? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. But is it too much... only for the people who don't realize that this amount of platforming is standard for any noteworthy mainstream game. smile If your only kind of side scroller is one with just running and jumping, this definitely is not the game for you. lol I'm curious as to whether you've actually tried the game and if you beat it or not?

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-11-28 05:47:38 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2018-11-28 05:57:50)

as I said before in other post, beating the game was just bliss for me. I actually felt a great sense of achievement, something no other existing, expensive or free audio game has ever done before.
As for the stealth levels. I liked them a lot. It reminds me of big mainstream titles where you also have to be well, uh, stealth. This is also a first for an audio game, not to mention the cleverness you must employ to successfully and secretly escape. And well, regarding the drop off at 21.1

I will try to give steps, they should be good hints. Always use your camera and sonar.
big
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p
o
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l
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r
1. First thing first. Dash under the first camera and stop at around 25, 0. Wait for the cameras to face right, then, quickly, go to 41, 0, then grapple up. You should be safe now, for a while.
2. There are sort of big stairs, to the left. you should jump and then move to the right. Climb until you reach 77, 19. There will be a gap here at around 80, 19. Do not! drop off here or you will die miserably and repeatedly.
3. Once you jump over that gap, you will have to grapple up but be careful since there is a camera very near. Wait until it is facing right then run up to 90, 19 and grapple up.
Now here is a tricky bit, and I guess this is where you are dying. Its actually very  fun and feels real good to figure this on your own, but I will happily ruin all the excitement and all that for you. So here it goes. Move until you reach 114, 39 then take just one right step and land. You will land on a single brick that has a wall to its right. But then, you should turn to your left , and wait until the camera turns left. . Then drop again by moving just one step. As soon as you land, turn to your right again and run, away from it. And that is it. I will let you figure the rest out for your own.
end big spoiler.

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2018-11-28 06:26:42

Ah, yup, that's where I was getting hung up. Will try this at some point in the near-ish future. Thank you.

Now, someone made a point about MegaMan and Metroid and whatnot. There's one huge, huge, huge difference. Those games let you move while still being able to see what's wround you. The nature of BK3's platforming is that you have to painstakingly scan one tile at a time and then memorize the layout before you move. Which is great and all, but very difficult when you're surrounded by noise or are being pelted by things. In that regard, this game is nothing at all like those mainstream titles, and shouldn't be compared to them. It's relatively forgiving sometimes, and then extremely unforgiving at other times.

My main issue with Carla missions is that she can sometimes and seemingly out of nowhere end up dead, or end up in front of you while you're spraying stuff with bullets. She's very dangerous when she shoots things, and that's great and all, but fighting the extinguisher with her handicapping you is a pain in the neck. I mean okay, remote medkits, great. But still. It's one more hassle to have to deal with, and is one reason I'm going to farm robot minishooters in a later stage instead of 15 or 16 or whatever.

Also, holy useless items, Batman.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-28 06:51:15 (edited by assault_freak 2018-11-28 06:56:39)

You don't have to scan one tile at a time, though. In every stage there's at least one spot that's quiet and lets you get a grip on your terrain. And anything platforming related like climbable objects are also accessible from the object viewer with the d key. Once you get good at scaning all you have to do is hold down the arrow keys in the direction you want to scan.
And as for Karla, she definitely can be a pain... but especially in stages 15 and 16, she isn't hard to keep behind you. Just don't get trigger happy. And keep in mind that you can also use shields to defend Karla as well as yourself from projectiles coming from far away. And when it comes to knowing your terrain, once you have your sonar on, and you can recognize echoing footsteps as you walk to signify dropoffs, then this game does indeed let you move while being aware of what's around you. Although you do have a fair point about mainstream platformers letting you visually keep track of what's changing as you move. But this game certainly does let you do that once you're familiar with it.. and it could probably be said that no audio side scroller could really ever do that exact same thing. By that logic, audio games can never quite be the same as side scrollers with graphics... because there will always be a need to get information in a different way other than visually.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-11-28 09:06:12

I completely disagree with assault freak here, and I agree with Jade. Platforming while being able to see what's around you would make it much easier to do. Combine the platforming with enemies and other sounds coming at you, and it's time consuming and frustrating. There must be an easier way to do this platforming idea, but not being a developer, I don't know what that is. I stick by my earlier post about developers sometimes getting a bit carried away with puzzles, obstacles, and the like.

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2018-11-28 09:55:16

See, I'm inclined to agree with your statement there, but the thing where this game is concerned is where there's platforming, there's generally, key word generally, not a swarm of enemies after you, because of that exact reason that you're supposed to take time to look around and analyze the best way to go.
Sure, stages 17 and 21 could be argued to be points against the claim I just made, but one can also argue that if you got spotted to begin with, you fucked up somewhere. tongue
Although that may also depend on your definition of platforming, some people may consider 11-3's bomb platforms as platforming, as an example but I personally do not, simply because you go up, pop a speed potion if you wish, make sure Carla isn't in the splash zone, literally just run and jump off the edge.
I cannot as of right now, although it is almost midnight so take this with some salt... think of any points in the game where you actually have to platform while watching out for enemy hoards, and other puzzles are generally quiet areas anyway.
I don't mean to come across as confrontational or anything, this is just my opinion.

"I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
guards, skyrim

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2018-11-28 11:28:21

The only thing that comes to mind that could make looking around in BK3 easier is being able to scan a whole column at once. That'd save loads of time.
This discussion reminds me why it's so hard to get this right: I can't tell "it's too hard" apart from "it's too hard for me" from "it's not my style". For a mainstream example, see Super Mario Bros 2 / The Lost Levels.

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2018-11-28 12:09:55

@zuckus
Would you mind telling us which platforming made you feel too much? The term "too much" or "too difficult" is ambiguous, so if you could clarify which part you're exactly talking about, that would drive the discussion more.
One thing is though, are you utilizing camera / compact sonar / object info / your footsteps? If you're not sure how to use one of these, the tutorial part needs updates so that players can naturally get used to the mechanics.
As for seeing platforms, I personally agree with BlindNinja; I was careful enough to avoid swarm battles when quick / tricky platforming is required (at least I evaluate myself so).

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2018-11-28 13:43:17

I think one thing I'd definitely do is make the sonar a default item at the start of the game, instead of it being purchasable in stage 4 or whatever it is. The platforming doesn't get particularly tricky until later, but there's even some stuff in stage 1 where if you don't have the sonar, you might get tripped up a wee bit. I just don't see a reason not to have it as a navigational aid.

My thing is that the game isn't murderously hard as far as platformers go, and you're quite right that most really tricky bits are nice and quiet. I also agree that there's no way to make an audio game act exactly like a platformer for the sighted...it's just not entirely possible. this is why I don't entirely buy the comparison in the first place.

I would argue, for sure, that if you're onlevel 3 or whatever, that you haven't really hit a point where the platforming should be defining the game, and the first egregious example of a dev maybe going a tiny bit too far is, for me at least, the demon in 5-4.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-28 14:19:49

Okay. I really, really, really don't think the platforming is to much or to hard or anything. When I play BK3, I always look forward to levels which aren't just "walk right and kill enemies". I would even say the platforming is a bit under-used in some parts of the game. I don't want to make the impression that I'm trolling or anything, but my favorite levels are the stealth ones. The way in which to carefully look around and work out the solutions how to sneak, it's just genious. And the flight levels aren't really that complicated. I agree that shooting barriers is not the most exciting activity in the game, but those dogfights are so great.

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2018-11-28 14:45:44

I don't think there's anything in the too much direction about the end of 5-4. The fish in 5-3 trips a lot of people up, though.
This is a hard subject to discuss, because it's like teaching someone who's never touched a musical instrument how to play "Through The Fire and Flames" on Cello. That's hyperbolic, but is kinda what it feels like: "how do I explain how this works to someone who doesn't get scales, fingerings, or how a guitar Virtuoso can even make sense on a Cello?" The platforming in BK3 just makes sense to me, no questions asked. The only thing that slowed me down was missing the command for the camera. I have no idea what about stage 3 could possibly be overwhelming, platform-wise. At the same time, things like Agency and life-having seem to come to everyone else without needing explanation, and I keep finding advice to which the response is "HOW THAT IS NOT A PRIMITIVE ACTION!".
So, like, what can one do to bridge that understanding gap?

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2018-11-28 16:14:14

Well, I was caught and gave up in the courtyard area from the staff room in I think the first level or so at the school. I had no idea there was something called sonar camera, whatever that means, that I could use. From what Jade says, that isn't available until later, so now that makes sense. Even so, having to figure out how many squares to climb up and down just makes the game, honestly, boring and too difficult. I hope that helps.

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2018-11-28 16:19:34

Yes, that's the part I don't like. You're dumped into a bit of tricky platforming right in the first level without any sort of aids. Now that I know what I'm doing it's not so bad, but yeah. Still tricky.

So good news!
I've made it to MudKiller. And now he's kicking me around pretty handily. Not sure how to avoid the walls+stone instant death attack, the yo-yo I'm using doesn't seem to break the walls in time, and I can't just jump the walls. Also, my god is that thing ever a tank.
Should I seriously invest in an upgrade to my yo-yo at this point, or switch to a different weapon entirely? And if I should switch, which one? I know people seem to love melee, but I...just don't get it. Super Buster Blade, for instance. Okay fine, it hits hard, and it blocks attacks (which saved my bacon in 22.3, let me tell you. But oh my god is it ever slow! And it hits one thing at a time, correct? How can you justify using a weapon like that against anything?

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-28 16:34:37

Regarding the getting dumped into the part where you look for iron balls.. the layout is complicated, but I think there are way worse things like the cave level. Nowadays people do give up so easily, I remember when older video games were just about 100 levels and if you died right at the 98% of level 100 itself, lost all your lives, then tough luck, start all over, and most players never ever had issues with that kind of mechanic, they did not write to tech support complaining. That being said, the tutorial needs much work. It needs to explain how the camera works, and also to remind you to actually choose the short sword when you are in the very first level, because I died many times when starting out until I had sort of figured that out.
The boss at 5.4 I would agree that it does help if it was a bit easier or the mechanic was different, however this also being said there are many possibilities for killing enemies at this point, (throwing many iron balls upwards for example can kill it quick). SO now, back on topic:

wow, that is some fast progress. You should have speed drinks and good mechanics on this level. Keep in mind the way mud killer attacks:
Debris punch: Longer range, seems to be some vertical as well.
Rock throw: Same as before, hits harder.
Stone drop: Flying attack, surrounds you in rock walls before dropping a huge stone that does massive damage, destroy one side of the walls to get away.
Rock rain: Drops smaller rocks as it passes by, becomes deadly on higher difficulties but has no splash damage.

you could use shields here too.

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2018-11-28 16:48:30

My main issue with Mud Killer is his walls+falling stone thing. Everything else I can work with. He insta-kills me with the falling stone, which is probably intentional. And I have like 2400HP and over 300 defense, so I think I've beein grinding pretty well. I can't seem to break the walls quick enough to get away from the rocks. I suppose I could use speed drinks and play keep-away with him though.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-28 17:01:48

I wasn't meaning to come across as confrontational either, to be clear. I do, however, agree with Jade that having the sonar right from the start would be pretty handy, as well as maybe a more indepth explanation of the camera. I think that would minimize the frustration of trying to keep track of what's around you while also moving around the stage, at least for some people.
@Cae and @ultra_leet-j, your posts prety much echo everything I would want to say in response to most recent posts this morning. People who give up that easily you can tell haven't played many of the games that used to be on the market... and unfortunately, this tendancy is still common in the mainstream market as well. The current generation of gamers prefers to have shiny graphics and much more hand-holding. Even Final Fight, a game from the 80s!! is still miles ahead of anything we have in this comunity right now.
@jade, the super buster blade is good to use against the mud killer because you're only fighting it. You aren't dealing with multiple enemies at a time... remember that you can also use defense items to block his instakill shots. You just have to make sure it's one that's powerful enough to handle multiple shots. I would also advice upgrading your hp to at least 3000. big_smile And look in the crafting workshop for a weapon that could possibly help attack from a further range.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-11-28 17:10:10 (edited by BlindNinja 2018-11-28 17:16:31)

@jayde
My two recommendations for the mud killer... if you wanna do things the slow/literal brute force way, megaton hammer, which can also hit it while it's flying, but that also gets very dangerous if it decides to drop the walls.
The super acrobat pistol's melee mode also works, actually I think it has a higher general DPS than the hammer. But that's if you don't mind getting up close and personal with it, like very... very close.
@40, thanks for the quote. lol
I do agree about the tutorial though, I don't think it even mentions the camera. Or at least, I don't think so?

"I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
guards, skyrim

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2018-11-28 17:25:32

The reason for using melee is the amount of damage it can do in a single hit, combined with the vertical range on some of the later weapons. The yoyo feels like a compromise between melee and ranged, if not as OP as it was in BKII. By the end, I was using mostly one of the plasma/laser machineguns (I forget which, but it doesn't require buying ammo), the megaton hammer or the strongest non-crafted buster sword (I forget which sad ), and occasionally the yoyo or jump shoes, depending on enemy count and layout. Ex, there's a security jet in 25-1 that takes a while to take down with projectiles, but the giant Final Fantasy VII-sized melee weapon can deal with quickly, and all you have to do is evade its attacks, and keep track of what height it's at (I have this bad tendency to jump into the path of missiles when it's flying). The massive difference in shape and damage makes melee useful in one-on-one situations like that.
My choices there were based entirely around not being patient enough to do the crafting necessary for more powerful weapons, lol . It's possible a craftable projectile or yoyo is sufficiently powerful that, other than defensive abilities, melee are effectively redundant, but I haven't checked.

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2018-11-28 18:15:17

I can't seem to figure out when/how those walls show up. I had him down to about 60% health with the normal yo-yo and then suddenly there were walls around me and a big block dropping on top of me. As in, I didn't hear the walls fall, I didn't hear him all that close - I was kiting him on purpose to stay away - and...well, I just don't get it, y'all.

And really? Hp of 3k? I thought I was overlevelled for this part of the game. Guess not. and I was grinding in 18.1 for awhile, too.

Regarding those games with punishing difficulty vs. the games with pretty graphics: I want someplace in the middle. The Burner fight in stage 12 is neat. The extinguisher fight in 16 would be fine if not for Carla. The large insect is sort of cool, though I bet it dies way easier to melee...I plinked it to death, and it took forever, and a lot of health items to keep healing. On normal difficulty - which is what most players are trying the game on first, of course- I'd like to see things maybe do a little less damage, and would like to see less crazy amounts of enemies pour in when cameras see you...so yeah, by all means punish a brute-force approach, but don't make it virtually instant death.
Incidentally, I cheesed the hell out of 21.3 by using the super sniper rifle and blasting the carts, then using super speed drinks to make a mad dash with all the armies of hell after me when I got a camera which spotted me. I actually ended up with a cart at something like 440-49 (which shouldn't be possible) and it was listed as "pursuing", but it was paralyzed and couldn't act. Bug, perhaps, but that level was neat, because at least with the carts, you can potentially survive a mistake. In 21.1 and 21.2, in the wrong place at least, one camera mistake is pretty much death.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-28 18:22:29

You definitely will get pretty much slaughtered for sure if you get spotted in certain points of 21-1. I agree about a middle point, but this just feels like another one of those 90s arcade games that did in fact make you want to pull yur hair out. They did the same thing as well... lol.
The walls, so far as I know, drop around you if you stand in one place for too long, or if the mudkiller somehow manages to fly straight over you while you're standing still. And 3k HP is pretty minimum for this game.. considering that a few difficulty modes in hp and stats hover around a few hundred k in the case of hp and in the low thousands when it comes to stats. Yukio likes his rediculously high numbers... lol.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-11-28 19:01:14

Well, maybe I do give up too easily. I can't help but think comparing videogames with audiogames is kind of like apples to oranges though.

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2018-11-28 20:09:31

At the moment, that may be true. But the real question is, should they be so polarizingly different? I say no. Shadow Line, A Hero's Call and this game all do good jobs of proving in arious ways that the line between the two doesn't have to be as different as apples and oranges. But that's for another topic.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-11-28 20:56:18

I wasn't going to make an announcement on the bk3 section until the audio was completely recorded, but right now I have everything through stage 18 recorded. I'm publishing around 1-3 audio guides per day. You can check out a reorganized version of all the guides BlindNinja wrote and my audio guides at
www.blackscreengaming.com/bk3

I'll still make a generalized announcement when it is fully completed.

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2018-11-28 21:04:05

To be honest I've just played through it and I never upgraded my HP. For me, the extra HP gained by just leveling up was enough to get through it. I had around 350 defence and attack, and 1000 health.

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