Closing that topic was a huge mistake. As others have said, now we're dealing with a snowball effect, which is going to be a thousand times worse than anything that was contained in that one thread. I am literally too upset to post any sort of coherent thought beyond that, but I am in complete agreement with pretty much everyone else here.
What still blows me away is that we're supposed to imagine that a team of intelligent people (deemed thoughtful enough to be appointed as mods to begin with) are making these decisions that we can all see are disasters. I'm still struggling to believe that, and it feels easier to just view Jayde as running his mouth without the other mods agreeing.
I can imagine a single guy slowly sticking a fork into an electrical socket. I have a much harder time imagining that a team of rational people agreed to do it. The super painfully obvious mistakes just keep stacking up too. Can at least 1 other mod please pop in and confirm that Jayde is speaking on behalf of you all? That would at least let us know what we're dealing with.
Please try out my games and programs:
Just gonna jump in and say Aprone's rebuttal to Jade's post was a good post, and Jade's quotes came off as....yes....a personal attack. Which is something Jade's been harsh on. So, Jade, how about giving yourself a warning or a ban for personal attacks, or are the mods seemingly exempt from the rules? From the quotes Aprone picked out, it sure seemed like you were crossing a personal attack line, while Aprone was nothing but civil in his rebuttals and refuting points.
#29 (edited by pauliyobo 2018-11-03 23:25:33)
I won't give definitions yet, but for now the only thing can see in my mind is power hungry. Feel free to interpret it as you wish.
have a nice day.
#30 (edited by Ethin 2018-11-03 23:43:16)
Hey, I voiced my disapproval about Jade being a moderator and how I thought it was too hasty, my point then is being proven now and we're seeing just how unfit Jade is for moderation status. And he's only been a mod for less than a week -- shows how poor of an admin he'd be if he behaves like this as a mod! Ie's made and a mod and the first thing he does is attempt to silence protesters through threats and force. Yeah, great show of trustworthiness! I respect you guys -- most of you, anyway -- for the dedication that you show in helping this site grow, but failing to moderate Jades behavior is only going to make you look worse than you already look. First you have two mods step down, then almost immediately you hire another mod who's even worse than Dark was in the Lauri incident -- now that's sad!
As an answer to the topic, uhh, hell nah!
OK sorry. But I think that answer goes for the majority here.
I see your still requesting that we head over to your PM's for discussion. As I'm sure you could imagine, it's pretty hard to see that working well in this situation. Not only would their be a flood of the same rush of contempt, but seeing as the scales are far from balanced and the vast majority of us disagree with methods, I wish you luck. If your losing ground here, try replying to everyone individually, tailoring your response precisely. We're talking one post here times 20, and that's just for starters. Seems like a lot to put yourself through unnecessarily.
I must say, I do admire the fact that your continuing to respond here, even though odds are against you. But as Aprone stated, it would be nice if we could see those odds evened slightly since I'm personally against mass targeting a person unless absolutely required. If we could get a more even distribution, even by a couple, this could go over a lot better.
@31, if Jade would reopen the BSG blog topic, or if anyone would, it might take some of the heat off of him. But clearly, he doesn't want to do that, and instead wants to show that he really doesn't care about what we have to say. He says they're working on it... actions speak much louder than words do, and the mods actions right now are screaming "Silence! Silence or be banned!"
No, Ethin. The mods' actions are screaming, "Give us a little time to catch our breath". If you are not willing to let us do that, then what are we to do?
There comes a point when saying the same thing over and over again, when it clearly isn't achieving the same results, becomes more harm than good. The issue here is that you folks don't believe this, or believe we haven't reached that point yet, while we generally disagree.
That said, I understand why this is so difficult and so upsetting. Believe me, I do. If you think I'm okay with being silenced, myself, you have another thing coming. When this was first proposed the other day in our mailing list, my first response was an immediate flinch. I have since come to understand that it would probably be necessary.
I have also, thanks to you good people, come to realize something else. If you all decide the sky is red, then the sky must be red. If you all decide that your rights being supposedly violated matters more than the damage all this negative attention is doing to the community, then our motives for deciding a pause was in order don't matter a damn. You think we're trying to silence you in some larger plan to try and make sure that the truth is never found out. This could not be further from accurate, but evidently most of you are not prepared to believe this, and asking you to have faith appears not to hold any appeal either. You seem to be afraid that this silence will continue in perpetuity. It won't. You seem to believe that we want to ignore the harm a person does if their reputation is good enough. This, too, is incorrect. We merely do not accept at face value any single person's view on things, and are processing what our best course of action is, as a community.
So let's try some constructive ansillary discussion.
Now that we are in this position, what do you think we should do? Please provide reasons and explanations.
You seem to be afraid that this silence will continue in perpetuity. It won't. You seem to believe that we want to ignore the harm a person does if their reputation is good enough. This, too, is incorrect.
OK, so what results can users reasonably expect to see from the moderation team?
See, we've already told you that, at different times and in multiple different threads, but I'll summarize real quick:
1. An official stance regarding Walter/Lori
2. An official stance regarding culpability (team and individuals)
3. More specific plans on how we are going to be better as a team, including discussion of transparency, internal verification protocols and rule tweaks
This does mean we're hearing you, and we're listening, and we're not just categorically ignoring the stuff we don't want to process.
It does not mean that every single one of you is going to get exactly what you want.
And something else it means? Past a certain point, you can't get blood out of a stone. If you really aren't happy with a team-wide final verdict, there is little left we can do. Continuing to howl will not make us continue to cave. This, too, is a precedent we wish to avoid. A forum with mods who are too heavy-handed is stifling. A forum where the mods can't take action at all unless the entire user base agrees is going to self-destruct. There has to be some effort at balancing those two extremes, finding middle ground. Our attempt to silence the echo chamber was a first and admittedly flawed step in the achievement of that balance.
Our attempt to silence the echo chamber was a first and admittedly flawed step in the achievement of that balance.
There are 2 mod warnings that were just recently handed out, and you said you want to privately see and approve of Rocky's post before he can post it. I guess we still need to look forward to the steps no longer being flawed... because it hasn't happened yet.
Please try out my games and programs:
#37 (edited by Ethin 2018-11-04 01:25:56)
Jade, I've seen the first moderation warning you've given out... I believe it is you who needs to cool off. Your recent behavior (I'll throw the words "cumulative behavior" right back at you) clearly indicates you are not fit for moderation duty. How can you not see that?
Also, you write:
I have also, thanks to you good people, come to realize something else. If you all decide the sky is red, then the sky must be red. If you all decide that your rights being supposedly violated matters more than the damage all this negative attention is doing to the community, then our motives for deciding a pause was in order don't matter a damn. You think we're trying to silence you in some larger plan to try and make sure that the truth is never found out. This could not be further from accurate, but evidently most of you are not prepared to believe this, and asking you to have faith appears not to hold any appeal either.
Someone intelligently explain to me how anyone could reach this conclusion through logical determination, process of elimination, and rational thought? I really want to know. Also, stop with the echo chamber bullshit. I'll remind you that an echo chamber is a metaphorical description of a situation in which beliefs are amplified or reinforced by communication and repetition inside a closed system. This is not an echo chamber. We are raising valid points and criticizing you, and you are ignoring us and trying to put things back to how they used to be. The issue is that you can't do that, unless you want to ban 30000-40000 people. This has become a revolution, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you can do to stop it. If you warn someone, ban someone, you will only make this revolution speed up, and you will be swept away by it.
I didn't initially want to reply to all this. Heck, when it was just the BSG topic, I didn't have anything else to really say. I was even thinking of working on other topics so that the BSG one could at least cool a bit. I of course wouldn't want anyone to forget it happened, but other members already had that covered. As for Jayde, I really wanted to believe that he was more than capable of actually acting as a proper moderator should. Heck, it even seemed that Jayde was genuinely interested in reforming things. Heck, I think to an extent, my feelings weren't too betrayed, but the actions of Jayde so far have not helped my trust. I hope Jayde isn't telling us the truth about the entire mod staff endorsing these mistakes. Aprone proved that some mods could indeed be reasonable and try to curb mistakes before they happen, but now I'm not so sure. I don't want to believe that Jayde is telling the truth here. Surely at least one Mod has to be familiar with the Streisand effect enough to understand that the result of closing that topic would have only had the consequence of spreading this whole matter further. It's even more concerning that Jayde thought it a good idea to try and go after the entire community.
In fact, consider this an unofficial caution, of sorts, not just to Aprone but to all forum members.
How was that a reasonable action? If you have to start warning the entire community, then we have a serious failure on our hands that speaks worse of the Moderation Team then the community. Let me make this perfectly clear again, I have nothing against Jayde. Jayde has even shown himself to be capable of trying to compromise, but he has also shown that he lets things get to him far to easily. I get it. I understand that things have gotten tough. That being said, I am becoming worried about the state of the moderation team more so than I thought I would have to worry about the moderation team. Why does this have to be this way. In the end, it seems to be that all we've all done is draw a line in the sand between mods and members. This isn't healthy at all. Heck, I think Jayde and I agree here. (Correct me if I'm wrong there.) I think the problem comes that Jayde (and presumably the entire mod staff) have taken actions that have only resulted in furthering the divide. The only issue I have here is that I don't think I can blame the entire mod team completely yet. For now, Jayde has only said that the entire mod team is behind this action, but we have no proof of those claims. In much the same way that we have no proof of Aprone's claims. Even though, Aprone couldn't technically prove his claims without releasing logs from the mod list, and why do I get the feeling if Aprone did that he would have only then been condemned for releasing private logs? He couldn't possibly win that one. In the end, it would have been easier for him to keep quiet. That being said, it really didn't help matters the way Jayde decided to handle that. That being said, I do understand that the blog topic should have been just allowed to cool down a while while we waited for the mods to sort things out. Really, I do. That being said, both sides seemed quite content to keep poking the bear as it were. Now, to answer the question proposed. It pains me to respond this way, it really does. I think Jayde has potential. I think he really does. The only thing that's keeping me from fully just signing off that he should be a moderator is that he has failed to live up to that higher standard that we should expect from Moderators. He should have just left that topic to die down on its own. He should have just let people finish getting adjusted to what the future was going to be. Instead, we are now here discussing what should have been done. In the end we're just left with should've, would've could've, didn't. I get it. The members were taking quite a bit of time to adjust and stop talking about the matter, but in the end, if the Moderators expect the community to be patient with them, and trust them, two things have to happen. First, the community should be afforded the same respect. Second, the mods should give plenty of reason to trust them. People aren't calling for so much more transparency because they want to just pry into others lives necessarily. They are calling for transparency so they can see what is going into decisions that may effect them. That being said, I understand the reluctant nature of the mods here. There are things that if shared, may not be in anyone's best interest. That being said, this is not the way to handle this. I do hope we can get back to the mods ruling in a way that actually takes into account everyone involved, and that the members go back to affording the mod team trust and respect. I hope we can heal these wounds, but that won't be happening any time soon. Right now, the members and mods seem to be scared of one another. Both are simply lashing out out of fear. The mark of a good moderator is someone who at least tries to examine everyone's opinion and give a valiant effort to hear everyone out, whether public or private. I understand that private allows both parties to discuss their grievances uninfluenced by third parties, and prevents derailment of public matters, but with such an important matter as this, it is vital that the members discuss, and bring their grievances in a public setting. This is too important to leave behind closed doors.
I'm sorry for the wall of text, and hope my ramblings were understandable to everyone. Again, I know jayde is trying here. I just wish he didn't take the actions he did. It is those actions that seem to be causing so many problems. It is better to contain stuff like this, not destroy it. Closing that topic left the heat with no where to go, so it exploded all over the place. Right. I should stop before this rant exceeds a character limit or something. Anyways, if you've made it this far, I wish the best for everyone. This is only my thoughts on Jayde's track record so far. I hope that jayde proves everything I said in this post wrong. I don't like this state of affairs. Please Jayde, I want you to succeed in proving to me that everything I wrote above is only a terrible misunderstanding of everything. I don't want to fear the mod team. I don't want to have to take my contributions elsewhere because the moderation team has made this wonderful community a toxic and frightening place to be. I guess that's dramatic. It's only the internet after all, but I kind of like this place. Everyone here has grown on me. I would hate to have to leave everyone here because I feared what the mods thought of me.
@38, holy hell man, a hundred thumbs up for you.
self contradiction, anyone?
so in post 18, Jayde writes. (quoted message at the bottom of my post...). well, currently, my NVDA tells me the following.
Post new reply — Should Jade be a moderator? — Site and forum feedback — AudioGames.net Forum
1) why is this topic not closed yet? doesn't this do the same purpose which the BSG blog topic did, which, in your beliefs, is wrong? 2) why are you replying to such topics? again, apparently they do the damage, and they surve absolutely no purpose, yet you're affectively adding fuel to the topic.
3) if you close down the 2 topics, and we create another, will you ask one of your other mods, (you've said earlier that you weren't overly comfortable with the mod panel just yet) to restrict a few of us from being able to create topics? are you going to ban us all? are you going to prevent things every way possible? do you really want all the visitors to see 3 or more topics closed, with the same intention? as ethin has said himself, we, as the community, will not stand for this. if you mean business, we mean business too. if you think you're so much superior than us, never mind what the community wants, then I can reassure you, the community also means business. we will take things to twitter, we will take it to faceBook, we will do what it takes. a good admin is an admin that shows an example, and surves the community. a good admin should not! close down topics, and or demand things, without the approval of the community.
As someone else has said, you want things in PM. but why PM? let's talk in the public topics, let's be honest, and let's share what we have to, and let the community speak. a forum is community driven, just like mailing lists. I'm not sure, well, I mean, I do know why, but I'm not sure why this should remind me of a secondary school, where you have to do as the teacher told you to do so. it does not look good.
Also, ethin nailed it with this post, and I want to quote it as it is relevant to my post.
@18, the problem is that if we are doing harm by speaking out against what you are doing, your only causing more harm than we are by playing these little power games. You most certainly aren't helping anyone or anything by closing down topics, by attempting to remove our right to free speech, by attempting to privatize all discussions and suggestions that we give you, and then by failing to justify your actions. You are abusing your authority -- and I say that to all the moderators here. The ban button is not something you use lightly. I don't give a rats ass how long it is or whether its permanent or not, you do not ban someone for speaking against you. You do not ban someone for saying something that you don't like. I'm telling you right now and throwing down the gauntlet when I say in this post that this forum will not stand for your dictatorial behavior.
and also, 23 wrote: How can we trust you, if you want at all costs informations to be said to you and only you privately?
how, and I repeat, how, and why, should things go privately? you have something to hide or something?
Zak, thank you for recognizing where we're trying to come from.
The issue is that we as a team felt that more harm was being done to let that discussion continue than would be to shut it down. Unfortunately, you forum-goers have decided to call our bluff and have your say anyway. I wish you would realize the harm you are doing. I wish you would trust that yes, we are actively looking into making changes, updating things and ensuring that this never happens again. When people are engaged in a more-or-less constant echo chamber of negative opinion, recrimination and unjust judgments, it is toxic, and we are trying to stop that. We have tried to appeal to your sense of community spirit, and when that didn't work, we have attempted to demonstrate a very small show of force to display that we do, in fact, mean business. The characterizations in both of these new topics about what will happen if you speak out are patently ignoring the text I have taken pains to craft. Put simply: we want you to stop talking about this, and give the community a moment to catch its collective breath. You aren't going to do any good talking this to death. No one deserves any more mud thrown. Saying the same things over and over and having your interloculars say "Yeah I agree" isn't doing any good. You are essentially talking just to hear yourselves talk, and it's creating toxic after-effects for those who do not share your worldview. We thoroughly respect your right to hold that worldview in these matters, but are trying to get you to realize that we need some time and space to figure out what we're doing here. Every post denouncing Dark, smearing the mods, wailing on Lori, calling out bull on the processes, is not only unhelpful, it's taking up resources that would better be spent elsewhere.
Here, I'll put it to you a different way. I -am new to this, but I am not acting alone. I -am new to this, but I do truly care what all of you are saying. I am new to this, but I do not want to establish bad precedents. I have said before and will say again: power abuse is not going to be the order of the day going forward. If I am misstepping, it is because I have stepped into boiling water and am trying to swim in it. I truly do believe that limiting conversation was the best course, and I truly do feel that just letting it continue was doing a lot of harm. I wish you folks could realize that. you're going to get resolution if you're patient; you're not going to get it any faster by thrashing this out further. That's what I keep trying to tell you.
If the mod team wants to fire me, that's one thing, but I will not be resigning any time soon. If damage has been done here, I will work hard with you as a community to try and repair it. This means pursuing facts. this means listening to the will of the people. This also means standing up for what is right, not only for individuals, but for the community as a whole. Sometimes that is going to mean that I do something or say something you don't agree with. Disagree with me constructively if you wish; I'd like to note that not a single person has messaged me since the closure of the BSG thread, but many are instead going directly against what I asked of you. We cannot simply edit the rules page on the fly, or we'd probably have done so. In case you are not aware, the owners of this forum are often quite difficult to get hold of, and busy besides. This means that some of the changes you want to see, and which we want to bring you, simply can't happen right now. I beg your patience in these trying times.
This is reasonable enough. I can see how both mod attitudes and player attitudes have contributed to this current state of affairs. I am not blaming it entirely on any one person or group of people, and I'm simply not willing to say that it's all our fault either. There is definitely fault on both sides.
Amine's warning is perfectly justified. Exodus too, given his other statements and the previous directive.
I'm going to turn this discussion on its ear here.
So, the BSG post appeared to be calming down. Not much was going on.
Then Aprone walked in, disclosed a bunch of stuff that really didn't definitively prove anything, and it all flared up again. Recrimination flew, Aprone got patted on the back, and old wounds got ripped open again. I suppose we could've just let it ride and it might've faded away on its own...but at what cost? Whose reputations might have been unfairly damaged in the meantime? This forum has already been proving that it can bandwagon the almighty heck out of a user if someone says the wrong thing at the wrong time. We smelled blood in the water again, and we reacted.
So here's my question to you.
To those who so vehemently disagree with what us mods are doing, exactly what do you want? I'm referring to the stuff that we haven't already told you is coming down the pipe. What else do you want, and exactly how far do you plan on going in order to get it?
Your warning to me is as sound as a chocolate kettle. I broke no rules by telling someone where they should put their post, and the forum rules state that I'm allowed to disagree with you anyway as long as it's done in a civil matter. I think you'll find that the post you're pulling from for the warning contains not a single word of uncivil text.
All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools.
@Jayde, OMFG there you go again attempting to justify your actions. And I've told you countless (yes, countless!) times that you cannot justify them. No matter how hard you try, your actions are unjustifiable and indefensible. As for what we want, I think we've clearly established what we want. I shall not repeat our desires again, since you won't listen anyway.
Hello, Jade and everyone else. My name is Garrett, and I'm gonna just agree with ethin and the others on this forum. Jade, there is a fine line between OK moderation and over the line moderation. You have crossed that line, at least a mile over. Wanna close topics? Go ahead, people will just open new ones. Wanna ban people? That’s fine, ban one person and 10 more come back and exercise there freedom of speech. Any attempt to control this will result in everyone saying screw you, you've made too many mistakes. Step back, read these posts again, and put yourself in one of our shoes. You'll see whats wrong with this real quick. Anyway, end of ranting.
OK, here is the thing jade. You say you need time to catch your breath. You mention that we are, howling. Am I allowed to consider that offensive if you consider people suggesting where to post topics offensive? We're, howling? howling. Is that really what you get out of our posts? that we're, howling? Don't think I took that in the wrong way, I know you don't mean it literally. But what that applies is just... Maybe it's just me, but it's babies and whiners that, howl. We're not whining. we are trying to get you to understand what we mean and what you want. Maybe I'm the only one who has this view, but blah. I really don't like that. The thing is though, you can't stop these protests. Being silent or thinking or whatever yall mods are doing, if this many people are against it, it must not be the right thing to do.
A couple of things:
1. To howl, as I have used this word literally dozens of times, means to be loud, to shout, to protest. It is not crying, or whining, but howling. I do apologize if you took offense to this term, however, as that was not my intent. an alternate explanation for my terminology in this instance is the expression "howling for blood". I believe plenty of that has been going on, and still is.
2. What this example has proven is that, ultimately, mods have no power at all. If you guys don't like what we do, even if it makes perfect sense, you can and will rise up against it. Is that the message you have intended to send? Because that does not help negotiations at all.
3. You say that if this many people protest, it can't be wrong. While I understand what you're getting at, I'd like to cite the fact that people once thought the earth was flat...the majority, in fact. And they were wrong, weren't they? Might does not make right. This goes both for the user base as a whole, and for the moderation team. We as mods are not correct simply because we have the ability to silence you if we see fit. You as non-mods are not correct simply because you're incensed and loud. I have, however, admitted that this step in attempting to manage fallout was flawed. I do not necessarily think that just sitting quietly and letting people do what they were doing was right, either, and that's why I feel it was right to do something...but clearly this didn't work. I recognize that.
#47 (edited by Ethin 2018-11-04 02:17:53)
@45, fully 100-percent agree with you. We are not howling, but are deliberately expressing the fact (yes, its a fact if you'd care to look) that you are doing wrong. Whether we have all the information you have or not is insignificant and irrelevant. Whether we have access to the sites moderation/administrative control panels is insignificant and irrelevant. You say you want this community to be peaceful, or at least you aim to do that. The thing is, if you want to make a community, and hold that community together, you must allow the community to govern itself. If that means forcefully evicting moderators by members, than that will be how it is. If that means a large subset of members wish to evict the entire moderation and administration team? Then so be it, the moderator/administrator team must comply. Otherwise the largest user base will leave, and you will have nothing. In other words, this forum is like a Direct democracy; that is, a state of governance where the people represent themselves and vote directly for new laws and public policy. This is not a representative democracy, wherein the people or citizens of a country elect representatives to create and implement public policy in place of active participation by the people. You are a moderator solely at the choice of the people of this community, and those very same people have the choice to remove you, whether by force or by your own willing resignation. And, OK, we don't have access to the control panel, but that doesn't mean we can't get rid of a moderator if we so choose that that will be our goal. It has happened before, and will happen again if your not careful. Banning people and handing out warnings will only reinforce that desire. And you also wrote:
3. You say that if this many people protest, it can't be wrong. While I understand what you're getting at, I'd like to cite the fact that people once thought the earth was flat...the majority, in fact. And they were wrong, weren't they? Might does not make right.
You keep looking at this from the wrong point of view. Please consider the possible that you may be wrong, instead.
The main thing we want? A complete reshuffle of the moderation team, because it has been very evidently proven that the majority of the moderation team is either incompetent, too timid to stand up to the lightest push either from the community or from other moderators, , generally not around doing moderation related things or have an I know best superiority complex so insanely prevalent in every word they write that it makes them sound like an ass telling you about the weather. I’ll let you figure out who falls under each category (notice I did not say all). Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.
What is a shame is that there really don’t seem to be many people who I could honestly say would make decent mods floating around, but at this point a boiled potato would likely do a better job than certain people who shall remain nameless.
Oh, and Aprone has moderated swamp for years. To my knowledge, there has never been a long lasting argument about anything he has done while moderating swamp. Therefore, he comes off as a competent moderator. I am much more inclined to take his word, as well as his opinion of good moderation practice, over someone who’s been doing the job for what, 36 hours now?
so you're asking us, what we want, what we're expecting. Dark has been replaced by you, and we have lost 2 admins already. Adding dark, a total of 3. you come out of the nowhere, I'm not too sure if you're trying to prove your abilities, whether you're trying to rescue what's lost already, but, I dunno. you seem to come out, speak on behalf of the admin team, not mentioning the minus 2, obviously them 2 not being on your side. we have asked in the past, and we will do so again, can another admin please come out here and confirm things?
this is now a drama field. there is nothing left here besides ashes, and rabble. it's all about flame war, and battle. we just want a calm, family friendly, community driven forum, where the mods and admins can be trusted, they act when needed, and allow freedom of speech. as for reputations of people. hasn't that long since been screwed over when the original topic of walter has seen sunlight back in 2016? not to mention all the stolen code of games? I'm sorry, but it really is not the right time to think about reputations, if anything, I feel as if it's way too late.
if that whole walter episode was dealt with propperly or not dealt with at all by this forum then i would think none of this would have even happened.