2018-10-30 07:03:21 (edited by musicalman 2018-10-30 07:07:34)

ivan_soto wrote:

At post 20, tough luck bro. You wanna be a developer? Oh, don't complain about keeping up with your work and your customers. Hell, if you don't like  it so much, don't update that forum with your new games. Sorry, but that is the stupidest reason I ever heard. It sounds like a lazy developer who clearly isn't a people person and feels as though everyone needs to follow all of your demands. Oh shit, I just bashed the great and powerful Liam! I bet I'm gonna get the heat from everyone now. Lol.

Ehh, Liam never said he didn't like the new forum, he said he didn't like the idea of having to post to multiple places especially before we've fixed the issues that plague this one. A lazy developer who expects people to follow all of his demands? Where was Liam demanding anything or acting like he expected us to follow those demands for whatever reason? If you can't say something that is helpful or constructive, you should leave it alone. If this was your way of trying to stir up some sort of reaction, , then I hope mine entertained you.

As to the idea of another forum, While I will probably join your forum and have a look 'round and add it to the list of sites I check for interesting things, I see nothing that makes it more or less attractive to me. The most we have is this:

sound_scriber wrote:

providing the community a new outlet with straightforward policies and guidelines where transparency will be the main concern...

What really raises flags for me is the timing. You picked a very delicate time to make this forum known, and what is more you are citing difficulties that plague this very forum while in no way specifying how you will avoid these on your own forum. The transparency and clear policy issues you describe are being intensely deliberated by the moderators here, and yet a consensus seems long in coming. You may choose to disagree with how they're doing things and run your forum  your own way of course. I'm really interested to see how you'll handle it differently. But if you are indeed only seeking to create a new outlet, then best leave this forum's problems out of it. as of right now, I have to question your motives and the ways you intend to make your forums an attractive alternative.

Your questions in post 1 are vague to me also. I at first viewed your questions as a moderator applicant survey, but I do see that it could be taken in a bunch of ways so I really don't know what you're looking for.

I am not trying to discourage you at all, I'll be glad to check out your new forum when it is up. I personally don't mind having multiple forums for a similar purpose. But at present I really don't know what to expect on yours. I half expect a lot of people here to migrate to your new forum and establish much the same dynamic as here, but that's only my initial assumption and I hope to be proven wrong. Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck in creating a place that fulfills your vision, and that it will stay alive and well for a very long time!

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
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2018-10-30 07:12:26

22: I reject your reality and substitute my own.

2018-10-30 07:22:36

23: The major issue is that when you are a single developer you essentially have to find every site and get something to it. In the mainstream gaming world you have a press department plus you have major news sites that cover your products.
I mean ultimately people are going to do what people are going to do. I will say that I do agree with a lot of posts saying the timing and wording is very suspect. It is what it is though.

2018-10-30 07:37:54

well, here are my thoughts:
I think this has been happening recently. we now have the jerkatron forum as you all know. do we really *need* 30000000 forums? the answer: no. we need one forum where everyone communicates. we don't want our community spread out like butter on toast. we are a small enough group already, have quite enough places to talk on. and also about the timing and that, could someone explain? I'm quite a new user of the forum and am not sure what's going on. anyway, that's what I think. also, a few posts back someone asked to be a mod. well meh to that because it isn't even out yet. I mean heck I'm a mod of the jerkatron forum, but did I go around begging it's administrator to see if I could moderate before it was even released?

blindness is an ability. not a disability.

2018-10-30 08:12:50

no, because i think it's administrator begged you to be a mod on his forum

you can't run from the darkness. we are everywhere.

2018-10-30 08:14:31

I agree with the great and powerful Liam lol... but on a Sirius note I to don’t want to be running around from forum to forum keeping up on what’s going on.  Especially with such a small amount of developers.  Still wish you luck on what you doing, just do it well.

Life is like a  MUD,   grinding is the only way  to succeed.
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2018-10-30 09:08:27

I'm failing to see as to why this negativity. you guys do realise this can be rather discouraging, right? if this is his first project, support it, anyone? if it's going to worth something, it's going to survive. if not, then we won't have to worry about it. sure, I'm not really interested at this point. sure, the timing is rather obvious, but even so, you never know what that forum could turn into, if anything, and or what he will create in the future. this is a really good example of how the community is fractured.

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2018-10-30 11:44:10 (edited by defender 2018-10-30 11:46:20)

the guy seems well put together based on his mod requirements alone and post 19 just confirms it
I am suspicious based on the timing as well, though anyone can see the discontentment so it's hard to really blame the guy for trying to make a difference in his own way,  but I mean, at least come up with better reasons will you? so you have to post to another site, so what, Indi mainstream devs don't have a press staff, maybe one or two people if their big enough, and they tend to post on 5 or 6 sites every time a reasonably large update comes out, or they involve the community in other ways like with suggestion threads or by answering trending questions.
Stagnation and isolation are two of the biggest problems facing this community IMO, so saying you don't want it fragmented just for the sake of saying it seems pretty counter intuitive, since I believe the wider the net we cast and the more vibrant are community can be the better.
Yeah, I agree, it can be an added stresser to follow multiple forms of media, facebook, twitter, and a couple forums if you even decide to use all of those things, but it's just part of the release for most devs, and if your going it solo than that's your choice. why should we be different exactly?
That said, if the forum in question doesn't end up bringing something else to the table, like a different theme E.G. more reviews, mainstream game content like menu guides, and playthroughs, but no database or off topic room for instance, than I'd be less inclined to visit, since it's not really doing anything that ag.net isn't already.
But, I see no real point in not at least giving it a chance to grow up a bit, since the community will end up shaping it to a degree as always anyway, and coming down so hard makes us look pretty toxic.
Besides, this way if something happens to ag.net all the sudden (what ever it may be) than we'll have something other than mailing lists to fall back on.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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2018-10-30 13:18:23

@29, i did not! beg! for admin, I understood post 1 to be asking for potential mods, so I said, hmm, let's try this out and see if it works.
@ivan, i think your just trying to bring negativity into play where it's not needed. Liam does give a fair point, but it's not like we have 50 different forums, only two, or three if you count charlie's, witch I don't cause it looks almost exactly  the same.
I think we should  give this guy a chanse, and we'll see where it goes!

yo! so I'm working on programing, it's really hard. But I'll tell you where you can contact me if your stupid enough to do so.
Contact information:email: [email protected]
Skype: Brennan Draves
I'm usually found on online games, chatting, and being warned bye admins for talking to much, f**k you admin!

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2018-10-30 15:08:57

I believe having two forums is a great idea. As stated before, this is just like having multiple social networks. I don't believe that anyone who makes another forum is power hungry just for making another forum as some people have implied on this topic, it's someone trying to make a community of their own to see if they'd be able to do it and maybe even do it better. Plus, in light of recent events some well-standing community members and developers have left the scene and stated that they will not be making a return, so we need to give them something other than this forum to fall back on.
@ivan_soto Why do you have to stomp all over a project, regardless of who makes it. Do you hate people that much?

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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2018-10-30 15:15:33

I look forward to see the new site, but I won't check it often, because I feel I have enough forums already. It wouldn't hurt to give yet an other forum a try, if that's what people want.

Best regards SLJ.
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Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Happy gaming... :D

2018-10-30 17:31:23

I agree here, we should really be focusing on the one forum instead of fragmenting the community.

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2018-10-30 17:37:02 (edited by musicalman 2018-10-30 21:54:55)

braille0109 wrote:

I'm failing to see as to why this negativity. you guys do realise this can be rather discouraging, right? if this is his first project, support it, anyone? if it's going to worth something, it's going to survive. if not, then we won't have to worry about it. sure, I'm not really interested at this point. sure, the timing is rather obvious, but even so, you never know what that forum could turn into, if anything, and or what he will create in the future.

That's a great attitude, and I respect it. And I will agree with you to a point that some of the community have a poor attitude overall. But I think in this situation a poor attitude can be justified. And an overly positive one can be justified too.

I don't think we need to debate the fact that the situations here as of late have spread everyone thin. It is undeniable. It has resulted in a ban being reversed, the head admin resigning due to the stress of running this place, and consideration of a complete reform of the rules system including a checks and balances system for moderators that is as fullproof as possible. Many ideas have been thrown out but none seem to be sufficient. Citing these challenges in this discussion without anecdotes or additional information just raises suspicion at least for me. You may not feel it should, because everything deserves to start from a clean slate. That's great if you feel that way, and I agree with that to an extent, that is why I am interested to see where this new forum goes. Actions speak louder than words after all, but words still make an impression. I am simply articulating my honest initial impressions here. I am not trying to be negative, I am not saying that the forum is not worth making or that the guy is doing anything bad or anything like that. On the contrary, I want to say this is a good idea with the best of intentions! I am only being cautious.

As you said, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. No big deal. Nothing big to lose, right? Probably so. But even with that being the case, I still like to see anything succeed and that is why I am being so cautious, because I am not yet convinced that it will.

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
If you like what you're reading, please give a thumbs-up.

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2018-10-30 20:56:53

I definitely don't think this guy is power hungry. I just think that pushing this now is a very dangerous time to do it (dangerous mainly because of the huge upheaval this forum has gone through). I'll visit it when it happens and comes online, but I don't know how often I'll actually take time to look through it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-10-30 21:28:52

My main issues here are suspect timing and the now-removed bit about what motivated this. I smell blood in the water, so to speak.

that said, I respect the right of another person to run another audiogames forum, and I don't feel threatened by this.

I'd like to sorta knock that social-media argument into a cocked hat though.
See, facebook, twitter, Instagram...each of them provides very, very different functions, and provides media in different ways. You can sorta cross-pollinate, but those three platforms are quite different. Each one will fulfill the requirements of a different niche; many users use multiple platforms, of course, but they use them for specific things. Another forum, however, won't do this. Forums are, by and large, similar entities. You go there, you read, you reply, and sometimes you vote. That's the nature of the average forum.

I have yet to see how your forum is going to cater to a different requirement of the community which is either not being met at all or is being met poorly. You want to be transparent; so do we. Your list of requirements for moderators is basically the same as the list of requirements here. You want to discuss audio games; so do we. You want to be generally laid-back and not stomp on people with both feet for stepping a little out of line; ditto. Our community is not large, and given that I have not yet seen any pressing need for a second forum, I wonder. I wonder even more based on your timing and your original wording. One of the things I often like to do when engaging in discussion is to analyze subtext, and in my view, at least, your subtext is pretty clear. "Audiogames.net is not a good place to discuss audio games, so I'm going to help make a better one. Who wants in?". I suspect that if you bother to respond to this at all, you will shy away from conceding this, and will say that you don't mean harm. Unfortunately, your actions are speaking louder than your words, and even your words are conspiring to paint a bit of a grim picture here.

If and when I see reason to believe that your forum will offer things that this environment does not or cannot match, I will quite happily relinquish my stance. Until then, however, I'm dubious. Whatever happens, though, I wish you the best of luck, and tend to agree that if the project simply doesn't have enough going for it to let it stand on its own, it'll die with very little harm done. I would very gently advise that even for users who are far more hostile to this notion than I am, calling this potential forum-owner power-hungry or whatnot is going a bit far. Let's keep the personal attacks down and the good conversation flowing.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-10-30 21:32:22 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2018-10-30 21:44:00)

I am sorry, what is so exciting about this new forum, again? what is the real newness? do you even have a name for it so some of us can get an idea to add another rss entry (wait, do you know how that is implemented) to the list?
those who have left because they could simply not control their own personal involvement.. I wonder where they would go next?
mmm and... a new project that has been going on for a year does not sound that new to me... why didn't we know about this before? why the sudden hurry now, especially at this time?
too vague to convince me, sorry

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2018-10-30 23:03:16

I think if anything, this is the best time to start a new forum. As I have stated before, other people have left because of the events that have gone on. They need a new start, and they are not going to have that new start on this forum. I don’t see any of the people who left ever coming back again, so where else are they going to post?

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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2018-10-31 00:00:31

Liam wrote:

Twitter, instagram, Reddit all serve millions of users. This community is already way smaller and way more fragmented as it is? Now you want to add another forum to the mix? As a developer I have to say this is frustrating. So now I have to keep my eye on a place with another set of threads and possibly a news section that I have to post in? No thanks. Please consider trying to help the existing community instead of already fracturing an already fractured community.

This pretty much. This is the best response so far of all the replies so i quoted it for more emphasis.

John Petrucci Fan all the time.
twitter: @hadirezae3
skype ID: hadi.gsf7

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2018-10-31 06:36:30

Have there really been that many people who have left this forum due to recent events? If so, they haven't spoken publicly about it, which is obviously their right, I just find it interesting. I know of a few, sure, but the wording of a couple of these posts makes it sound like a much bigger thing than I would have originally thought.

As for creating a new forum, I'll admit that I can see why the wording of that first post has raised some hackles, but the outpouring of negativity has been mostly unwarranted. So what if there's another forum which discusses audio games? I don't know how many of you have experience with mailing lists, but let me tell you something, there have been way, way more unnecessary groups polluting that landscape than there ever have been audio gaming forums, even blindness-related forums. Back when Yahoogroups was thriving and extremely accessible, there were certain blind people, and yes, it was the same small group who tended to do this, who would create tons and tons of general chat groups. When one wouldn't take off, they'd simply create another which would supposedly serve the same purpose, and when that one inevitably failed, they never learned, they just kept creating the groups over and over and over again. it was frankly ridiculous. Even if you stayed out of that drama, there were a ton of small tech groups, some of which were started by select people who weren't viewed all that favorably in the blind community at the time, at least the community I encountered who were heavy mailing list users. So this is NOTHING compared to that. Before people get too dead set on jumping on the fragmentation bandwagon, I really think a little bit of a reality check is in order. Trust me, as someone who was there. I do get it that a lot of younger members of this forum probably missed all of that, and they sure didn't miss much, but the idea that one new forum could actually cause this one to implode? I call bullshit on that.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2018-10-31 07:01:35

@44 agreed. Not to mention, like it or not some people do view this forum in a negative light. I don't, but there are certainly those who do and have gone vocal about it. See why should we only have one forum for discussing audio games? There are many forums out there for less broad topics than audio games - many forums that discuss those topics. Also I don't get the fragmentation ideal. See, fragmentation would assume that some people will leave this forum in favor of the other, the rest would stick to this forum and not touch the other. It would mean both would be completely dependent of one another and there would be no one who visited both and used them accordingly. However, I view it like this: honestly, creating other means of communication will attract different people. Not only will it gain the blind gaming community an extra foothold by providing other platforms than just the one, having more places to discuss will attract more people. For instance there will, be those people who visit this site and post on it, whereas there'll be those who only use the other one, though that won't be everyone. My point is that another forum, hell even more than one other forum, is a positive investment for the blind gaming community, so long as those other forums are reputable like this and don't turn to utter crap.

Twitter: stevo399
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Have a nice day!

2018-10-31 08:23:15 (edited by defender 2018-10-31 11:59:30)

Yeah I see some good points here, but I also see allot of people just saying, me no want fragmentation. Okay... and? why.
Explain please what you think the harm would be, because the only one I can think of is that we already have so few intermediate or higher level computer users, let alone gamers of any kind in the blind community, that making another site might confuse them? Even that seems flimsy to me... If the relationship between sites is friendly enough, that shouldn't be an issue at all because they would just be referred to what they need.
I think you guys are looking ten steps into the future and highlighting something that isn't even close to being a problem yet.
The only fragmentation I've ever encountered in the ag.net community was that some devs like Twitter allot and I stopped using it, and that's on me, it's mostly lazyness and not being sure which client is best that keeps me from it, and the issue only comes up now and then anyway, it's not actually a difficult thing to fix.
I suppose their are some Twitch streamers and Discord users as well and those platforms aren't ideal, particularly the latter ones, but most of them aren't actually what I would necessarily consider a core part of the community if they aren't serving their audience better BY OFFERING MORE ACCESSIBLE ALTERNATIVES, or are gearing their stuff towards the mainstream for publicity's sake as it is.
That said, I still agree with the idea that the site needs to be different enough to serve an actual purpose before I'll care and see it as much more than a breakaway from ag.net

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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2018-10-31 11:55:27

There is an audiogames subreddit, and it's practically dead.

I joined it about a week ago and hardly saw anything new.

Perhaps it's the way reddit is layed out and most people aren't use to it, I'm still trying to get the hang of it myself.

I'll take the wait and see approach.

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2018-11-01 15:07:31

Will this new site allow cracks? If not, there's no reason to change.

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2018-11-01 16:01:44

If this new forum is created would I, for instance, still be able to join, even though I am moderator of the audiogames.net forum so we could at least partake in the discussions (not as mods of the new forum, but as members, to see what's what)?

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2018-11-01 16:40:07

@48, what the hell is rong with you?
Your seriously asking this person first of all, to make a forum with no legality rules? and second of all to create a forum where assholes and cheap people can cheat people out of there hard earned money? do us all a favor and fuck off?

yo! so I'm working on programing, it's really hard. But I'll tell you where you can contact me if your stupid enough to do so.
Contact information:email: [email protected]
Skype: Brennan Draves
I'm usually found on online games, chatting, and being warned bye admins for talking to much, f**k you admin!

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