2018-10-16 03:51:20

I think, originally anyway, the agenda was to inform the community of issues surrounding Dark. Inevitably we're asking for something to be done out of disagreement. This is, not, a matter of destroying rules that govern the forum, I'm actually curious where that comes into the picture. In fact, would it not be making communication with the staff more inclusive, thus allowing multiple opinions to be heard? It's pretty clear, at least according to the original post, ark hasn't always consulted the entire board before making these snap decisions

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2018-10-16 03:52:38

From the moderation I've seen, I always thought Dark tried his best to be impartial and fair.

That whole situation with Lori and Walter did strike me as being a bit strange though. It felt like one of those he said/he said things. Kind of like what's going on in America's current political climate. No matter what side someone is on though, editing logs to make their side look good and the other side bad is just not cool. It's also not cool to continue to support someone when you know they planted fake evidence.

As for Ironcross' ban, I will admit ignorance about his other offenses. I don't read every single thread here or keep track of who got how many warnings, but I don't really agree with the reason for his ban. Could he have worded what he said a bit better? Absolutely, but it still didn't seem like a personal attack. I remember saying things a lot worse over in the Survive The Wild topic about the changes Sam made. I was pretty dang harsh. Sorry, Sam. However, I'm not a moderator, and I don't make the rules. I just do my best to follow them.

If all this in the blog post is indeed true, I have to say that I'm more disappointed than anything. I won't be jumping on the let's get rid of Dark bandwagon, simply because I'm only seeing one side here. I don't know Dark's side, I don't know what went on in moderator conversations, and therefore I don't have enough information to form an informed opinion. If Dark can't be trusted to moderate properly, I do think he should step down though. I don't say this with any malice intended. We're all human and we make mistakes.

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2018-10-16 03:54:21

I'll start by saying i'm very grateful for the position i have on this forum. It's a lot of power that i balance very delicately, i mean, as admin i could literally delete accounts of anybody i had a disagreement with, but that's not me. My point is, we try to do what's best for the whole group here. Perhaps we could be more lenient, and let flame wars rage on, or be too strict and ban people for cursing too much. We can't always make everyone happy, and it's pretty apparent that something should be done to address the concerns of the majority who have posted in this topic. What that solution is, i personally am not sure at this time.

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2018-10-16 03:59:11

sorry for double post. There was an interesting point raised about who would replace dark. Honestly? I have no idea. Honestly though, there are many people that could probably do it, you can't easily get much worse than completely flattening someone to the ground like what happened to Walter. Of course the other things in the post are important, we can see how if you don't agree with dark, your just, out. And of course dark has made some fair banns before, we aren't saying he hasn't. But the thing is, you only have to do something like what dark did once to lose the reputation. No one could care less weather dark made some good entries in the game database, no one could care less weather dark has had some cool conversations, or may have worked to keep the forum here, or deleted the account of spam bots, or banned some people fairly, if he has participated knowingly in shattering somebody like that. We all know the pull this forum has in this community. Dark knows it as well. Dark made this ban very public. Apparently dark encouraged Lori to post the bash Walter topic in the first place. It's a public forum that so many people visit, that if Walter gets banned here, people will see it. when it happens in a massive topic like it did, even more people will see it. I talked to Walter, at first accusing him and then realizing he was innocent. I could hear it in his voice. he was frantic. Hardly anyone wanted to talk to him anymore because no one believed him. After the entire thing happened he pretty much vanished and I hardly heard from him after that. He had a website he was working on, he had friends, he was making podcasts to try to help people understand games and other technology, and this is what he gets? For 1 moderator to just decide to do this, especially knowingly is just unforgivable. I know most people get all of this, I just want to reaffirm it. I don't want a forum with any administrators that think it's even kind of OK to do that to someone for any! reason. As some know, I tried to raise the issue before again but I couldn't get any ground. I just got shot down and again, I disagreed with dark, topic got closed by post 20 or so. That was before I knew dark was actually somewhat in on it. now... well, I don't even know what to say or do. I just know that something needs to change. Walter needs that banned status removed from his name even if he never comes back. People will see that banned status and remember it. OK, anyway I will end my tangent for now big_smile just random bits of my opinion I'm just throwing out there. I'm glad that so many people see things in a similar way.

I am a web designer, and a game developer. If you wish see me at http://www.samtupy.com

2018-10-16 04:00:10

@SirBadger
in post number 23
Again this was not made to overthrow anyone, but allow people to see what I found. What you read was not the original planned post, that did not focus on any one person at all. I am gathering you are connected to this some how, as you are reacting to things that were not brought up or even hinted at. No one is talking about getting rid of the rules and mods and taking over, in fact I specifically said I personally have no problems with the mods, and felt bad for their collective reputation being brought down when there wasn't a reason for it. My original plan was to write a post about moderation in general, but as I researched more I realized that would have been dishonest and incorrect as everything kept leading me to the same place.

Also I have seen no one say they want a moderator position, or even hint at it indirectly. If I missed it I apologize, but that doesn't see to be what anyone is saying either on this topic or in the blog post. As for Iron Cross I covered that at length in the blog post and there isn't anything to add to it here.

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The BSG Blog
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2018-10-16 04:11:59

said I am keeping out of it now and I stick to that but I will say, no I'm not connected in anyway.

if duct tape doesn't fix it, you haven't used enough.

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2018-10-16 04:14:35

SirBadger wrote:

said I am keeping out of it now and I stick to that but I will say, no I'm not connected in anyway.

So then why are you still posting?

2018-10-16 04:19:04

@33 xd. So can we call this a darktatorship?

----------
An anomaly in the matrix. An error in existence. A being who cannot get inside the goddamn box! A.K.A. Me.

2018-10-16 04:35:19

So As a developper I certainly have concerns about moderation since the AG forum is a major method of getting news out about my games along with discussion of them.
I don't want to call for anyone's head, but I think that what needs to happen is more accountability by admins, plus one unified list of rules. there needs to be clear-cut rules on what is bannable, for how long, and why, andhow, and what, and who. There also needs to be fair moderation across all boards. If sharing cracked software is grounds for removal, then this needs to extend to other pirated content. This is super important.
I don't think any sort of coo/takeover is at all helpful, but I impress upon the admins of the importance of getting together and having constructive discussions on how to improve the forum.

2018-10-16 04:50:52

We are not trying to take over moderation of the forum. We just want dark and if possible Lori to be brought to justice for doing what they did. Banning someone without reason is one thing, having 2 rules section is another etc, but IMO, and apparently many others as well, it's just not OK to use your rank, your status and your reputation to knowingly participate in ruining an innocent person's online reputation while you knew they were innocent. That's most of our issue here. We of course want the rules fixed, we want less of these bans, but I think the big overshadowing here is Walter. There is just nothing remotely even kind of OK about that situation, and the evidence shows that dark was involved in doing it. We don't want to take over moderation. Do we want dark gone? yes, yes we do. That's because you can't just say sorry and move on from destroying someone like that. No one innocent deserves that, and Walter got it.

I am a web designer, and a game developer. If you wish see me at http://www.samtupy.com

2018-10-16 05:02:33

I agree with all of those here that agree the one who cleverly calls himself "Dark" (which is a very fitting name, given what he has done) or Luke, to use his given name, should be relieved of his position of head moderator, because of his abuse of executive power.

I love audio gaming!

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2018-10-16 05:04:54

That being said though I do feel he does have the right to defend himself. Everyone deserves that right.

2018-10-16 05:06:51

of course, nothing is stopping him from posting on this topic. of course he can defend himself. It's a large hole to dig yourself out of, but of course he has the right to try.

I am a web designer, and a game developer. If you wish see me at http://www.samtupy.com

2018-10-16 05:11:03 (edited by SirBadger 2018-10-16 05:16:08)

@33 don't be so pedantic. I was pointing out I had no connections here and I was standing by what I said that I was keeping out of the argument, which I am still doing. although catch 22, now I guess I am still involved all be it a slightly different one. anyway. I've said all I have to say and now I am keeping out of it. if you want to be pedantic again about the fact I replied then fine, have fun.

if duct tape doesn't fix it, you haven't used enough.

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2018-10-16 05:12:12 (edited by Liam 2018-10-16 05:14:19)

hahaha 40. I trolled you and won. Have a great day.

2018-10-16 05:32:15

It's about 2:30 AM in England right now. You can't claim that he's avoiding the situation until at least later today—be reasonable.

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2018-10-16 05:33:46

Agreed 42. Some people are so impatient.

2018-10-16 05:54:06 (edited by musicalman 2018-10-16 05:56:05)

It's also possible Dark needs to cool down and is taking a little break. The recent situations here are very taxing for all of us, I couldn't blame him for needing a breather. Especially if he is to come back and address all of this. If he could say anything to satisfy the masses, it would be best for him to have a clear calm mind while saying it and not one full of wild rampant emotions.

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2018-10-16 06:10:13

@44, considering his history, that's exactly what he'll do -- respond irrationally. Or he'll come up with some other reason that doesn't pass scrutiny to explain himself. But ah well, we'll see.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-10-16 06:15:42 (edited by grryfindore 2018-10-16 06:22:18)

Hi,
SirBadger, thank you. I thought everyone had gone shit crazy on here. your post, at least makes me believe that there might be a few who have their heads out of all this politics groupism and powerplays.

Having been a member of this forum for quite a while now, all I have to say is, most bans that I have seen were quite warrented, and hell there were some people such as Ironcross that would have gotten a boot much faster and for much longer if I were in the mods position.
Nowadays we all or most of us seem to think  that insulting people, being rude and making personal comments is something good and something to be lorded depending on who our friends are,the friend cercle we move in and who the insults or derogatory
comments are aimed at.

The close topics if you notice that we seem to be talking about recently were mostly due to people such as Ethin, Ironcross and a few other hanger ons who tend to pat people such as Ironcrosses back when he goes on one of his insulting sprees.

All that I wonder is, besides all this bullshit and politics along with the groupism, what has happened to being polite to people and getting your point across or disagreement across in a manner that doesn't directly or indirectly degrades a persom or makes comments on them which aren't exactly nice.
A few years ago, call it about 4 years, the forum used to be a type of place where anyone at all could post anything, and not have a few thousand people jump down their throats for improper english, spellings or make fun of them or insult them. If you liked android, you could say so, and the people who are were android fans could jump on and have a nice discussion about it. Same for apple, Screenreaders, gay, feeling suicidal etc. not exact examples but kind of anyway. It used to be a nice supportive and generally just a nice place to hang out on.
It all has been going down ever sinse a few people (I still see it as impolite to take names here) joined the forums, grew up and got a few hanger ons along with them. and now what they want is for this to go down even further in the dumps where insulting  so called people who deserve it in whos opinion, I ask? in yours person X may deserve some insults, a reality check according to some people, in mine it doesn't, and I am sure in a few others opinions as well, what is to be done in such a case?

Saying what you want is fare enough, that's what forums and discussion boards exist for, but IMO when you start insulting people and calling names, that's where a line has to be drawn and said enough is enough.

In closing, all I would like to say is
about the blog post the op talks about, Smoke-J isn't exactly the most objective person when it comes to this forum (stw etc) and it can not have been more bias, or actually it could be, if you were to go looking.so I wouldn't exactly read and believe all of it and think all of it is objective. when Articles are subjective and full of biases and each persons perseptions I wouldn't go believeing all I read.
Slight edit, Ethin, lmao mate believe me, most reasonable people would think your ban was most certainly deserved. And you are probably better behaved on here because of that. perfect example, I say.

And for all the rest of you, If you are actually capable of reading, understanding and having a few thoughts of your own,
Mind your own biscuits and life will be gravy.
Here is a song for you, read the lyrics, they are for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E598KjYyBJI
Grryf

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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2018-10-16 06:40:49

Hi.
While i don't usually respond to such topics I feel that this one will be a major turning point in the forum's existence, so everyone must express his oppinion regarding this matter.
Since dark hasn't deffended himself yet, I will hold my observations for now. I can clearly see that many of the people who had issues with the mods or with dark himself are ganging against him, but I was kinda expecting that. I believe that there must be a rewrite of forum rules, they must be easy to understand,, they must be easy to reach for all users, and each action taken by the mods must be in agreement with the rules, which must contain a section about warning and bans.

feel free to add me to your Skype. it is valentin.velecico.9
nothing is impossible.

2018-10-16 07:19:57 (edited by Smoke-J 2018-10-16 07:21:55)

grryfindore wrote:

Hi,
SirBadger, thank you. I thought everyone had gone shit crazy on here. your post, at least makes me believe that there might be a few who have their heads out of all this politics groupism and powerplays.

Again, though I have stated it multiple times both here on the blog. The post was originally about all moderators, it however did not turn into that, no politics involved. A searching of my name would show a lack of posting on here recently for anything other than major BSG announcements. As for group ism and power plays, I added in all my associations with people involved in my post for the point of being transparent, and nothing inn that section is untrue. To try and discredit patterns based on a perceived bias of the author(me) is not accurate or honest. For this exact reason I interviewed others and used their information as I myself did not have anything to go off of. If the power play you are refering to is other moderators trying to take down Dark at is quite the unproven accusation which doesn't have a place in the discussion for me.

grryfindore wrote:

about the blog post the op talks aout, Smoke-J isn't exactly the most objective person when it comes to this forum (stw etc) and it can not have been more bias, or actually it could be, if you were to go looking.so I wouldn't exactly read and believe all of it and think all of it is objective. when Articles are subjective and full of biases and each persons perseptions I wouldn't go believeing all I read.

I don't know what you are trying to insinuate here as it is quite confusing. I chose to walk away from STW on my own terms, and hold no ill will towards the game or it's players. I honestly don't see how this has anything to do with STW, the developer of the game, the admins, or the players. If you are still under the assumption I am involved with STW then you are misinformed as I have 0 to do with the game, either as a admin or player. When I was an admin/game master on the game of course I posted about STW along with what happened on the game, both defending and discussing it as any admin/game master would have done in my place.

Ask anyone and they will tell you I have never personally liked Walter, again as I stated in the beginning of the blog post. I have argued with Sam on different occasions about his assumed guilt, as until very recently I assumed he had done everything he was accused of. Also as I stated in the blog post I have never had a bad encounter with Dark, not on forums or on Core-exiles which he also played for a time. To think this was me trying to get back at him or anyone is simply wrong, there is nothing in my past or the past of anyone else to even suggest such a thing. The reason for that is quite simple, there is no hidden motivation for this blog post at all, it is a post letting everyone else know what I saw and what I found out as I researched more.

I did not try and hide that my opinions are in the post, it is quite the opposite actually. At multiple points I point out my thoughts and feelings on topics are in the post. I still do not understand how the post should not be trusted when  it is based on quotes taken directly from the forums which anyone can check. These are not doctored, they are there for anyone to see. As I have already said I connected the dots. I didn't make up any fake quotes, I didn't pretend to talk to people for the post. If you are simply making empty claims I lied and made up information then by all means do so, but don't expect me to continue in a conversation which is only grounded in unfounded suspicions.

grryfindore wrote:

And for all the rest of you, If you are actually capable of reading, understanding and having a few thoughts of your own,

As I point out in the blog post when it comes to dark, believing you are the righteous one doesn't excuse talking down to others in my opinion as you do in the above quote.
I along with others are perfectly capable of reading, unless you believe everyone who is disagreeing with you is illiterate.
I am also very capable of comprehension and understanding what I read or listen to. I would also hazard a guess that most if not all on the forums are capable of this as well.
I can also say with 100% confidence I am able to have a thought of my own, and that I do this on a quite regular basis. In fact I would also assume everyone here is quite capable of this as they have posted their own thoughts which they wrote themselves, and which they more than likely fully understand.
May I also just point out that you said the above thing directly after saying.

grryfindore wrote:

All that I wonder is, besides all this bullshit and politics along with the groupism, what has happened to being polite to people and getting your point across or disagreement across in a manner that doesn't directly or indirectly degrades a persom or makes comments on them which aren't exactly nice.

I have been doing my best to not insult anyone, to stay civil, and to be as reasonable as I possibly could be through this entire forum thread. I'm pretty sure my posts tell that story. However if you read posts on other topics you'll notice the same is not true. I am not claiming to be an angel, quite the opposite I openly admit and embrace the fact that I am an ass. However to try and insinuate that I have some ulterior motive is simply wrong, there is nothing else I can say to add to it. Attempting to prove a negative is a losing battle which I'm not going to get involved in. Once I realized what this post was going to be I made the decision to be open with every connection I had to those involved, and to make sure every person I interviewed read the post before publishing so they could confirm it's accuracy to what they told me. This was to avoid just this situation, someone calling the information into question, however I didn't see it just being a general calling of my motives into question, because All this was already explained in the disclaimers section of the blog post.

blackscreengaming.com
The BSG Blog
follow @BSG_blog on twitter
"Facts don't care about your feelings" Ben Shapiro

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2018-10-16 08:16:13

I'm going to summarize all my opinions in this post, and then my involvement with this topic will revert to just reading it.
I believe the actions that Dark has taken for various situations in the past were less than desirable, however, I don't believe he should step down permanently. At most, I believe he should probably take a break from moderating for a year or two until relations between him and the forum members have mended. In particular, I didn't really respect the decision to ban ironcross because he did not say anything in his last post to warrant a ban. As the mods have stated, it was not because of anything ironcross had said in that post, but rather the things he said in his previous posts. If this is indeed the case, it would have been better to ban him right after the last fallout that me and him had instead of his last post on the game moderator topic. I am in full support of him getting the boot, but the way Dark went about it was all wrong. If he banned him because he doesn't like him, it would be better to state that fact. Would it be fair? No it wouldn't be, but at least he'd be honest about it. As for the Walter situation, I don't recall being involved with that too heavily if at all, so the only thing I will say on the matter is that I think Dark was totally wrong about the hole thing and definitely needs to reevaluate his decision.
In short, I have a love hate relationship with this forum and a good few of it's members. Reading this post hasn't done much to change that, except for the fact that it has given me a slightly different outlook on things. Beyond that, I still think of things mostly in the same light. Now I have stated my opinion, so I will opt to keep silent from this point onward.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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2018-10-16 08:17:46

well, here we go. my rep is screwed over as it is, so may as well voice my opinion.
I have no issues with dark, as a person. never have, most likely never will, for I don't know him that well.
but, it's pretty apparent that he's not fit to be a moderator. nothing wrong with this, some of us are not fit for code, others are not for this, some are not fit for that, there is, as I say, nothing  wrong with it. in this case, for dark, it's moderation. the But what really shocked me , was the idea of dark editing the FAQ section. . that really hit me. it would make sense, and explain things, plus he has the power, but I never thought of it that way. also, looking at JimmyDub's ban. so let's see. if I now talk about cracks, not sharing, not even asking for one, just bring it up in context, I'll be banned. yet, if I post my newest redspot clone, it will take 2 weeks to close down my topic. can someone please explain how this works? ideally, an admin?

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2018-10-16 08:50:35

Hi,
@smoke j,

Smoke-J wrote:

I have been doing my best to not insult anyone, to stay civil, and to be as reasonable as I possibly could be through this entire forum thread.

I agree with with what you say, at least that part. But then again your blog post and the way its written isn't exactly subjective and comes at an awfully convinent time, no? Also,

no
politics involved.A searching of my name would show a lack of posting on here recently for anything other than major BSG announcements.

I beg to differ when it comes to the no politics involved, bah.


My Comment as regards people having their own thoughts, being able to actually! read what's written that is understand the meaning that particular post sentence or paragraph is saying is directly related to the groupism politics and powerplay sentence I wrote, specificly the groupism or sheepism (That is a slightly harsh term I use, but apologies if it offends) part of it.
That is, being against a person's thoughts views opinions or anything at all these days,and ganging upon that person regardless of what's written or being said. and just agreeing because your friend or a popular person has written something and not even reading what the other person has written and is trying to say. For example, the outcry against Ironcross's ban by a certain section of the forums. It was truely hard for me to understand, how people'd call that ban unfare, when multiple wornings were issued, oh and the posts and topics you talk of, they are right there for people to see how offencive and insulting that guy was being to people, deserved or not.
And yes, that was rather impolite of me, but I am rather sick of all this rudeness, politics and groupism that has been going on here lately, and this blog post is another such part.

Smoke-J wrote:

If the power play you are refering to is other moderators trying to take down Dark at
is quite the unproven accusation which doesn't have a place in the discussion for me.

Never said such a thing, or infered it, good going there, though.


As to your bias or lack there of, and everything else in general, all I have to say is.
1. I know your feelings about the forums, and that of the people you associate with in fact we have had discussions about the views you hold about the forum, Dark and so on. The discussions weren't overly long, as I am not a fan of those big_smile but they were direct enough. so at least you aren't exactly neutral and not the right person (unbiased) to be researching anything or linking anything in a neutral unbiased manner.
2. The forums topics, posts etc quotes can be checked, yes but you could really prove anything and everything if you link pieces in the right way any person who has studied research could tell you that.
draw on the right posts and people, don't draw on a few others and just show the picture / parts of the picture and you could prove anything at all, Say what you will.

Like I said, I have been a part of the forums sinse 2009 and had been lurking here for longer than that, and yes I read almost everything I come across and I truely don't see that the mods specially dark as you point out are that bad. or that the bans have been unwarrented, most aren't anyway. I'd go as far as saying 99% in many cases, they have even relented, given chances where I or other mods wouldn't have,and have been too lenient with a few jurks.

Some of my previous post wasn't at smoke-J But other parts were, it was at certain parts of the forum members that have been the cause of all the negativity and ass holishness lol around here lately.

My previous post says most of what I want to say, be it in rather impolite terms due to frustration big_smile But I truely don't have the time.
I felt strongly enough about what was happening here, and all the things that were being said that I took time out of my work to do so, both times.
  At those who have been band before, or  are, all I gotta say is. It hurts nothing and nobody to be nice,to not be a jirk and a asshole, in fact When you are one as is the fassion nowadays or trending around here, you hurt someone elses feelings, may get yourself ban and end up hurting yourself and the other person at the other end.

And its kinda obvious that people that dislike dark are sort of ganging upon the guy here, but eh.
I am not really eloquent or as a good writer as most, but I say what I have to say straight, try not to be a dick, although I may have failed sometimes at that. smile
Piece out all, work to do, money to be earned. don't exactly have too much time on my hands to be saying all I wanted, but speak up we must.
Grryf

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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