2018-05-18 18:47:51

The problem with BGT is its making coding too easy, guess what, its not supposed to be easy, its supposed to be damn difficult, frustrating, aggravating, you know why? Because as the end of that, what you've got out of it is knowledge,, and a product. BGT doesn't just make learning coding easier, it dumbs it way way down. You cannot just take the essentials of something, pass it to someone, and be like OK now go out and be brilliant. Would you want a neurosurgeon operating on your brain to remove a tumor if you knew the sum total of their knowledge was, "Alright, this here's a scalpel, here's yer suction, clamps, pads, alright, now don't go screwin' nuttin' up." Is that enough? Not to me it isn't. Now, you get your aspiring young programmers out there and say OK this is what variables are, this is how you define a function, here's your flow control statements like if...elseif, here's all about loops. OK, Now we've taught you all about data types and all this other stuff, go out and make an awesome game. But there's more to coding than knowing the syntax of the language, there's more to it than knowing what the difference between a float and a double are. What you have to learn next is how to conceptualize what you want to do. What you have to do is learn that coding is telling a very dumb machine what to do, and you need to tell it precisely what to do. Computers are not smart, at all. We can add this abstract layer of AI, or so-called AI to it to make people think they are, but they're not. You want to see what happens? Take some code with at least two if tests in it, and then start moving around your endifs or your right braces. Make sure you have the requisite amount to close all the if statements in the code, but move them around, misplace them, and then run the code and see what happens. What if you had several layers if nested if statements, and you ran into that problem.

People do not know how to code just from reading the BGT manual. It is a very good manual, very well written, and I've used it before. But it does not teach you all you need to know. People have their heads up in the clouds, and think that when they finish it, they're ready to make games, but they're really only just beginning their journey. The problem is, they think to themselves, well, I don't know how to build a game engine, I don't know how to design a game inventory system, I don't know how to design an entire weapon class. So what happens? They find all they need out there, pull it into their project and make a few modifications to variable values, constants, etc. and think they've done something. OK, you've demonstrated that you know how to use the internet, you've demonstrated you know how to use BGT's include keyword, you've demonstrated you know how to save and compile your code, but you haven't done much more than that. I've written this blog post that explains my position fully.

Now, to be fair, especially to the dev, Phillip Benefall who really does get dumped on, my problem isn't with him, I'm sure he didn't set out to destroy the audio games community, he couldn't have know the course of events that would follow, he was trying to help, and in no way can be held responsible for what happened as a result of BGT being released. When it was released freely, I was excited because I struggled to code all my life but it was something I was interested in. I read the manual a few times, but I still couldn't get it. I'm finally, and I mean at the age of 32, finally starting to be able to get a handle on coding. I still struggle with it and I always will because I lack the natural talent for it, and some of the traits really good programmers have. Last weekend, I read a bunch on javascript and PHP, and built a thing on my website that generates a page based on every audio file in a folder. It adds a row to the table with three columns, the file name at the left, the file size in the middle, and an HTML5 audio player at the right. When new files are placed in that folder, or files are deleted, the next time that page is generated, i.e. someone visits, or you refresh from your end, the new files will show up, and the old ones will be removed. It's not that much code, but it took me like 4 hours, most of which was debugging. But I have this determination to do something, and I just keep hammering away at it. I was proud when it first worked, despite the fact a lot of people would look down at me with a sneer. To them, something like that would be no biggy at all, maybe they could do it in the space of five minutes or less. But to me, someone who has worked off and on all their life at trying to learn to write code, yeah that was kind of cool when it all came together, and the files actually played.

You cannot, can... not take shortcuts when you learn to code, if you do, you're doing nothing more than setting yourself up for failure. And that would be a shame if you did that, because you could have otherwise might have made good games. I know its hard, I know its daunting, overwhelming, frustrating, damned aggravating at times, but if you have the passion, and the drive, and a bit of talent at figuring things out, working the problem logically and methodically, you'll probably end up doing well. This is why I have a problem with BGT, and hey, if people who already know how to code well, or learned how to code and they do it well on BGT want to keep making games on it, I would say go for it, just be aware that you're creating potential issues if its a paid product because of this antivirus thing, and its beyond windows defender now.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

Thumbs up +2

2018-05-18 20:28:01

Post 51 has expressed what I've tried to say in this topic perfectly. A lot better than I could have, anyway. smile

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-05-18 23:17:35

you all say that all young bgt programmers do is coppy some classes and include them in a main script, but I can tell you that's not how all of them did it. When carlos first got started and made some really cool games such as battle zone, there was a lot less material and classes for bgt floating around. The same for mason, and probably even for sam.

Bar, bar, bar...
Bar is my name and to go bar is my aim...
Sometimes I'll go "Bad bar",
But in the end its always bar, ahem beer, ahem bar! beer bar!

Thumbs up +2

2018-05-18 23:58:43

And that is why, to this day, all mainstream developers create their own engines and utilities from scratch.
Is there anyone who would have been making something great if not for BGT? Like, have you watched people with noticeable potential as game developers floundering in the kit-pit? It's possible that I just haven't noticed because I've avoided the discussion groups and most new posts haven't caught my interest, so if my impression that this is not the case is incorrect, do tell.
Oh, we need to improve, what with BGT games getting blocked by all the antimalware, and BGT being restricted to audio, and being stuck on Windows. But I get this impression that the same people who haven't released anything innovative with BGT would, in the world without it, still have not released anything innovative. If BGT wasn't being advertised as the n00b's toolkit, it'd be something else, and people would run into the exact same conceptual barriers, IMO.
But what do I know? My demonstrated ability to comprehend the working of other minds has been rather lacking.
I'm just having a hard time imagining someone who struggles to do something impressive with BGT, in the world without BGT, instead becoming a world-class C++ master who would have given us Elder Hearts: Fortcraft by now. "This sounded easy but it's too hard!" ... "This sounded hard, and it is!" So, what, do they lose hope in the first one, but try harder in the second because there were no misconceptions about difficulty? Sounds weirdly specific and kinda dubious. But if all we need is more Growth Mindset, then let's start posting a bunch of Growth Mindset motivational articles.

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

Thumbs up +4

2018-05-19 02:20:30

CAE, +1

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

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2018-05-19 09:23:39 (edited by defender 2018-05-19 16:12:31)

Responses to posts 49, 50, 53 and 54.


Musicalman that was an amazing post, not much more to say to be honest.


Skluttrell I think your oversimplifying this issue, and I don't want you to be scared off do to that, because in general we are a very appreciative, if sometimes greedy community, as you might imagine from our unique position compared to the mainstream.


You can appreciate the sacrifice and hard work that someone did while also not accepting bad coding practices, bad project management, or bad PR.
I see what your saying, but I'll tell you right now that most of the people here wouldn't be cruel to a developer for making mistakes unless they kept making the same ones again and again without any respect for the community that (yes they are giving something that they worked hard on to, usually for free) but that also likely helped them to get where they are now with coding assistance or classes, and gave them feedback to improve their game and a place to have their work appreciated.
It's not a one way street, and developers are not gods simply because they deign to give us things, if they can't take  (constructive) criticism than they should get someone who can to be the one that interacts with the community.


I don't know how long you were around before creating an account, but the posts in this thread are mostly out of frustration do to the problems we've been having over the last few years with the same stolen code base, and it's not the normal kind of response you'd get on, for instance, the new release's room.
We're still hashing this hole thing about BGT out, discussing weather it's really the problem or not, and we have been for a while but from what I remember, no one really hated on crazy party, Marina Break and screaming strike, Park boss and tube sim, or all of Oriols games, ETC for being made in BGT for instance.
Mostly we're talking about games using said stolen code base that are clones, or near clones, which use the same (somewhat flawed) underlying systems which as you can imagine gets extremely repetitive and disheartening after a while, and the large amount of generic space invaders or sidescrollers that haven't really been in style for years now after having the market flooded.
I think we all at least subconsciously appreciate the shit that a coder has to go through, particularly someone on their own with no budget who also has to do story, sound, and PR, as much as we can without having done it our selves, but I agree that some of us can lose track of that at times, again particularly when certain devs keep doing the same dumb things again and again, but we should still appreciate them for making such an effort when we our selves haven't.


Either way we have allot to look forward too with the big strides in accessibility among the top dogs in gaming though, and we're getting more high quality indi projects from outside the community than ever before, we just need to not lose track of that, but transition is hard.


Connor you make a very good point, and I always come back to it, no matter how much Mason and Sam suck at PR, project management and proper coding practices, they still put out some of the most memorable audio games of this decade, and more importantly they have done amazing things that I doubt even Phill ever imagined with BGT, and layed much of the groundwork for the modern age of audio games, which, is pretty fucking impressive coming from a couple teenagers.


Cae, me try understand words smart man say but me no can cuz brain hurt big.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +2

2018-05-19 13:14:33

i'm not a coder but i can say this.
when i was a child, my father would not allow me to use a calculator. he told me at the time that when i can competently perform basic maths calculation without the use of a calculator then i can have one. at the time i didn't like that or understand it. now for example i can go into a shop, put prices together to work out how much i'm spending etc. i can also work out what the better deal is on a given product. say washing liquid for example. what size bottle do i buy and which size is better value for money. yeah i could stand there and say hey siri what is such and such and hopefully get an answer. however i prefer to work it out for myself because i can. because i was given the skill to work it out by my father not getting me a calculator thus not giving me a shortcut. now i'm older i can appreciate this.
now i am older, i think that calculators should not be allowed in schools. the amount of kids/young adults i see these days who can't do basic maths calculation and i cringe.
again i would like to state that i am not a coder but equally i do believe that having shortcuts right from the word go doesn't really teach. it will set you up for a fall in the long run.

Thumbs up +4

2018-05-19 15:02:44

In post 51, I was not referring to Sam, Mason, Carlos, or Liam, or basically anyone who learned to code on BGT, or came to it from another language. BY learned to code, I mean learned to do it well. OK, Redspot used to be somewhat buggy, and you'd get this hard crash, not talking about BGT un time error would you like to copy the stack trace to the clipboard (by the way, doing so copies all the wrong information) I'm talking a full on CTD that sometimes got accompanied with a redspot.exe has stopped working, Microsoft is searching for a solution, bla bla bla. But its not like that anymore, and even at Redspot's most buggy, it wasn't a tenth as buggy as some of these other games.


@54 True to a point, perhaps more true in the mainstream community, but here, where the only easy option was BGT, well, when it first came out I wasn't really into audio games, so I don't know, people probably flocked to it. I'm not trying to say, OK developers, you need to use Python, or you need to use java, or start using C++. What I really care about is quality. That's why I want to see BGT go the way of the dodo.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

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2018-05-19 15:28:06

Sure, I get that there's passed goings-on that I'm not privy to, and, as people, not all developers are anyone I share principles with. Full disclosure, I don't know much about the person who develops the Blindfold games, and they aren't games that held my attention personally either, but the fact of the matter is, that person has done something I have yet to do—publish a game—and that deserves some respect in my mind. If people don't like them, that's obviously their prerogative, but little of what has been said negatively here sounds like constructive criticism to me. It sounds like bitching.

As for BGT not being a good training ground: you know what I learned on? Qbasic. No, obviously that's something I wouldn't publish anything in, but I did make some crappy small games in it and, believe it or not, some very talented advanced programmers managed to make a functional FPS engine in it. To squeeze that much out of an extremely limited code base like that is programming way beyond my kin, but there you go—proof that it's more about the tenacity of the developer than the code base they use.

BGT is limited, but that's what separates the wheat from the chaff right? If you truly care about developing more complex games, you'll do it one way or the other. But most RPGs, side-scrollers, and RTSs don't require you code 3D sound. Why would you make things more difficult on yourself if that's all you want to do? Maybe you find out you want to do something else later. Great; find a way.

Is the market flooded with simple games? Have you taken a look at the mainstream market lately? Sure, it's more noticeable when the pool is smaller, but there are way more games in any market than any one person will ever play. If someone likes card games, and they obviously do, then, great, they have plenty to choose from. If you want more than that, support those who are developing more than that.

I want a long form RPG, so that's what I'm trying to develop. Unfortunately, I'm only one lazy person with few talents, but instead of crying over how few there are on the market, I'm trying to do something. I also supported things like Manamon and A Hero's Call, not because they were the end all, be all of games, but because I personally feel making it worth people's while to develop the games I want is far better than complaining about what they gave me. Even if VGStorm or Out of Sight Games never develops another game, if people see the support they got, maybe they'd also feel like it was worth their while to make a go of it. Maybe they end up making the big game everyone wants. But if all they see is how much crap people get, then why would they want to put themselves through it?

If I'm over simplifying things, it's because they appear to be overly simplistic mob mentality. Don't just tell me I'm strawmanning the position. Explain the position better.

If a position requires some knowledge of passed history then spend a couple sentences summarizing it because the alternative is sounding like baseless moaning.

If people don't like BGT, fine, don't use it. If some want to spend life looking down their nose at people who do, great, I hope they enjoy their small circle of cronies.

If you're wrong, you're wrong.
You can follow me on twitter @s_luttrell and an almost never used Facebook account at skluttrell.

Thumbs up +4

2018-05-19 15:29:13 (edited by defender 2018-05-19 15:30:43)

Yeah that's why I cringe when I see jonixters third thread this month comparing two languages, yet nothing has happened for 2 years now, not just saying him either, he's just the most obvious, it's all over the place, and hell I get it I get hung up on that when buying a new computer or suggesting an electronic of any type for someone else, but damn just like, figure out if your even cut out for that kind of thinking first guys... Then start coding in something generic enough so that your not put into a niche for ever.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +1

2018-05-19 15:36:29

I feel like our problems are due to being a tiny community with a crappy economy embedded in a larger world with far more to offer. It's like Mom and Pop stores closing when Wal-mart comes to town, because Wal-mart has way more resources, creates a bunch of jobs, and carries brands that people recognize all over the nation. If you're a skilled salesperson in such a town, do you start your own business, or do you jump on the next recruiting campaign from Wal-mart or a giant ad company? One takes capital and connections and involves lots of risk, and the other not so much. If you can afford the startup costs and the risk, and you know the right people, maybe you can succeed at going entrepreneur with those skills. If your market is a thousand poor people and your funds consist of a few years of birthday money you saved, maybe you're better off offering your skills to Megacorp, Inc.
You might have noticed the occasional article about Brain Drain, where people with high-earning intellectual-esque skills leave their poorer, less densely-populated hometowns or even home countries, and go to where all the big reliable companies are. Individually, that emigrant is making the decision that maximizes their well-being. Collectively, this takes those skills, and the wealth they generate, away from their points of origin, leaving said points of origin even further behind.
In the same way, people who care about audio games are few and lack resources, and anyone capable of making high quality games is probably better off working for one of those Silicon Valley Titans. Repeat for a couple generations of games, and we get this thread.

P.S. I thought BK3 was made with HSP?

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

Thumbs up +2

2018-05-19 15:52:52

@61, it was.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-05-19 16:09:08 (edited by defender 2018-05-19 16:10:35)

Oh I thought he said he wrote it in BGT, well, he did right marina break and screaming strike in bgt at least LOL.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up

2018-05-19 17:02:13

Yup! As I stated in my last post, it seems that people will continue to argue about programming language this and programming language that. lol Well, to each their own, I guess. All I have to say regarding this technical back-and-forth controversy about BGT is that I just don't care! If someone makes a game in BGT, and you're proud of it, then you've accomplished more than the majority of this community. Besides, not everyone has a fancy Computer Science degree, or programs for a living, or spends a lot of their time learning about libraries and arguably low-level programming. I mean, seriously! Some of us just want games. smile I wouldn't consider myself a game developer. I do, however, work as a software engineer, and if I had more time on my hands, I'd gladly write games in C/C++, Javascript, etc. As I stated earlier though, game development is quite a different skill set that involves good game ideas. I sure don't have these game ideas! smile
I hope that my previous post wasn't implying that we owe nothing but appreciation to our developers. I am 100 percent for criticism. I am, however, a firm believer of constructive criticism, not this wining and childish complaining. I'm not saying that you guys on this forum post are doing such a thing, but I've seen many instances in which many of us in the blind community dismiss something without even giving it a try. Then, we immediately jump to the complaining bannwagon, as it were. This is not just for games, but also for general apps, accessibility requests, etc. Perhaps I exaggerated a bit by suggesting the compliment sandwich idea. smile I was just attempting to highlight one of the many ways one could address issues to a developer.

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If you want to add me to Skype, my name is lozano.edgar.
Please let me know that your from the AudioGames community if you wish to add me on any of these sites.

2018-05-19 17:26:04

I'm for games... that actually work. Simple as that. I'm not thrilled about having to add exclusions into windows defender either. If you program in C++ and your game is buggy, I'm not going to blame C++ because the developer didn't do a good job at debugging. I think BGT tries to be more than it is, a full-fledge programming language, but its really just a scripting language trying too hard.

I think these people who bring out these games also don't know the first thing about debugging. You know what one of the facets  of programming that separates out the mediocre or average programmers from the really great ones? It's their ability to debug, their ability to think of all the edge cases, code for as many as they can, then debug the ever loving hell out of it. In BGT, you can't really optimize your code per se, I mean there are things that you can do, like dictionaries being really slow, you can just use arrays. But generally, BGT handles all that, and that's fine, I'm just saying, if you ever got to the point where you needed that lower level access, you don't have it. Then what do you do? You either live with it being the way it is, or you port to a different language. One thing as well, the MSDN (Microsoft Developer Network) is freaking huge. You can find anything on any development or coding topic, namespaces, classes, how to use them, documentation that isn't confusing, is well explained, etc.

I could make a game too if I grabbed a bunch of publicly available classes, grabbed some sounds from across the net and plugged them in like wiring stuff up to switches, then tweaking a few values.

SO my problem with this is that people are flooding the market with these really bad games that have serious quality issues. I would like to see more games that actually seem like someone gave a damn about them while they were being developed. And yes, debugging is part of the development process, it is boring, monotonous, tedious, yes. But its freaking vital.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

Thumbs up +1

2018-05-19 18:27:08

Skluttrell, I also started out with QBasic!  big_smile  I have such fond memories of it too.  The first real game I ever made was a little dungeon crawler RPG made with it, and kids spread it around the computer labs on floppy disks.  Good times, good times.

Starting on something simple should lead people on to bigger and better things IF they are the kind of person who can handle them.  As it was stated earlier (I forget who said it), if this first stepping stone was removed (BGT), many of the people using it wouldn't have jumped in to master C++ instead.  BGT will capture the interest of people who would not otherwise make the larger step into a more complicated language.

I'm also against the claim (when it's made from time to time) that BGT teaches bad habits or methods that won't transfer into other more mainstream languages.  We wouldn't make this claim about anything else.  No one has ever tried to stop people from playing Sound RTS stating that the controls are so different from A Heroes Call that the player would have to completely learn the new game from scratch.  We learn new things all the time, and no one cares how the last thing was done.  If there is some overlap in controls or concepts, cool, but the only people I ever see refuse to do something because it's new, are stubborn children or ancient 90 year old people.

As you learn more languages you become a more well-rounded programmer.  This only really works if the languages Are different.  Learning 2 languages that are 90% the same does nothing for you.  Also any time you are limited in your tools/supplies, it makes you more creative.  Give kids a table of random items and task them to create something, and you'll exercise their creativity and improve their minds.  Give them all the tools they could want and the same task, and they are no better for it.  There is absolutely a benefit to new programmers when using a language that has limitations, simply because it helps expand their way of thinking to problem solve.  Not all will learn that lesson, but then again those are probably people who would have crashed and burned using any other language too.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

Thumbs up +3

2018-05-19 18:31:51 (edited by defender 2018-05-19 18:37:14)

So I guess, if we didn't have BGT we wouldn't have so many crappy clones but, we also wouldn't have the chance that some of the coders who worked on them may someday do something better either? Yeah that does make sense actually, I haven't really seen it yet but we should give it time...
Either way, we may not have had Oriol's games if it weren't for BGT I'm not sure if he knows another language or not, and it's difficult to understand the impact that these, all be it often crappy games made with it, have made on others in the community that could do something better with it, and I am actually pretty sure that's happened...


So now the question is, would you rather have almost no new games, or a bunch of pretty crappy ones, and honestly that's slowed down lately, and a few decent ones? Because most of the old hats left when they finally realized, correctly, that they couldn't make a living making audiogames, and when enough had the same idea more followed, so now we have the new, less skilled generation, and no one is really to blame accept maybe pirates who have the ability to pay for it  and just don't, but I really can't believe that's a big section of the community anyway... And those who are able, but unwilling to pay a higher amount do to the small market size so that the dev can actually break even.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +2

2018-05-19 20:02:10

One reason though that I and others have been pushing to get BGT out is because of the AV exclusion. No one likes to install an AV program for cyberprotection of themselves, then realizes they have to possibly compromise that protection in one area just to play an audio game. We hardly have to do that with any other app in existence, unless your a pentester and are testing penetration testing viruses, so why should we have to do that with audio games? We move away from BGT, we get rid of that problem completely. And yes, debugging is an absolutely majorly huge part of development. In fact, other than coding the app itself, its probably the largest and most lengthy (in time) part of developing anything good. If you don't debug, or lack the knowledge to use debuggers (and BGT doesn't exactly give you tools to even do that), your product will be crappy, buggy, and shitty, simply because when bugs crop up they might be one of those really hard-to-find ones, and it'll take you months to even figure it out and then possibly a lot of time to even fix it (especially if said bug is a subtle one in game logic). So until we move to languages that actually offer worthwhile debugging tools, we'll never get truly good games, period. The BGT releases might look awesome, and might be awesome, but you'll more than once have to put up with crappy bugs developers just can't fix.
@66, you don't need to master C++ to write a game. You don't need to master any language to create a game. A good game? Maybe. A game -- any game, though? Nope. Look at .NET, for example. You can write really good games, and software, in it, and you don't ever have to become a true master of the language who can remember the entire MSDN. You can learn as you go. That's probably a much better way of learning, anyway: learning as you go. If you try and consume everything at once... you most likely won't be very productive because you won't know what to do.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-05-20 02:11:53

@post 59, that pretty much sumed up everything I was going to say after reading throgh this whole thread. So I will just say that I am in full agreement. Constructive criticism is all well and good. But much of this thread, which reflects what many of the embers here consider to be constructive criticism, is nothing more tha moaning about the same thing which has gone on for years. I haven't taken place in the goings on mentioned here, but I've definitely seen all of it happen and all I can say is, if the petty arguments and squabbles are what people consider to be constructive criticism, I would definitely have second thoughts about developing anything. I won't touch the programming side of the conversation, as I know next to nothing about it.

@63, yes, those games were coded in BGT. But if yu look at those games, they are both examples of games that are fun, all be it simple. Marina Break is much more complicated than anything else people have put out in BGT which mainly consists of shalow side scrollers and similar. Marina break, I think, is an example of what someone who is creative can do with BGT if they figure out a way to stretch the limits. And yes, the bk series was coded in HSP.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-05-20 02:26:25

Yeah I wasn't saying we were giving much constructive criticism on this thread, just that we have allot of times in the past for new games and still do.
That's not what this thread is about IMO... So I don't think that's really bad, but I know how we could scare people off who don't read all the posts.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up

2018-05-20 02:53:20

True that. However, that doesn't change the fact that however much constructive criticism is given in the first couple posts, especially for online games it inevitably degenerates into the kind of needless attacks and b****ing and moaning we are all too used to seeing.

regards,
assault_freak

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2018-05-20 04:18:37

Wait, Marina Break was written in BGT? I've seen HSP DLLs in it and the EXE is only 278 kb. BGT executables are almost always 800 kb or more.

Philips SAA1099

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2018-05-20 05:59:17 (edited by defender 2018-05-20 06:09:03)

It's true, that does happen, though it usually takes a pretty long time if that game isn't just a generic clone, the kind of game that attracts young kids that don't mind it you know, their naturally immature about feedback and greedy for more because they don't know better, at least most of them...
Their is also the language gap, a demanding and terse post can often just be the result of limited vocabulary.
And if a dev can't see through those guys and pay attention to the respectful people, the ones with the opinions worth listening too, than they won't survive in the mainstream world if they put anything out their, possibly unless it's to another, less desperate  niche community.
It must ware on them after a while, I totally get that and I've heard many devs say as much, so I think it's just a human thing, but it seems unfair to paint the people who are trying to have an actual discussion about it with the same brush, their by undermining their input.
The first few posts were pretty winy, I chalk that up to frustration and jadedness, and the backlash was kind of unsightly, but look where we are now.
If the naysayers had successfully shut down the thread, than we wouldn't be having this constructive exchange right now.


Point is, your really not going to get through to the people who cause most of the problem anyway, immature, and often low in English skills, because of the age and language barrier.
Frankly I think we're pretty forgiving as a community, at least the core members, and I realize that that's been shifting lately so I agree that we should be watchful as to not let it swing too far the other way, but I still think that most of the incidences of this problem are directed towards the less scrupulous devs, and not the hopeful newcomers.
Some exceptions do exist to this (average needy asshole not worth listening to) template, but I've seen them get shut down from all sides quite quickly on many occasions, and sometimes it also comes down to a misunderstanding.


I still do wish we had a more welcoming community, but these are kind of the people we're stuck with like it or not, and unless we want to put some harsher, more subjective rules in place to try and curb the entitlement, pestering, and pettyness, and then get enough mods on enough of the time and on the same page to actually enforce them, than we're just going to have to police it our selves like we have been doing all this time, and try to be the louder voices.
Thankfully though as I said, the worst of it is usually confined to the clone slash shitty  derivative threads, and if you want to blame someone for that you can blame the mods for not shutting them down faster...

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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2018-05-20 07:52:09

I'll hop in here and put my thoughts down...

1. I feel people do treat certain developers like gods, like they can do no wrong and nothing is their fault. By 'people', I mean the people who latch on to a certain game and are blind to its faults no matter what, or make excuses for issues with  a game.

2. I do feel also that there's no fine line between developers and players, since gaming as a whole got brought up, paid, full time devs do not as a rule go on forums and socialize all the time with players, or get to be friendly with their player base. I do feel that's a big issue too though as well.

3. I also agree with Ethin about getting rid of BGT as well.

4. I'd argue too that instead of trying to clone mainstream games, audiogames should do their own thing.

I mean. Swam's a zombie FPS much like DayZ or 7DTD
Redspot is an online FPS like....well.....most online deathmatch FPSes
Stw is an audio crafting and survival game, which.....I can name 50 off the top of my head
Warsim is...much like any 80s/90s RPG
AHC is an RPG like any JRPG from the SNES era or 80s/90s DOS RPgs
Manaman is early gen Pokemon, just skirting the edge of legality according to Ninty's idea of applying legal smackdowns.

Also I do think people are too excited for a game, forgot who it was who mentioned the 50billionth Space Invaders audiogame and people raving about it, I agree, I'll admit, I'm cynical and I expect zero from audiogames, so if an audiogame impresses me and carries on past a certain point.....it has to b something good. Or: That new car smell, what happens when the new car smell fades?

In other words I do think people don't critique games, and then you have the subset of people who think pointing out flaws in a game is somehow wrong and attacking a developer personally, or shitting on the dev's coding ability.

F.ex. if John Doe releases a game, I get it, I play it and say hey, feature X is broken and for reasons Y and Z, there's going to be people jumping in to post that I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm on about or I'm (hilariously) somehow playing the game wrong.
Lastly, I do think audiogames are trying to do too much with what they are though.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

Thumbs up +1

2018-05-20 09:53:17 (edited by nyanchan 2018-05-20 09:55:11)

I just wanted to point out that Marina break was written in HSP. I only wrote Screaming strike in BGT though, I left from BGT after that because its dll support was not enough for me. It was actually more serious problem than you would actually think; I absolutely needed advanced dll support for the Japanese screen reader and my previously accumilated codebase / resources.
However, I also want to point out that BGT is much faster than HSP, BGT can handle objects and local variables while HSP almost can't, BGT can garvage collect while HSP can't, and there are many many many other weak points in HSP.

I really tend to miss direct messages. If you want to contact me privately, please send an email instead of a direct message.