2018-12-12 16:39:12

As someone who has been outspoken about the blind and who is blind himself I would like to get your take and tell you things I have noticed. Now I don't want to get in a flame war but these are my personal views.
1. relationships between the blind I think are lacking. Most of the blind men and women do not actively engage in relationships with each other. Most of the blind men I have seen are very lonely and most of the blind women I have seen don't want to even give them the time of day.
2. College is the answer for all. I have noticed that in the blind world that they push College as the answer to all the blind a one size fits all solution for employment wile failing to ignore the fact that the ADA has been passed for years and there has been no drop in unemployment for the blind. Also the amount of blind women vs men in college among the blind or disabled. Wile I have not been able to find data on this it seams that in my findings that the blind women are leaving the men in the dust.
3. Focusing on small petty issues. By small I mean the fact that said person did not allow your dog to ride in a car that seams trivial to the A. I. some day replacing workers like the blind in areas of production and manufacturing.
4. I would ask you what are we as the blind not focusing on?
If there is anything else I failed to add in the post please bring it up. Like I said these are my views and things I have noticed over time through my many interactions with the blind both in person and over the Internet.

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2018-12-12 16:56:43 (edited by Ethin 2018-12-12 16:58:36)

It seems, to me, like your focusing far more on issues of relationships of blind men and women (but not trans, WTF) instead of other things. For one, I'll remind you that blind men and women are not obligated to stay within the extremely isolated world known as the blind community. They are free to date or have relationships with whomever they please.
Second, college indeed is becoming more and more of a requirement these days as the world of technology grows. Many blind people turn towards technology both as a necessity and because (it seems) that, more than likely, blind people are interested in technology, as it is most likely their lens of seeing the world.
Finally, your point about the ADA is of the assumption that it was there to fix all our problems. That was not its goal. Its goal was to (hopefully) raise employment opportunities. Its poor enforcement, combined with the poor enforcement of future laws like the CVAA, is most likely the reason employment of blind people is low; employers know that the government is slow to act, and usually doesn't enforce the laws appropriately, or plays favorites, thereby spurning the entire point of the legal system even being there, so they've stopped caring. Add to that the fact that organizations like the NFB are pushing far too hard for blind employment and companies just could care less about the blind community because those organizations make us look like winy assholes. As such, its up to us as individuals, and not those organizations (which really need to go to hell), to show those companies that do reject us because of that outlook that their assumptions are wrong.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2018-12-12 17:20:47

hurstseth405 wrote:

1. relationships between the blind I think are lacking. Most of the blind men and women do not actively engage in relationships with each other. Most of the blind men I have seen are very lonely and most of the blind women I have seen don't want to even give them the time of day.

Judging from my own experience, and from all the different topics on the forum on dating, it isn't so much women who are blind don't want men who are blind as it is exactly what Dark says, the culture of the men needing to be the ones asking the women. This is somewhat less true regarding blind couples because there isn't that nonverbal communication gap, and I know plenty of blind couples who make it work just fine.

hurstseth405 wrote:

2. College is the answer for all. I have noticed that in the blind world that they push College as the answer to all the blind a one size fits all solution for employment wile failing to ignore the fact that the ADA has been passed for years and there has been no drop in unemployment for the blind. Also the amount of blind women vs men in college among the blind or disabled. Wile I have not been able to find data on this it seams that in my findings that the blind women are leaving the men in the dust.

College helps definitely as a blind person. Since most entry level jobs are inaccessible, having the degree is helpful when looking for meaningful employment. The issue with college is, you really need the right degree to get into the right field. Education, which was my major, is very difficult to break through prejudice in the hiring process. People who are blind and successful, seem to be in insurance, computer science, or law. Yes the ADA has helped, but the ADA does not change people's minds just like there are still people who are racist, there are people who don't think blind people are capable, and some law passed in the nineties isn't going to make them think otherwise, it just makes them hide their prejudice behind, "hiring someone with more experience." Your last point about women leaving men behind in higher education though, that is true across the board, not just in the blind community.

hurstseth405 wrote:

3. Focusing on small petty issues. By small I mean the fact that said person did not allow your dog to ride in a car that seams trivial to the A. I. some day replacing workers like the blind in areas of production and manufacturing.

As someone who just had this issue with Uber yesterday, I'm not sure your reasoning behind why a driver not allowing my service animal is not a huge issue? I rely on Uber to get me to work. How do you think employers would feel if several times a month you showed up late because, "I had access issues with my Uber driver," before they get sick of it and fire you? Or especially in my field of massage therapy, my clients expect me to be there on time for their appointment. this goes back to people's attitudes toward the disabled.

Seeing as how the people who are blind in manufacturing, unless you're working for the Washington Lighthouse for the Blind, in my experience are generally in sweat shops, working for not much more than minimum wage if they're even making minimum wage at all, I'm not sure where you're getting this the AI are going to take over their jobs. There is so much potential in so many other fields, it's just a matter of breaking down the barriers to getting hired, and making the one or two things in those fields that are not accessible accessible.

Honestly, most blind people I know are either unemployed because they make more on their benefits than they can at the jobs they are offered, work in call centers, are social workers, lawyers, or working with computers. I know one person in insurance, and plenty of massage therapists as well. Oh, and I know one person who got into education, but they ended up teaching at a braille jail, so despite their success, that's not where most people in education will end up, or want to end up.

All of this boils down into blindness being a minor issue, and society being the largest contributing factor to the lack of success among the visually disabled.

thanks,
Michael

2018-12-12 17:48:27

I can't really comment on any of the specific points made here, however...
I feel like it's groups like the audiogames forum that are the forward thinkers in the blind community. When it comes to societies, I feel like they've failed us especially from a local standpoint, I feel like it's us as individuals who might be pushing the community forward. It's a bit of a shame really.

2018-12-12 18:39:13 (edited by Jaseoffire 2018-12-12 18:44:29)

Okay. Point 1. I really can't comment here. Beyond my expertise as it were.
Point 2. College has become a one-size fits all for society in general here in the western world. Not just post-secondary, mind you, but specifically university it feels like. This is where I disagree with post 2. It's not necessarily college that's becoming more required. The reason why it seems that way is,because we've been focusing on send all of your kids to college. No matter what. I guess that might be a more U.S. mentality, though. See, what we need are more people still doing post-secondary, but taking the time to learn skilled labor jobs. Either associate's degree stuff, or otherwise licensed professional sort of work such as plumbing and HVAC. That tangent aside.
Point3 I mean, that sort of behavior has seemed to become a lot more common lately in general. Kind of sad really. One of the major reasons why things just feel more toxic and depressing lately, I guess. Also, the latter half of this point seems to contradict with your second point. That aside.
Point 4 I mean, I don't know. We should be focusing more on developing better methods for us to get into more of the in demand fields that I discussed above, I think. It would give blind people an edge going forward, if we could prove ourselves capable of working as electricians, plumbers, and so on without you know, creating a terrible fire risk or something. LOL!!!
(edit) I think Aaron kind of hit it on the head there. It would be nice if the various support organizations would focus on more development of better ways and technologies for us to advocate for ourselves, and competently do these jobs. I know they do to some extent, but as effective as group advocacy can be, personal advocacy tends to be more amicable and allows for better understanding rather than just fear.

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2018-12-12 19:06:06

I'd also show some sensitivity towards guide-dog users, @OP. For them, having your dog not allowed in the uber is not a petty issue like you described. Just sayin...

2018-12-12 21:43:15 (edited by Chris 2018-12-12 21:53:16)

College is unfortunately something that's being shoved down everyone's throats. College is not the be all end all solution for absolutely everyone. I have no plans on attending an actual College. I'm in the process of obtaining CompTIA IT certifications which should hopefully get me into the industry assuming I can get past all the misconceptions.

I'm actually curious to know what's so great about guide dogs? Maybe it's just because I'm not a dog fan, but I've never understood what was so great about them. Sure, they can help you avoid certain obstacles, but the dog won't get you from point a to point b without you knowing where you're going. The dog won't tell you what's around you in great detail. Is it simply a case of people wanting a dog that also acts as a guide, a method of gaining attention from others, or both? I'd really like to know. Personally, I think it would be much more valuable if we invested in some kind of super advanced GPS and object recognition system that would provide us with detailed information from the environment around us. Imagine having something that could tell you how far away and in what direction a door was. As you turned and got closer, this information would be updated accordingly. I'm imagining something like AIRA but without the human element and using the much more accurate Galileo GPS and/or indoor navigation. It would essentially fill the gap we currently have of not being able to glance around and quickly learn what's in our immediate environment that everyone else takes for granted.

As for the lonely part, I'm not sure. Maybe it's because in a lot of ways we aren't fully equal to our peers. We can't fully participate with them in things like video games and other aspects of society.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2018-12-12 22:27:28

A cane won't get you from point a to point b either, although if you do the route often enough, the dog will know where you are intending to go. My house is on the middle of the block with no tactile landmarks around it, and I taught my dog to target the driveway. Navigation is faster than with a cane, at least for me, because I don't need to find everything around me. She can find empty chairs, garbage cans, doors, stairs, curbs, we're working on finding my wife's car, and we just zip through crowds like they're nothing.

I took the train and went down to the city for a class several months ago, and all I did was tell my dog to find the door outside. I hadn't been to that train station in ten years, so while I have the vaguest idea of where I needed to go, I just told the dog, and away we went. Two minutes later, we found the door outside.

Guidedogs aren't for everyone, and they come with their own set of challenges. For the most part, they make life easier in a lot of ways though, and I think on the whole, they are worth it in my particular case.

thanks,
Michael

2018-12-13 01:00:09

1. Can't comment. I'm gay,, and to be blunt, I avoid most of the blind community like the plague. I have my own small (ish) circle of friends and mostly acquaintances. Most of the blind relationships fail because (1) Sleepovers on team talk. (2) Not communicating in a long distance relationship and (3) Most importantly, not meeting in person.

2. College is not the end all. In 2018, it's be at the right place at the right time if you're blind, expect to have many misconceptions about you and work to fix them.
3. These days, I'd take a dog over a kid. Most guide dogs are cleaner, more well mannered, and enjoyable to be around than most of these little brats who deserve nothing more than a good old smack on the bottom. Or maybe the parents should be the ones to blame. Still, though. I'm old school and think a kid on an iPad at the age of 4 is simply stupid. The kid doesn't want to play outside when there are things to be shot and blood spilling while he isn't even out of diapers yet right? That's extreme, but while we're on issues of that nature....this is why so many these days are depressed. Get outside. Enjoy the sunshine. Learn a few things that don't have to do with University or college - learn some labor skills. I know blind people that  do woodwork and carpentry. Work on cars. If you have an interest in something, go after it. Try and get some experience with it, even if it's just as a hobby. Nothing is stopping you.

Sure, GPS would be amazing. There are so many smart devices around these days. Who knows what they do? Where the information goes? Hell, in chrome and firefox alone there are minuscule packets of data going to all sorts of various places. Your smart tv, smart speaker, smart coffee maker, smart plugs and anything related to that transmit data all over the place to make your life easier. What happens if that got intercepted and used for bad things? Sure, there are doubtlessly tons of backup plans, but with a guide dog, (which I do not currently work with), the dog is always there. It has nothing to do with social interaction and has everything to do with getting to the destination more efficiently and quickly.

With aira, I'm still relying on the internet, but it's an actual human. This is what is wrong with our society today - everyone wants AI for this, AI for that. There goes even more jobs down the drain for folks. Getting a job? With the reliance on anything but human interaction, how can we actually get a job this way when it comes time for a face to face interview with a human being? What happens when that AI goes down?

So many parents of blind children just shove a computer in their hand and want them out of their lives. That's no way to learn social skills and by the time the child grows up, that's all they know.

Something something something insert canine related comment here

2018-12-13 04:48:29

Post secondary institutions seem to lack the information and materials to offer proper courses for the blind in a variety of fields. There's no central database or resource for them to tap into, and I've seen some studies around that highlight how siloed universities are from each other, so what ends up happening is they roll their own local solutions in obscurity. This ends up holding back progress because you get a patchwork knowledge base and limited opportunities. I mean, with how hot things like 3D printers and machine learning are, you'd think there would be more accessible tools and interfaces for the blind to work with them right? Or robotics? Drones? Genetic Engineering? No? Nothing? Accessibility typically comes after the fact, which all but ensures that whatever is the cutting edge will be out of reach. Whats needed is the right tools so that people don't have to wait to participate in these things, but take the lead, to employ themselves and push the envelope. If those tools and techniques don't exist and nododies making them, then we should make them ourselves with the full intent of kicking those fields ass.

@Chris
The open source [After-Sight Model 1] closely matches the kind of device you describe. Its a portable raspi based device that utilizes a vOICe style sonifier combined with object and facial recognition systems, the projects stalled out unfortunately, but i've been digging more into it lately. Alternatively there's also the Vision-800 smart glasses that go for around 190$, someone in russia loaded The vOICe on it and out performed a pair of Argus 2 retinal implant recipients in an accessible technology competition. There's some more information on it on [seeingwithsound.com].

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2018-12-13 08:47:26 (edited by Dark 2018-12-13 12:19:31)

I agree with Drums here about relationships, universities  and guide dogs. I'll also note that problems for men specifically with finding relationships and being accepted in university environments are not specific to blind people either, particularly since I'm afraid in all of the minority based identity boosting that's going on at the moment blindness tends to get completely forgotten.

As regards relationships specifically, I'll also note that specifically looking for relationships "within the blind community" is no better prejudice wise than looking outside it. My lady happens to be blind, this was not a requirement of either mine or hers for a partner, things just worked out that way.

As regards universities and employment, the problem ultimately has nothing to do with education specifically so much as the fact that employers have  no knowledge of, or insentive to employ blind people anyway, university qualifications or not, and that at the moment prejudice can go unnoticed. Sadly though the solution to this is a social, not technological one.

~As for the blind community getting bothered about so called "little things"

Well would you have said that black people in 1950's America who were not allowed to ride on busses or eat in the same restaurants as white people were being concerned about little things?"

I think not. Again, this is fairly simple prejudice. There isn't however really a solution since unfortunately the public perception of "disability" is so tied to either being in a wheel chair or autism blindness never gets a look in, that when disability prejudice is mentioned at all, which is increasingly less common these days given that promotion of minority interest has turned from something positive into a much more major focus on pure misandry.

To get onto a happier subject. I'm afraid I don't really see the arguement that guide dogs are "purely social"  or that what they do could be replaced by technology.

Firstly, yes, guide dogs do find there way around obstacles. Could you do this with a cane? Well of course you could, however which is easier, simply having your dog look around instantly see a way through given obstacles ahead and follow along, or having to concentrate, recalculate, reassess and perform all those logical operations necessary with a cane. This is also not to speak of crowds, where a guide dog will revel in the challenge of weaving in and out between a huge number of people in situations where using a cane would be dire.

The energy factor and difference is staggering.

Secondly, finding places and things. One thing to remember, is that a guide dog is a thinking and logical creature and can perform the same sort of category judgements that a human can.
For example, the word "seat" can apply  to a massive category of objects, from  a garden bench to a plush arm chair. When a sighted person sees a "seat" their indirect perception autoamtically performs operations to see if the base characteristics of that object fulfill the properties of objects within the category "seat"
this sort of snap judgement and assessment is bloody hard to program into an Ai, even if you could have a camera to perform it.

Yet a guide dog has the same capacity to learn this sort of judgement as a human can. Not just seats, doors, counters in shops, exits , bus stops, road crossings,  post boxes etc.

Furthermore, a guide dog will understand where you are going and go there without need to correct. You need to "know" where your going yes, but you don't need to constantly monitor every tiny little thing, indeed learning routes with a guide dog is far easier than with a cane because while your not having to constantly look out for obstacles, pedestrians, your  relative to  traffic etc, which then leaves your over all mental capacity free  learn landmarks and turnings, or look at a satnav or whatever.

Lastly, while, as I've said a guide dog is massively useful for mobility in ways that go far beyond a long cane, don't under estimate the social or companionship element, since yes, sighted people often would rather interact with a blind person's dog than a blind person, which is inconvenient and annoying, but its a fact of life, and if a guide dog can help you get over the "whaaaa! he's blind" syndrome and finally approach that moment when people actually start thinking of you as a human being, all the better.
Oh, and if you are stuck on your own, well at least you've always got someone to talk to, particularly since dogs are largely much nicer company than most people big_smile.

is a guide dog for everyone? Certainly not, there are definite down sides, not the least is having to constantly take care of a dog, carry food with you, worry about where your dog will spend, never get a lie in due to having to get up with your dog etc.

There are also people who are just not themselves dog people, and don't get on as well with  which is fair enough.

However, I would always say if a person could! possibly have a guide dog, they should think about it.
After all, if a guide dog really was no help or was just equal in capacity to what you could do with a cane? Why would anyone  bother going through the actual hassle of having one in the first place?

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-12-13 21:21:19

I'd say that programming the judgement necessary into an AI that Dark talked about is impossible at the moment. Yes, we have image recognition and all, but to get that accurate we need millions of sample images and terabytes of hard drive space. That isn't cheap. Not to mention the computing power required. We can train computers to beat grand masters at Chess, but making them so intelligent as to make judgements like that is far beyond us. Unlike Chess, or Go, life does not have a set of rules that you are restricted by, and anything can happen.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2018-12-13 22:46:47

Actually, if bench, chair, armchair and all other such things are programmed into AI, and if we get to a point where AI can park your car for you - we can already do this - and weave in and out of traffic - same deal, look at the way driverless cars are going - then this is very possible.
Also, I personally revel in crowds as a cane user. I can hear where and how people are moving enough that drafts, sound vectors and other such things inform how I move. do I ever whack shins? Sure I do. But I'm pretty gentle, and I don't mind, and most others don't seem to much either. I don't find myself wanting to find specific things in a way that would necessitate a dog, so a lot of the advantages I already have or don't care to have.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2018-12-14 09:24:51

AI recognizing these things is still a very new technology, though, whereas dogs have been around about as long as humans, and have proven reliable enough for the time being. Also, isolation does bad things to people (I keep reporting this bug, but the devs insist it is a feature), and people with disabilities are unfortunately more vulnerable than average to either isolation or coddling (often both), and dogs are supposedly a huge help with that.
I mean, I'm still not getting a dog, but promising new tech has such a long track record of being late or exaggerated that I'm blaming no one for not trusting AI vision until testing a robot guide dog personally. GPS still tried to send me on a complicated route, and told me to go in the opposite direction of the road it wanted me on, when a simple "go to the nearest road, walk for a mile, and the destination will be on your right" would have sufficed. (Then my phone died before I got there, and I didn't get a chance to charge it for, like, 8 hours.).

看過來!
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    George... Don't do that.

2018-12-14 10:27:45

GPS systems can also be hacked and redirected by a malicious opponent as well. That is the problem with AIs -- its reliance on technology to work the way it works. With dogs, you don't suffer that problem.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2018-12-14 11:07:27

Who even decides "you know what sounds fun? Hacking someone's GPS to get them lost. Bwa ha ha, evil is so much fun!"? I mean, sure, there are some genuine moustache-twirlers out there (although I imagine many of them are teenagers who also jump on Reddit to complain about how they don't have enough of a moustache), but if we know who they are, we can... I dunno, call the cops, or send them a small-area EMP, or ... go beat them up? That's what you do to moustache-twirlers, right?
No, wait. The correct way to punish a moustache-twirling villain is to remove their moustache. Now, if only there were a way to do that without them having to hold still for a couple minutes... Veet would probably cause chemical burns, lasers are slower than razors, and does wax even work on moustaches? hmm

Though, thinking about it, it is interesting that none of the interesting expansions to space exploration ever seem to mention defense against hackers. Unless they're criticizing Independence Day. It's just kinda handwaved as "of course the software people will plan for that". It seems like enough situations where big companies are vulnerable to CS101 hacks keep popping up that this should not be taken for granted. But what do I know? I just spent a paragraph talking about whetr or not GPS hackers have moustaches, and if so, how to forceably remove them with minimal damage.

I'm sure there's a way to bring this back around to the subject of college and how Twitter makes every mountain and every molehill sound equally apocalyptic, but I'm not sure what it is.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-12-14 23:59:52

Dogs can't be "hacked", it's true. But AI won't go snuffling for food, won't randomly chase squirrels, won't get sore feet, won't get distracted by other AI. And yes, I know most guide dogs don't actually chase squirrels, but I hope the point is made. Dogs are good, and they do many things insanely well, but they are biological creatures. Any argument you can make about AI being hackable, I can turn around and flip on its ear to say that dogs suffer marked decreases in reliability under certain conditions. And I'd think that, depending on the tech, it's more likely your dog gets sick than that your AI gets hacked.

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2018-12-15 01:05:50 (edited by Chris 2018-12-15 01:06:25)

The simple fact is I don't want to take care of a dog. When I don't need my cane, I just put it down and it waits patiently until it is needed again. The same would go for an object recognition system. I wouldn't mind using services like Aira, but the prices are unsustainable for some.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2018-12-15 01:23:18

Chris wrote:

The simple fact is I don't want to take care of a dog. When I don't need my cane, I just put it down and it waits patiently until it is needed again. The same would go for an object recognition system. I wouldn't mind using services like Aira, but the prices are unsustainable for some.

But that is also YOU. Not everybody shares the opinion that an AI would solve everything (or even most). There are plenty of good things - see Amazon's new Alexa enabled Microwaves, that benefit blind people. But there are almost just as many bad (especially if we're talking about technology being relied on to navigate *that* heavily).

A prime example. Driving down a highway and the gps says to keep going. So we did. It said to turn right on a 2 lane road, we did that. It says that the destination is on our right. It's supposed to be a restaurant. Instead, it was a river.

The restaurant was 15 miles in the opposite direction, the maps for the area were updated 3 months ago, and even using my phone and google maps, which is usually foolproof,  netted the same results. Good ol human intervention saved us. And this isn't the first time. This was also just outside a big city.

Isolation is really a huge issue in the blind community. Stay isolated and away from people and what happens? How do you socialize when it actually comes time to interact? I can't use the self checkout at my supermarket because it's a touch screen. Am I butt hurt about that? No. I go up to the counter, say hi, how are you doing today (a seemingly unheard of thing  in this day and age, despite it being common 20 years ago) and god forbid I even said Merry Christmas before I left. The cashier actually sounded surprised that someone said it when she responded, in a slightly startled tone, well Merry Christmas to you too!

Not wanting a dog is fine but let's not get ahead of ourselves and start replacing all companionship with technology. Read the Demon series by Daniel Suarez. The likelyhood of it actually happening is minimal, but what if it did? What would we do?

I do agree that a dog getting sick is about 100x more likely than AI being hacked, but with the increase in technology reliance it's going to be interesting going forward. Self driving cars are going to be super cool because of all the idiots driving down the road on their cell phones. But there are countless issues. Who is liable if the self driving car smashes into someone and kills them? What if a person, due to sheer idiocy, tries to run that car off the road? Either way, I look forward to  that progressing. I might even be able to afford one of them in my lifetime. I just hope there are still some mechanical features like door locks and actual physical latches that I need to use a door handle for.

Something something something insert canine related comment here

2018-12-15 02:39:08

Well, I think most guidedog users would agree, if someone doesn't want a dog, they probably shouldn't get one. I wouldn't force anyone into it because it is a lot of responsibility. For some people it is worth it, for others it is not, and that is okay, and probably better for all involved.

Oh, and access is still an issue with canes, I saw this on my facebook newsfeed the other day.

I was told by someone identifying as a security guard that he could not allow me to walk through this shopping center with my long white cane unless he got approval from his supervisor. He insisted that my cane was dangerous to other shoppers, especially children, because I could trip them. This man sounded African-American, so I was quite surprised that he was trying to deny me access to a public facility based on prejudice and segregationism. I generally find that African-Americans are very understanding when I complain about being denied access to a place of public accommodation because of my membership in a visible and identifiable minority group. African-Americans have suffered tremendously from this practice.
After he had mocked me for a while, and told me multiple times that he had served in the military for many years to defend our country, as if it made him more credible, two more men, one of whom claimed to be the supervisor, arrived on the scene. He became substantially less aggressive, which I appreciated, because he certainly made me anxious with how he yelled at me. It's not fun being surprised by someone's presence when they start shouting at you.
The supervisor and the third gentleman insisted that I created danger, especially for the children, who I could trip with my cane.
No amount of explaining the Americans with Disabilities Act and my right to enter places of public accommodation, and no amount of explaining the simple fact that my cane is not dangerous when used properly, would satisfy them.
I asked the supervisor if he would be willing to give me his information and a written explanation of their choice to invent their own laws for their business. He refused and insisted that he did not have to give me anything. He reiterated that he would not allow me to come into the international marketplace and hit children with my cane.
It is too bad that I could not get a citation of their special policy, but I will keep searching for it. If we are really such a menace to society, I will do my very best to educate the blind community about how dangerous we are.
People often tell us that there is no discrimination, but they do not walk in our shoes. When they put a blind person in a sweatshop making seven cents per hour, it comes from the same thing. When they rip a baby out of its mother's arms in the delivery room because that mother is blind, it comes from the same thing.
The real problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. It is the misinformation and lack of understanding which exist in society. Given the proper training & opportunity, we, the blind, can lead normal, productive lives. Average blind people can do the average job in the average place of business as well as our sighted counterparts. We want to be treated as equals, and we must be freed from the shackles of low expectations.
International Market Place
International Market Place
4 stars
Shopping DistrictShopping Mall
Yesterday at 3:39 AMHonolulu, HI

thanks,
Michael

2018-12-16 11:40:53

Hello,
Sorry for entering late this conversation, but I just found the time to do this. I will try to answer your questions one by one, and I will answer where I have something relevant to say. 
Question 1: Relationships between blind and visually impaired people in many countries are discouraged due to the concept of disability they have. One of those arguments which pops up most of the time is: if I live everyday with a sighted person who helps me with anything I need, how in the world am I going to live with a blind person who has the same needs as me? This sighted person obviously is a member of their family, or a roommate. Please note, this approach is not held by all the blind communities in the world. That’s what I’ve noticed with many adults in my country and some articles I’ve read about other countries on this matter. One important point to be considered is the connection a blind individual has with his family. That’s where the initial approach I mentioned above starts to be constructed.
Question 2: colleage might not be the best answer to employment but it is one of the viable answers. Anyway, I don’t simply see colleage as a means of increasing your job opportunities, but also many other aspects. One of those is socialisation. When you go to a colleage, you become part of that community. You can participate in different activities such as debates, clubs, open lectures, excursions, student councils, student associations, and many more. What I’ve noticed, particularly on this forum as well as many other communities I’ve had the chance to meet or to learn about, is that most of the blind individuals are very lazy and passive to deal with university or colleage. Even if they decide to be part of colleage, they become completely detached from that community. To elaborate more on this, I’ve noticed, quite a lot of times, that they are not willing to read long lectures or dedicate long hours to reading books, analyzing and reflecting on different articles or afairs, prepare for final exams as well as write dissertations. At the university where I am currenly studying, I don’t have any form of support in terms of learning materials or accessible books. I have to scan most of the books I need to work with in daily basis and proofread them for spelling errors page by page. This semester, for instance, I have managed to obtain from my professors only two books out of four. The rest has to be scanned. On the other hand, what I’ve seen from universities in Europe or America, books or lectures are provided in electronic formats and scanned if existing only in hardcopy format. At this point, I don’t know what prevents many blind students from entering colleage.
Question 3: Placing much, or too much focus on trivial issues. Yes, I’ve seen this, particularly when they want to emphasise that they are blind, or that they don’t want, or are not willing to try something new, or cooperate. One of my friends was in Germany last year where she had to attend a conference along with a number of activities focusing on the interaction between blind and sighted people. At one point, the sighted participants started playing a game which was not quite accessible to the blind counterparts or perhaps unfamiliar to them. Most of their reactions were like: hey, I can’t do this; can’t you see that I’m blind? My question here is, why didn’t they try playing the game in the first place instead of immediately saying I can’t do it? That’s where question three makes sense in my opinion.
And question 4: What aren’t we focusing on? Or, what are we lacking? I believe contact with the sighted community. This should not be seen only from the judgement and the perspective of sighted people, but also from our own perspective as blind people, too. It is true, and I can’t deny that the sighted community hesitates to have contact with the blind community, but we do hesitate, too. We are those who should react in these circumstances. To be more specific, let’s suppose two citizens (first sighted and the other blind) meet in a work environment. Before beginning their interaction, both will ask questions like how do I look to him or her, what is his/her opinion for me, what is his/her consideration for me, and so on. The point here is, who, between these two, needs to be clearer in regards to the question he/she has in mind? Of course, the sighted citizen; he/she has not had as much contact as the blind citizen has had with his counterparts. That’s when the blind individual should consider reacting according to the situation. From my experience, I have noticed that most of the obstacles created during the initial contact between a blind and a sighted person are overcome through communication.

Sorry for the long post!

2018-12-16 16:18:28

To the person who was refused access to a public place because of their cane:
First of all: holy crap, I have literally never heard of that before. I'm sorry as hell it happened to you.
A piece of advice for next time: I trust you don't travel without some sort of communication device such as a cell phone? Call the police. I'm not even kidding. If you are being told that you can be barred from a place of public business because of your white cane use, that is breaking the law. Police may grumble, and the supervisor/whoever else may grumble, but the ADA exists for a reason, and you have every right to make waves. I'm not saying making waves is always best or should be your first line of defense, but it's definitely an option. Failing that, another thing you could try is to literally keep walking into the area. Short of literally grabbing or attempting to detain you, they aren't going to be able to stop you. Call their bluff, one way or another, if that ever happens again. Don't be aggressive. Move steadily and confidently without any sign whatever of a show of force. Do not clench your free hand into a fist, do not yell and do not deliberately charge one or more of the people present, as they could then potentially put hands on you in self-defense. If you do that, or if you call the police, or if you do both, you can create a whole lot of unpleasant backlash. It's not fun to have to be that person, but if you want to champion the rights of the blind, then sometimes it's necessary. It's the same thing - albeit much more serious - as when I go out with friends, and a waiter will ask, "What is he having?". I will almost invariably say something like, "Excuse me, but I'd appreciate it if you spoke to me directly. My eyes may not work, but the rest of me is just fine. If you really aren't sure, it's totally okay to ask me how to proceed. I'll welcome a question directed at me far better than someone trying to talk over my head.". And this usually results in embarrassment, awkwardness, even annoyance for certain people, but frankly, that's just how it's going to be sometimes. I don't have to be quiet just because it might make someone uncomfortable. I quite obviously don't have to be a total jerk either though.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2018-12-16 23:16:50

Just as an update on that cane issue, the place commented back on their facebook saying this was not right, and they wished to get in contact with them to see what they could do. They are also instituting more ADA training. Social media shaming does work.

thanks,
Michael