2018-11-04 18:49:59

thanks for making me laugh today
bye the way im referring to post 2 tongue

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2018-11-04 18:50:58 (edited by defender 2018-11-04 18:51:27)

Kinda crazy how the forum has just turned into a chat client, essentially...
You have to admit, this hole thing has been amazing for visitor numbers tongue

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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2018-11-04 18:54:52

24: It is because those rules are vague and do not cover things well. The moderation team isn't the problem. It's the set of rules plus transparency that are the big issues here.

2018-11-05 00:16:47 (edited by defender 2018-11-05 02:57:08)

Hey all, I'd like to apologize to you and retract most of what I said.
Do to how fast the threads in site and forum feedback were updating, I couldn't keep up with them and missed all the overly harsh and ridiculous warnings that Jade was giving out.
I now understand the paranoia for the most part, though I still don't think he'd delete or edit a post, but I also didn't think he'd do this, so my hunches clearly aren't worth much... big_smile
I'd particularly like to apologize to Aprone, as I now see that he was being allot more respectful than you might expect given the circumstances  , and just doing what he could to help fight the fires that Jade was lighting, since he had no way to remove Jade or even overrule him after stepping down.
Paul I still believe that creating a new topic was kind of pointless, but I think you were entirely reasonable in everything you brought up, so sorry for doubting you.
I want ag.net to recover if possible, so I still hope for civility, but Jade has lost all of my support and I hope that a mod will remove him in accordance with the communities wishes, and reverse any of his unjustified warnings.
If we are to have a future, than I believe it probably can't include Jade as a moderator.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +3

2018-11-05 00:27:10

All cool. It may have been too early I'll give you credit, but I couldn't hold it anymore so I apologize.

If you want to get in touch with me you can follow me on Twitter
have a nice day.
Paul

2018-11-05 00:31:11

I  also would like to add that we want audiogames to recover as much as you want. Thing is, that some of us (me  included) hope that by speaking out loud and protesting people behind the scenes might consider and try to do something about it. I don't know if this is a right or a wrong thing to do, but since we seem to have tried everything why not big_smile

If you want to get in touch with me you can follow me on Twitter
have a nice day.
Paul

2018-11-05 01:32:46

I have sent a message to the mod list concerning Jayde's behaviour, I also wish for him to remove Amine's warning. I have not asked for Jayde to be removed, nor will I do that at this time. He's still learning the ropes (or should I say, perhaps it's time we adapt them), and he's going to help with creating a system that may be slightly stricter but also fairer, something I've not been able to do.
As it stands, Jayde is taking a style of a stance that we deserve, but do not need right now. We need a slightly less stricter, but similar, sort of thing.
So we'll give him a chance.
Because, he's not necessarily our hero in this. He's a new mod. A guardian, a protector, perhaps not quite The Dark Knight.
I feel like Jayde's heart is in the right place, and I feel we do need someone who can be strict and take it, and we've now seen that Jayde is willing to do that. But for now, I wish for warnings to be reset.
See this for reference, maybe not the hunting part though, I'm not about to hunt Jayde down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c_H45kt1_8

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2018-11-05 01:44:44 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2018-11-05 01:45:38)

just like starting a blog post and completely bombast about it on this forum was not the best, most polite, or even the better way to accomplish something, raising those points at this specific moment by opening yet another post falls just right into the same spot. So what can be done? let the whole thing breathe for a few days, level up, re check what you are going to say, and use something we all love to have in every one of our lives called discretion, or prudence. That is all that can be done.

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2018-11-05 01:49:46 (edited by TJT1234 2018-11-05 01:55:40)

A suggestion I just thought of:

Since Jayde was given moderator status, he has been very active on the forum—arguably the most active moderator this week. Some moderators contribute so infrequently that it is possible to forget that they are actually moderators, and it is also possible that their limited visible contributions mean that they are not fully abreast of what is transpiring on this forum.

While I am not suggesting that a moderator must spend all of their spare time on the forum, I think it is important that moderators are required (and I stress the word "required")—even though they are acting as moderators voluntarily—to dedicate an agreed-upon portion of each day to actively monitoring topics that are likely to become heated, and for moderators to share the burden of giving out moderation warnings and banning users.

If moderators feel that they are unable to dedicate the time necessary to diligently monitoring the forum, give out warnings and ban users, perhaps their suitability as a moderator should be re-evaluated. I am not saying that their status should be removed—perhaps they still offer valuable contributions on the moderators' email list—but their publicly visible title of moderator should be amended as they cannot be relied on to police the forums.

Disclaimers: I am not referring to the actions of any moderator/s of this forum; I am only offering my insights about the activity of the moderators of this forum in comparison to other online environments in which I participate. I am also not attempting to suggest that any particular moderator is unsuitable, nor that another user would be a more suitable replacement.

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2018-11-05 02:01:20 (edited by defender 2018-11-05 02:05:19)

Aaron I disagree, and if those warnings were what you consider to be (what we deserve) I may be misunderstanding you here but, I don't think I want to be part of a community where you have to watch your self that friggin carefully.
And yeah, his heart probably was in the right place, but it didn't make much of a difference in the end anyway, that's what happens when you try to give the hole class detention for a few miner infractions and expect them to just go with it, especially when those types of behavior weren't even considered an issue just a week before.
There is a difference between still learning the ropes, and incompatible personality, and at this point I think it's the latter.
I don't hate Jade as a person or anything, even if I've lost some respect because of this, but I do not understand someone who thinks like he did and I can't ignore the damage that was done.


And TJT I think if you changed part of each day to part of each week that might be more realistic, I agree with the sentiment though, but I think right now we just need good mods period.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +3

2018-11-06 03:00:37

Better question, do we have any female staff at all? If so, where are they? If not, we need to fix that. I don't think we should be excluding women from staff positions anywhere. This just contributes to the evidence that there is a lot of sexist behavior going on in this community. Women deserve a voice too. That's why I try to keep a balance on my forum, so the whole system doesn't seem rigged. I don't like this male dominated business one little bit. I'm not trying to cause trouble at all. I'm just saying what I think, and what I think is the female users deserve just as much say as the males.

2018-11-06 03:20:48

Nightshade was—and perhaps still is—a female moderator. Mirage, another female, also had access to the moderators' email list.

However, I see your argument—though undoubtedly important—as irrelevant to this discussion as this forum is dominated by male users. Until there is greater participation by females on this forum, I do not think that having a staff dominated by males is something to be concerned about.

However, I do agree that in circumstances where there is an approximately equal amount of male and female users, there should be representation from both females and males on the community's staff.

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2018-11-06 03:22:14

Please explain why you think there is sexist behavior in this community. We all know about the Walter/Lori issue, but are there other examples?

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2018-11-06 03:40:55

It isn't just here. Most of the sites I've seen have mostly, if not all male staff. It makes me personally feel uncomfortable. I don't know that I speak for all women here, but if others have received unwanted advances in private, I can't blame them for not showing up. Male domination is a problem. Not just here, but everywhere. This is the 21 century people. Women have rights too. I wouldn't be putting this here if I hadn't seen blatant examples of just such a situation in places. I won't name names. If you are in fact reading this, then you know who you are. We do have female users. With all the creeps in the community, it's no wonder they don't come around a whole lot. No, you can not flirt with me after I say no. No, you cannot ask to do anything inappropriate with me. Women aren't just playthings for men to put their hands all over. That's what we get by letting men run pretty much everything. They think no one will stand up to them. Well, their days of thinking that are over. I have male staff members on my forum, but they are balanced out with an equal number of female staff members. This needs to happen everywhere so one group can't overshadow the other.

2018-11-06 04:53:28 (edited by defender 2018-11-07 21:31:24)

Eliza I believe this is a non issue that you've decided to try and turn into some kind of statement, which has derailed the topic for no good reason. I see no (exclusion) anywhere and invite you to give some examples, no one sat down and said, I'd like to add this woman to the mod staff but, damn, she's got a vagina so never mind... That's absurd and not based in reality, as you said, it's the 21st century.
If more females stepped up I'm sure no one would have a problem with them being mods as long as they did their jobs correctly, I have no chip on my shoulder, and wouldn't mind at all. It's not about gender it's just simply that not that many have wanted to do it, because again not that many are here. (age 15 to 25 males have always been the majority of gamers for a hole handful of reasons, of which some are undoubtedly based in actual sexism) but the only sexism I see here is yours, if we're going to nitpick about it, so I suggest that you do something more productive and beneficial with that outrage and try to get more of your own gender into audio games instead of insulting the majority of users with broad unfounded claims.
And in the Walter and Laury case, the only (potential) sexism (I can't read Dark's mind) that I saw was towards males (believing the female victum even when counter evidence was provided).
But, I'm not going to be unreasonable and make a big deal out of that when it's clearly the secondary issue anyway, and I've generally come to except human nature for what it is when it comes to gender roles. E.G. an upset woman makes most men want to defend her with all they've got even if it's to detriment, men tend to work the more dangerous jobs while women tend to work the more social ones, because both genders have strengths and weaknesses determined for the most part by our biology and secondarily by our role models while growing up.
Progress is slow, and while shaking off traditional gender roles has been happening at least in much of the developed world, it's got both good and bad effects and lots of push back from previous generations, who are naturally scared of change. Attempting to shame people into it or talk over them (especially when they've lived allot longer than you have) instead of confronting them with logic, appealing to their connections with females in their lives that they respect, or encouraging both genders in a positive way at a young age to treat each other as equals is just bound to make you look like a disrespectful shitstarter, and hence do damage to your cause.


Look, I'm not going to pretend I understand what it's like to be catcalled just minding my own business walking down the street because I wanted to wear something nice looking or less hot that day (obviously stuff like that can happen to anyone decently good looking regardless of gender, just ask hansom looking gay guys, but it's still more common for females) or to have everyone assume I'm just some lower level employee and talk over me in a business meeting, or to have to deal with the sexual advances of a superior while risking my job, but I'm guessing you at this point in your life don't have to deal with that very much either, so take it from the more matured women who actually have to tackle it every day and fought for respect all the way. See what they think, because most of them seem to have a much  more logical and nuanced view of the situation, and  don't seem to like all the young, inexperienced women fighting on their behalf and putting words in their mouths online (unknowingly undoing their progress) very much, even if they often sympathize with the anger and appreciate the exposure of the issues.


I don't know what kind of shitty experiences you've had with men, and I'm sorry for any you did have, but it's just unfair and illogical to paint us all with the same brush, or even the majority of us, after all we're brothers and fathers and sons too you know... Allot of us have many women in our lives that we respect and care for, and the majority of sexism still existing seems to come from not yet matured males (go figure right?) jaded middle aged females, and ignorance born from what previous generations had hammered into their heads as children.
That doesn't excuse anyone from their responsibility of course, but I think your seeing malice where their is none either based on your own personal experiences, or on bullshit you've been fed by bitter people who don't want to be part of the solution and would rather lash out indiscriminately instead, because they never learned how to adapt and overcome.


I know that even the developed world still has a ways to go before true parody, and the Rhetoric, buzzwords, snap judgements, and lies from the media aren't helping to actually solve the issue beyond the short term satisfaction of movements like "#metoo" which I mostly support by the way, but in comparison, the real world, aka the second and third world, are still much worse, and I think they really need are attention more.
Ask your self, what's more important, bitching about manspreading as if it's an actual issue, or the wage gap (their are many reasons for it that don't have to do with sexism in most cases) or screaming about rape culture in the US when date rape is a complicated he said she said mess in most cases and more traditional rape has been held with such universal disgust by humanity as a hole for over a century now, and before that for thousands of years, but with many double standards like spoils of war or slave rites.
Or instead, helping to rebuild a school for girls in Africa after some regressive fucks went and bombed it, or fighting for better recognition of Endometriosis in the medical community and workplace, or trying to get more females into STEM at a young age, or, to put a bit of a spin on things, supporting change in the courts to hopefully stamp out the maternal bias in child neglect/abuse cases.


That's my two cents, and while I can't speak from first hand experience with many of these things as a straight guy living in the first world, many others are just logical facts when you step back and look at the big picture while trying to detach your personal emotions on the subject as much as possible.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up +4

2018-11-06 05:24:15

Just want to reach out and say that sexism has no place on the staff team, and never will. A person's suitability for the team will not be based on their gender, whether biological or chosen. The fact that all of the current team (minus Mirage/Nightshade, assuming the former is counted by folks and the latter ever comes back) is male is not an issue of females being excluded. Frankly this is just sorta how it turned out. If there are female users who fit our staff requirements, their gender will by no means get in the way. Heck, it won't even be considered one way or another.

Defender pretty much slam-dunked this one. A bit wordy and rambly, but who am I to criticize? lol

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-06 06:08:11

Non-issue wouldn't be quite the word to use, but off topic for the current discussion, yup.


    Also to be fair, staff seems to be chosen out of prior performance as a poster on the forums.  Half of the people here don't quite have names that easily translates into what gender they are, unless it was evident in postings beforehand.  Also 'm going to assume the gender inbalance on the forums might be lightly correlated to the style of audiogames being produced.  We really do not have many that tend to traditionally (or is the word stereotypicaly?) have a large female interest, so we might not attract a large female audience.  Granted, they do exist on here, but the few I know don't quite have forum names that make it obvious, nor do the males. 


    This kind of makes the mod selection process independent from some cases from bias of that sort.  You judge it out of the selection's prior ability rather than detractors such as gender.  Like I mean, Jayde above sounds like a name normally given to females, despite being a neutral name (I still forget this sometimes).  Any staff imbalances rather comes from our poster's gender distribution rather than any intentional bias.

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2018-11-06 06:20:13 (edited by defender 2018-11-06 06:24:07)

I meant it's a non issue because it's not a concept based in reality, at least not the problem she proposed, obviously sexism in general is an issue still no matter where you go in the world, but I think she just wanted to vent, which is fine, but I don't like such uninformed views being trumpeted without at least attempting to confront them with reasoning, lest someone impressionable sees them and makes the same mistake.
And yeah, it's hard not to ramble big_smile I got really into the anti SJW stuff for a while after being raised quite liberal, and I just have too strong of a personality to not follow the words of someone convincing. I hated what I was becoming (judging nearly everyone I met and parroting what I heard) so I backed off and made my own observations in order to not become incredibly biased and isolated.
so yes, I have definitely thought about this allot...

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up

2018-11-06 06:22:01

I guess I'll step in. Mainly because I'm confused. Is nightshade really not a moderator anymore? I know Nocturnus Stepped down, but Nightshade both still has the moderator designation, and I never saw an official post from her resigning. If I missed it, I'm sorry.

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2018-11-06 06:46:34

When I opened the call for beta testers, I received about 140 entries. ONly about five or six of them were female. It has nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with a lack of balance between male and female gamers.

2018-11-06 07:42:41

I mean, some of that can be traced back to sexism, video games are for boys types of commercials, most early games were heavy into combat and save the world/girl fantasies of one type or another, and even now it's still overwhelmingly the case as far as I know, though puzzle games are getting particularly popular lately and their are allot more management/sim/artistic/low violence strategy games than their used to be, especially for mobile devices.
For what ever reason, Fortnight and PUBG are also attracting allot of females, even if their still well outnumbered, probably because it's team based and therefore more social? I'm not sure...
That, and, even though I don't think it's as wrong as people say it is, I can see how it would be intimidating/insulting, all the fighting games especially with incredibly sexualized female characters. Though at least devs seem to be trying to make them more than just eye candy in this decade, their usually pretty powerful in their own right rather than a reward for the main character, and have more of a backstory.
Though it's far from black and white, considering most female gamers presented with a character creation screen will tend to make their character unrealistically beautiful/sexy from what I've seen (Miriani is a good example of this in our own community) just as guys will tend to make their character powerful/cool looking and a god like example of physical fitness.
It's kind of hard to find legit opinions/experiences of female gamers, because most of those who play the same games guys like don't see them selves as thinking differently anyway, and it's usually framed by the media in a pretty vengeful or patronizing light when their interviewed, so their answers seem kind of forced and extra careful from what I've seen.
Otherwise, I'd just say listen to them tell it, like I did about women who do jobs guys normally do, or are in high powered business environments where any weakness is taken advantage of on principal.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

Thumbs up

2018-11-06 08:45:12

I wouldn't have any problem if a woman would be a moderator honestly. To be honest though, I haven't seen night shade for a while.

If you want to get in touch with me you can follow me on Twitter
have a nice day.
Paul

2018-11-06 11:19:26

Okay people. I am here to answer the original question: Can something be done? The answer is yes. Something can be done. I don't know how, and I am in no position to tell people how to run this forum. All I know is something has to be done or else this forum will fall apart. Mud slinging and accusations aren't going to bring us to a solution. Now is the time for unity. Now is the time for us to stand together. Now is the time for us to stick together as a community and find a workable solution. But we cannot continue to be divided. So let us leave the fighting, the accusations and the harsh words and let's rather work towards finding a workable solution that will benefit us all. We as a community must continue to thrive, and we can only do that if we stand together. So I beg you now, stop the fighting and accusing, and let's work together as one community to find a solution.

Thank you.

From the ashes we shall rise, from the darkness we shall walk and in the light we shall thrive

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2018-11-07 01:55:36 (edited by The Dwarfer 2018-11-07 01:57:52)

Notice how wining does nothing though. How about make it happen rather than telling people that "oh, having more male staff is bad! Wa wa wa!". Because actually no, that's discriminatory. You're stating that having a board with majority males running it is a bad thing. I'm sure if any females actually stepped forward and presented themselves as mod oppertunities, (Nightshade would be an example of that if she's still around), then we'd have more. These "feminists" who sit and wine about stuff that has quite easy, apparent, and obvious fixes should really not be surprised that people find them contemptible. I'm blind. We all are. However I'm not sitting there going "wow. I've looked and none of these companies I've heard of have blind CEOs or well known blind executives. That's ablest!" Want to know why? Because i'm not making the change happen. I'm not witnessing some other blind individual try and get denied based on their disability. Step forward to become a moderator, women, if you actually have a problem with that, rather than complaining that there are no woman staff. Because as is apparent here, condemning people for what they're not guilty of is not the solution. It just makes you look self-entitled, and no more credible than the blind people who demand free games. You're right. It is the 21st century, so make your voice heard constructively if you want progression. Oh and also, no mod selection should be based on what someone who is self-entitled wants to make them happy. It should be a selection of all people, females and males alike, and the qualified mods should be decided upon to fit their qualification. It doesn't matter if they're a woman or a man, so long as they can do the job. Thankfully this world works like that for the most part so that we're focused on expertise rather than filling unwritten quotas and making the stupid happy.

ElizaBaez wrote:

It isn't just here. Most of the sites I've seen have mostly, if not all male staff. It makes me personally feel uncomfortable. I don't know that I speak for all women here, but if others have received unwanted advances in private, I can't blame them for not showing up. Male domination is a problem. Not just here, but everywhere. This is the 21 century people. Women have rights too. I wouldn't be putting this here if I hadn't seen blatant examples of just such a situation in places. I won't name names. If you are in fact reading this, then you know who you are. We do have female users. With all the creeps in the community, it's no wonder they don't come around a whole lot. No, you can not flirt with me after I say no. No, you cannot ask to do anything inappropriate with me. Women aren't just playthings for men to put their hands all over. That's what we get by letting men run pretty much everything. They think no one will stand up to them. Well, their days of thinking that are over. I have male staff members on my forum, but they are balanced out with an equal number of female staff members. This needs to happen everywhere so one group can't overshadow the other.

Twitter: stevo399
Website: stevend.net
Have a nice day!

2018-11-07 02:03:04

I happen to identify as an attack helicopter, Why are their no  attack helicopter mods on this forum?
REEEEEEEEEE!

All the seats are taken in the house that makes the rules.
All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools.

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